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fairladyz432

Rear wheel bearing install issue

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This may be simpler image for seeing the loading faces.

If the outer flange (right) is hitting the body then the inside or  outside race on the outside bearing (green) is too narrow or the bearing is deformed.

 

image.png

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I do notice that there is a difference between the old bearing that fits fine and the new one that I installed. Clearly there’s a difference in thickness but not sure if that can make any difference? 

D801C0BD-D780-4E85-8744-13D98389AE6B.jpeg

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Is the bearing still inserted in the casting on the inside?  Check for a gap on the outer race, where it should be seated.

There are so many different, conflicting, opinions about what the problem could be that you're probably just going to have to learn the basics and figure it out your self.  That link  I provided is pretty educational.  If you focus on how the bearings work and what the purpose of the "distance piece" is, and think about how the balls ride in the races, it will probably click for you.

This caliper is cheap but works well.  I have one.  Take some measurements.

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/performance-tool-4601/tools---equipment-16488/tools-17919/measuring-tools-16659/measuring-calipers-19579/caliper/w80152/4614478

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10 hours ago, fairladyz432 said:

there’s a difference in thickness but not sure if that can make any difference

That difference in thickness doesn't make any difference with respect to the problem you're having. Just larger balls in one bearing. From an outside "user" standpoint, doesn't change any of the external geometry.

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3 hours ago, 240260280 said:

These are the two measurements that need to be the same on both outside bearings.

Pedantic, I know, but ... Only the yellow needs to be the same measurement on the outside bearing. The ratio between race length and extended flange length won't affect the final location of the mating surfaces. As long as the total comes up to the same total width, the flange could be 90% of the width and a tiny thin "bearing" portion could make up the other 10%. The mating faces would still be in the correct locations. 

It would be the wrong bearing for the application. but it would "work".   Haha!   I'll tune the OCD down now.   :)

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Sorry. CO you are right. I did not express it quite correctly.  Here is the point I was trying to make:

If the outside shell is stepped back, then the flange will draw in too far and bind. I mistakenly used outer race shell size rather than the step.

 

image.png

Edited by 240260280

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Ok what I did was I removed the new outer bearing and put back the old bearing. Same results if I tighten too much. Is the rear bearing similar to say the front bearing where the tighter you torque the nut the harder it is to turn? Right now, I have the rear just torqued enough for smooth rotation. The nut looks to be locked in where the old axle nut would be originally. Any more tightening it will begin to lock up. Also, are you supposed to torque down the axle nut when the wheels are on it does that not matter? Thinking if this doesn’t work I have no other option but to bring it in to a shop for inspection. Did everything I could for something that should be bolt on and go in my eyes. 

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14 minutes ago, fairladyz432 said:

Is the rear bearing similar to say the front bearing where the tighter you torque the nut the harder it is to turn?

Did everything I could for something that should be bolt on and go in my eyes. 

The front bearings and back bearings are completely different.  Shape, "races", cages, principle of how they work, how to adjust them, everything.  The main similarity is that they roll and need lubrication.

If the wheel rolls with weight on it you could probably drive slowly to a shop that knows.  Any auto shop should be fine.  There's nothing special about the Z bearing assemblies.

You could buy a new set of bearings and try again too.

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Might have to just get a new set of oem bearings and give that a try. Is there a difference which side the wheel flange goes or are they made to fit both driver and passenger side ? Are they marked at all? 

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2 hours ago, fairladyz432 said:

Is the rear bearing similar to say the front bearing where the tighter you torque the nut the harder it is to turn?

No. The rear bearing's "tightness" (preload) should be pretty much independent of the nut torque. And there should never ever be any visible metal to metal contact.

I'm clearly grasping at straws here, but I have heard about severe rear wheel bearing failures where the outboard bearing actually seizes and starts spinning the outer race inside the strut housing. When this happens, the bore where the bearing is supposed to be a tight fit is all wallowed out and the bearing flops around in there instead of being properly located. And if it's wallowed out enough, the dust shield might make contact where it isn't supposed to?

With that in mind, what happens if you just drop an outboard bearing into the hole in the strut housing? Does it fall all the way to the bottom of the hole and rattle around down there, or does it require force to get it into place?

Can you please post a pic of where the interference is happening? A pic of the two parts that are making contact?

Also another WAG... I know you have the outboard bearing on the stub axle correctly, but is it possible to put the stub axle in backwards? In other words... If the outside diameter of both bearings is the same, you could actually put the entire stub axle in backwards? You know which side is supposed to get the wheel, right?  LOL   No offence intended... It's a calling.

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And if you already tried your old bearings and had the same issue, I don't think a third (OEM) set is going to render any different results.

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I was thinking about the "wallowing out" issue when I just jumped on here and there it is.  Pretty sure that John Coffey has described it and maybe J Mortensen.  It's a race car problem.

But, that dimension is in the FSM also.  Hate to repeat it, but the early FSM's are excellent maintenance manuals.  Much better than the later years.

image.png

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On 2/8/2018 at 2:56 PM, 240260280 said:

 

 

image.png

When I look at this picture from Blue, there seems to be a washer under the inner hub piece against the inner bearing(shown as white piece on left of lt. blue part). Is that in place? If you left it out it's gonna be too short.

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Yep the stun axle is facing the right way. I’ll take a quick pic of how it’s installed. I just bought a caliper gauge that I will try to measure the races and see if they are within spec. The weird thing is that both driver and passenger bearingings bind or get stuck as I tighten the axle nut so don’t believe there’s anything wrong with the bearing housing themselves. Last thing I think that maybe incorrect are the inner bearings which I think will have to come out for inspection. Really lost at this point. Might even go as far as posting a video just so you all have a better idea what’s going on. 

Also the washer is for sure used with the axle nut. 

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Could be that the axle and/or bearing removal procedure caused a problem.  Bent something maybe.  Did you use a slide hammer or a lever it out with a pry bar.? Maybe everything is right but you just have a small bent area.  A ding.

When looking at Blue's pictures study the blue part and the black "distance" piece.  The purpose of the distance piece is to hold the inner race at about the same distance as the outer race.  The chart in the FSM shows that they calculated a 0.001 to 0.002" preload offset.  That's small.  But there's a "huge" overlap of tolerances, so it almost doesn't matter.  It's weird, not even attributable to translation error, that the numbers don't just match, or they just say that one can't be more than xxx thousandths bigger/smaller than the other.  Basically they just want the inner race and the outer race to be on the same plane, within a few thousandths.

I also just noticed that they typo'ed a 6 for a 5. 

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11 hours ago, fairladyz432 said:

Also the washer is for sure used with the axle nut. 

I am not referring to the washer under the axle nut that is labeled in red. I am talking about the white space near the end of the splines and the light blue bearing. It looks like a washer draw in section

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The white washer in the picture is the noise reducing copper washer used in the 240's and later dropped on the larger/thicker splined 280 axles. None of the washers has any effect on the bearing position once tightened. 

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On 2/9/2018 at 8:01 PM, Zed Head said:

Could be that the axle and/or bearing removal procedure caused a problem.  Bent something maybe.  Did you use a slide hammer or a lever it out with a pry bar.? Maybe everything is right but you just have a small bent area.  A ding.

When looking at Blue's pictures study the blue part and the black "distance" piece.  The purpose of the distance piece is to hold the inner race at about the same distance as the outer race.  The chart in the FSM shows that they calculated a 0.001 to 0.002" preload offset.  That's small.  But there's a "huge" overlap of tolerances, so it almost doesn't matter.  It's weird, not even attributable to translation error, that the numbers don't just match, or they just say that one can't be more than xxx thousandths bigger/smaller than the other.  Basically they just want the inner race and the outer race to be on the same plane, within a few thousandths.

I also just noticed that they typo'ed a 6 for a 5. 

The way I removed the old bearing was by using a slide hammer to yank out the stub axle and nothing was forced so pretty unlikely I damaged something by using a proper tool. As for the inner I just tapped it out with a pipe till it popped out nothing out of the ordinary. I’ll be posting pictures soon as I kind of took a breather on that particular job so I can i get the things I can finish quickly first as I’m really close to getting the whole project finished. This bearing was the last thing I thought I’d be having issues with. Thanks for help I’ll update soon 

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Just an update so might help some ppl out . I ended up taking it to a local shop and what they found was the seal was one of the issues when I installed it. It wasn’t sitting right and the actual inner bearing for some reason was not seated correctly. Not sure what I did wrong  , possibly didn’t punch the inner bearing all the way in before I put the seal on not sure. But all is good now, thanks for all the help. 

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I was recently involved in the replacement of rear wheel bearings for two Z's:
https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/60026-friends-over-for-a-party-in-the-shop-yesterday/

One of the hubs had a similar issue to yours, and we (believe we) traced the problem to a bearing that was pressed in at an angle. It seemed that the bearing (mostly) eventually leveled out and went in, but not before it raised a huge burr inside the hub. And that burr prevented the bearing from seating in it's proper location.

Sounds like you may have had a similar issue. Here's a pic of what happens when you try to press a bearing in at an angle. You can see the semi-circular mark  on the far side where they gouged the cylinder wall that is supposed to locate the bearing. That raised bump was pushing the bearing to one side and not letting it seat square.

I used a hand file to dress the high spots back level:
P1130350.JPG

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Ahh glad I’m not the only one what a pain in the arse it was lol. Great close up pics definitely will help those in need out one day. The mechanic that worked on mine didn’t  notice any damage in the slots where the bearing goes but I’m sure something close to that is what caused my issue. Possibly needed to go perfectly seated in order for it it to be tightened down on an old and worn hub. 

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