Want to "down grade" from Tociko's back to stock ride

[Mn_Z_Man]

2 years ago I redid the suspension- bushing's, ball joints, tie rod ends, shocks and springs. Went with the Tociko HP kit, the blues. Well, after daily driving last summer, I am seriously considering switching back to a more stock ride- for my taste, the HP combo is just too stiff for daily driving. I suspect the springs are probably biggest culprit in the bone-jarring feel. Could I go back to my stock springs and keep the tociko struts, or is that a bad idea? My guess is the ride height would go up due to the heavy gas charge in the struts- true? Should I just go back to stock springs and KYB G2 struts? The only other stock-type strut I can find is Monroe- any one have any experience with them?

thanks

Eric

[Darrel]

I went with illuminas right away because supposedly the hp are setting 3.

As soon as I'm off the track the settings go back to 1.

[motorman7]

When I bought my '71, my daily driver, it had the Tokico 5020 Springs and Illumina adjustable struts. This was way too stiff for me. I changed to the Stock springs but still have the Illumina's. I like this combo much better. It rides about an inch higher. It is still a bit stiff (I have 7/8" anti-sway bars front and back), but very solid.

[jmortensen]

I agree with Darrel. Struts are at least as important and often more important than springs in ride quality. Illuminas on 1 or 2 is what I ran on my street car with 200/250 in lb springs (significantly stiffer than what you're running), and that was fine for me.

I think there are other choices out there too. Bilstein struts will take a little more installation but IME with other vehicles they get the damping a lot closer than most. There are also the Tokico HTS struts which I haven't tried, but sound promising. Disclaimer--I haven't tried either of these but my impression is that they're more appropriately valved. I think the blues have too much compression damping.

If you were to run the Tokicos with the stock springs your ride height would go up because the spring is longer. You are already getting the effect of the gas charge in the strut, but you have shorter stiffer springs now which sag less under the weight of the vehicle. Putting in a longer, softer spring will make it sag more, but should end up being higher overall because of the spring itself. The Tokico is a "lowering spring" after all.

[moritz55]

Here's what I did to get my 240z to Stock Height with Tokico HP Shocks in the links below. Results are a tight ride with nice height. I used Eibach 280z Coils (from MSA) .. rears gave me stock height out of the box.... Fronts, I cut 1 full coil off to lower the front 1/2" or so from stock height. The photos in the link reflect the height after ~20miles put on the car. I have added ~150miles since doing this and the height has still remained with 1/8" of shown in the photos. Rear down 1/8" slightly and fronts remaining as is in the photos.

Read post #4: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36748

Read post #18: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36014

Good luck and hope this helps.

Edited February 15, 2010 by moritz55

[mayitin]

Yes the Eibach and the HP is a great conbination my ride is smooth and still handles great

[conedodger]

Make sure your bushings aren't FUBAR. In my Porsche 914 I have 200# springs on adjustable perches, Koni Yellow adjustables set to full firm and new bushings that allow for full travel of the suspension. The latter is perhaps the most important for street ride comfort. With the shock disconnected, I can push my control arms and trailing arms through their full range of motion. This means that my springs and struts are able to do their job of sucking up the bumps without the bushings sticking. My ride is very nice and the only time you can tell that I have a high performance suspension is when you are pulling a full G in a corner and hanging on so you don't fly out of your seat.

If you have original rubber bushings make sure that they are not "fried" and not allowing suspension travel. If you have replaced with Delrin or Polyurathane, make sure that you have full travel and they are not binding. This is probably the most overlooked aspect of suspension tuning by enthusiasts. If it will not move through its full range all the springs and struts in the world will not help.

[Mn_Z_Man]

Thanks for all the useful ideas. So we're roughly evenly split between springs and shocks-obviously both will affect the ride, its a question of balance between the two. Sounds like the tociko blue and HP spring combo is about as stiff as it gets. So I'm assuming the Eibach springs are less stiff than mine, but stiffer than stock.

How about KYB G2 struts with my Tociko springs? I guess either way I'm in for either new springs or new struts. How is the ride height and quality with KYB's and stock springs? The KYB's are advertised as a lower pressure strut, is it quite a bit lower than the Tockio's (which are pretty stiff)?

One of these combo's is going in, just want to increase my odds of being closer this time, with out getting the "4X4" look I have seen in some Z's.

Also, bushings are all new polyurethane- I'm sure they are contributing to some of the stiffness, hoping not too much cause they were a grunt to get in!

Thanks again. Eric

Edited February 16, 2010 by Mn_Z_Man
more info

[conedodger]

Polyurathane can be contributing to your stiff suspension. My point is that the bushing must allow full motion of the suspension. So, if yours were a "grunt' to get in, that is probably your problem. Polyurathane can gall if it isn't just the right size to allow for the full motion. Delrin can at least be reamed to clearance it so you can have full motion.

I would consider your bushings as the culprit. As I said, my suspension doesn't feel harsh at all but that is because of the full motion of my suspension. Neither the springs or the shocks can do their jobs if bushings will not allow the suspension to turn about its axis.

[Jeff G 78]

Also, bushings are all new polyurethane- I'm sure they are contributing to some of the stiffness, hoping not too much cause they were a grunt to get in!

Well, THERE'S your problem. Poly bushings make or break ride quality. You might try going back to OE rubber on a few key bushings and see if you can avoid redoing the whole suspension. The TC bushings are the first ones I'd replace.

[240ZGL]

I have both Koni shocks and springs, since these were developed when the original rubber bushings were the only bushing available I went with as many new rubber bushings as possible and checked that I had full movement. The ride is firm but not uncomfortable. The handling is out of this world. Shocks are on a 2 setting as suggested by Koni because of the Rally Sport springs. Push down on the car and it's like a rock, but on the road it's pretty nice. The shocks and springs are new, maybe 2 hundred miles on them. Oh and I'm running 60 series tires, so I have some sidewall cush.

[Arne]

How about KYB G2 struts with my Tociko springs?

Not recommended by KYB. Their instructions specifically state that the GR2 line is not designed for use with any lowering spring set, and the warranty is voided should you do so.

That said, I know of a few people who are satisfactorily using KYBs with Eibach...

I guess either way I'm in for either new springs or new struts. How is the ride height and quality with KYB's and stock springs?

Ride is quite good, when used with rubber bushings. Firm and sports-car-like, but compliant. I'm using them with a set of repro Nissan Euro Stage 1 springs, which had a slightly stiffer spring rate (maybe 10% stiffer) than stock. I'm very pleased with the ride.

Ride height issue is more complex. With stock springs, you should expect KYBs to increase the ride height by 10 to 15mm (3/8 to 5/8") over what it was with non-gas strut inserts. The actual ending ride height will vary depending on how much your stock springs have sagged over the years.

The Euro springs I am using make the height info even more complex, as due to what we now believe are differences in the lower spring seat location on the strut tubes for the European delivered 240Zs, the Euro springs (either original Nissan or repro) need to be cut down even to get to stock ride height, even with non-gas inserts.