Carl Beck

Hi Gang: The highest quality Datsun 240-Z's are not taken to the auctions yet. They sell privately, and if they are true #1 or #2 examples, they sell quickly. This past 12 months I have personally seen several #1 and #2 240-Z's sell for well over $25K. (as in most cases I've put buyers together with seller's). Let's not kid ourselves however, true #1 or #2 examples are few and far between. They also command prices that are two to three times the price of a solid #3 car. In 1965 I purchased a 1955 Ford Thurderbird. I was in California then, and like the Datsun 240-Z's most of the 55/57 T-Birds were originally sold in California. So they were plentiful then. I looked at about 20 of them, before I bought mine. It was Red.. had 31K original miles and I purchased it from the Original Owner for $1,500.00. From 65 to 70 I drove it all over the Country... put an additional 90K miles on it. I had purchased a 67 911-S in 68 and started to drive that more, as the old T-Bird was starting to wear out. So I parked the T-Bird, drove the Porsche... and in 1970 I bought my first 240-Z. After a few months of driving the Z - I sold the 911.... and the T-Brid sat in the garage for another year or two... It was very presentable, still had shiny paint, still ran fine... but every time I took it out for spin, something else would break, or wear out... In late 71 as I recall, I sold that T-Bird for $1,800.00. That was about the average price for one with that mileage and in that condition. All during the 70's and 80's the 55/57 T-Birds appreciated very gradually, but very little. By the mid 80's the T-Bird that I sold for $1,800.00 was resold for $5,500.00. The little Birds stayed around $5K to $7K for a few years longer, then it seemed that overnight they jumped to the $12K to $14K range... that was the late 80's as I recall. By the mid 90's you had very hard time finding a 55/57 T-Bird in any kind of condition for less than $20K... by the end of the 90's they were pushing $30K.... The last fully restored 55 that I saw sold, went for something close to $45K a couple years ago. Of course if you had the extremely rare Super-Charged 57 "F" Bird... now you have a $150K car. All this to point out - that our Datsun 240-Z's are following about the same path.... Yes, but you might say..."There were about 150,000 Datsun 240-Z's sold in the US... but only about 53,000 small T-Birds. That's true.. but the market in 55/57 was also less than 1/3 the size. So the buyers that wanted a small T-Brid when they were young, and who are paying the price for one today is actually less than a 1/3 of the size of the market that will want a Datsun 240-Z as they age and can then afford the Z they always wanted. In terms of "limited production" vehicles.. the DATSUN 240-Z is VERY LIMITED in numbers in the US Market. Mid-year Corvettes 63-67 = 72,418.. and you see what they are bringing today... and they didn't rust out!! 67-69 Camero's...725,942 (1969 alone: Z-28's = 19,014, V8's = 178,087 and 6cyl. =65,008) ... and we see what the early Camero's are bringing now.... Truly nice 240-Z's are now in the $7K to $10K range... #2 240-Z's are now in the $16K to $21K range.. In another five to ten years, most of the existing 240-Z's will either be beaters that have hit the junk yards.. or fully restored examples... In ten years you won't find many 240-Z's for less than $40K. Now I wish I had just kept both the 55 T-Bird and that 67 911-S... FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

If anyone believes that they have an Agreed Value, that their Insurance Company will honor without exceptions, and pay in full in case of a Total Loss... on their "normal car insurance policy". Then I would suggest that your read your policy carefully again, and go over it with your Attorney. (NEVER TAKE AN INSURANCE AGENTS word for anything - the POLICY RULES..ALWAYS!) In order for the Hagerty. or any other company, agency etc. to sell "Special Line" insurance policies in any of the States... they have to have certain "special" circumstances NOT COVERED, NOR OFFERED by the Full Line Carriers in that State. Special Line insurance carriers are very limited in what they are authorized to sell in any State, by very strict State Regulations on the insurance industry. Limited use, mileage restrictions, secure storage, certain years of age etc. are all "Special Circumstances" that must be present - in order to sell "Special Line Insurance". None of which apply to Full Line Carriers Policies. In exchange for the special limitations of Classic Car Insurance you get Agreed Values in case of a total loss, and premiums that are normally 1/4 as much or less. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Chris/everyone: The "Black Book" is a listing of values complied from actual auction prices around the country... Most Dealers like to use it when they BUY, because it gives the lowest of values... Lets face it, if a car has to be taken to the auction - it's because it didn't sell on the Dealers Lot to begin with, or it was in such sad shape the Dealer didn't want to stand behind it in case of a retail sale. Given the source of the data being collected and reported - I agree with Chris ... they don't use the term "excellent" to mean anything close to a #1 or #2 Show Car. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Vicky, everyone: 1) The article is written by Keith Martin - he works for Sport Car Market Magazine. I agree with him - an all original, rust free, well cared for 78, with 32K miles, as described would sell for closer to $10K or $12K today. "IF" the seller had advertised it broadly, and waited for the right Buyer to come along. That might have taken a month or six months... So the seller gave up part of the value of the car in exchange for a quick cash sale.. The Buyer got a bargain in this case... I had written him several weeks ago and stated that I thought his listed values for the Datsun 240-Z's in Sports Car Market's value guide was WAY TOO LOW today. Also gave him some recent sales figures for #1 and #2 cars. Secondly - I had to laugh however when he wrote.. "With entry level British sports cars pushing $20,000".... In the Z Car Community we think of an entry level Z as being one that is driven daily... rode hard and put away wet!... with 200K + miles. Try to find a British sports car today that is driven daily by anyone (the thought cracks me up!!) ... Entry level British sports cars, are cars that have been all but fully restored by now... the truth is - there is no longer any such thing as an "entry level" British sports car in America.. OK you might find 1... and if it truly is entry level it will be a $3,500.00 to $4,500.00 basket case... Most British sports cars are relatively rare however, because most of them went to the junk yards when they were 10 to 15 years old. People don't decide to buy a Z because the British Sports Car they really wanted is now too expensive for them.... that thought is simply silly!! FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Guys: As Chris said -it's a concept car. Several different design/styling alternatives or concepts are intermixed there in one platform. You can view it as a display case. The styling of the nose is one thing, the wheel arch treatments another and various parts of the interior are yet still others. You can see the "slab sided" intermix of different body materials as well. I think we can expect to see more plastic body panels on the exteriors of cars in the future. (al la Fiero and Saturn) If you look at pages 9, 10 and 16 of the input we (the IZCC) gave Nissan back in 98 you might see some similar ideas in the case of the interior styling if not the design. Page 16 was our input for the roadster's rear deck and the 350Z came pretty close. See: <http://ZHome.com/OurZ/NewZ.htm TARGET=NEW>http://ZHome.com/OurZ/NewZ.htm</a> FWIW, Carl

If tying the springs together doesn't do it.. you can try doing what Acura did.. weld a solid piece of sheet-metal across the bottom seat frame to support the cushion, then insert higher quality foam. Of course because of the basic shape of the original 240-Z seats.. they will never provide the support that the far better designed Acura seats do. All depends on how much support your body requires. When I was 20, 30 even into my early 40's the original Z seats were fine. But as I grew older, my back, hips and legs required better support for longer trips.. good luck, Carl B.

See: <a href=http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/AcuraSeats/AcuraBeck.htm TARGET=NEW> http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/AcuraSeats/AcuraBeck.htm</a> As you can see in the pictures, the rear of the Acura seats is about the same height as stock, but the area under your legs at the front is just a bit higher. The Acura seats are FAR better than stock as far as driver support is concerned. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA

Hi Don/Arne (everyone): Don originally said; ..."An opportunity to do something better".... it may be Don. Better is a relative term. Better than what? Better for what use?... "Better Handling".... Here again the real question is; better for what driver, under what conditions? Should your 240Z have a rear anti-roll bar (ARB)? That depends on how you want the car to respond and/or ride under the conditions you plan to use the car. It also depends on how you like to drive. That is to say "a good driver handles the car", only when it is not responding the way the driver wants it too - does he fine tune the suspension to meet his needs. Almost everything in a vehicle is a trade-off of one parameter against another. In stock form, our 240Z understeers when pushed hard into corners. A car that understeers might plow nose first off a corner if the driver pushes too hard, but one that over-steers is likely to spin-out of control completely. In the US, cars are considered to be "safer" ie. "better" if they understeer a bit, and most of the cars sold in the US are designed to do just that, as they leave the factory. In stock form our 240Z gives it's driver lots of "margin" and lots of "warning" before it looses adhesion in a corner. (the body rolls, tires squeal and it starts to plow forward). Add that larger front and rear anti-roll bar, stiffer shocks, stiffer springs, wider wheels and better tires..... and it will corner at a higher rate of speed and handle in a more neutral manor... but the trade-off is that when it exceeds it's limits of adhesion...it will also let-go with what seems like "No Warning" at all! So which is a "better" handling car for the average street driver - one that gives you lots of warning and which you can retain control of, or one that you can easily loose control of as it lulls you into that corner at even higher speeds? IMHO - the average person driving a Datsun 240Z back in the early 70's - won't have the nerve to push it to it's limits, and they certainly don't need to start fine tuning it's stock suspension, until they are able to control it at it's limits with its stock suspension. In other words, improve your "handling" skills first, then decide what fine tuning needs to be done to advance the cars capabilities to respond. (as has been pointed out there are lots of options in the fine tuning dept.) If you are using the car mostly for High Speed Auto-X, club Track Days, or even weekend Road Racing.. then yes maybe that larger front and rear ARB is just the ticket. But it would make good sense in those cases, to take some formal drivers training, spend some seat time getting to know how your Z will now handle with its modified suspension... Get some seat time in, were you can spin off the track without serious damage to your car.... As you increase the 240Z's cornering ability, you reduce the time and warnings you had when it was in stock form, before it lost adhesion to the road. Spring rates are another example of trade-off's being made. US Spec. spring rates were most likely the "best" for most US drivers, on US Freeways and Secondary Roads, as well as daily in-town driving. Where the car was used mostly as a second family car, or a highway cruiser (al la GT use). They provide a reasonable trade-off between handling and ride harshness. Stiffen them up a bit, if you want to improve your times through Mullholand Drive, but the trade-off will be a slightly harsher ride the other 98% of the time you are in the car. Keep in mind that something like 94% of all 240Z's produced were sold in North America, and if I had to guess, I'd say that about 10% of those, were actually sold to Customers that could be considered "enthusiast" drivers, or who would actually use the car primarily for "Sport". DATSUN Competition Department existed for those enthusiasts, as did BRE/InterPart, BSR etc.. As close as I can guess, based on Alan's input in an earlier thread, about 3% of the 240Z's were sold in Japan, and based on other sources about 3% of the 240Z's were scattered among 5 different Countries around the world. I would suggest that those units were purchased 90% of the time or more, by sports car enthusiasts, not simply as second family cars. So we see Nissan fine tuning them for the niche market they were in, with slightly stiffer springs, 5spd.'s and lower rear axle ratio's. For these markets these items stock or optional, supplied "better" handling for the majority of their owners. Going Auto-X'ing on the weekends?... Spend your money on better tires.. leave the rear ARB off. Install better shocks with the Euro Spec. Stage I Springs, a thicker front ARB and Torque Sensing Posi.. (my personal Best set-up - you driving style may vary). The bottom line is, if you take the customer base, the driving conditions, and the most common use of the car into account - then I believe that the US got the "best" suspension set-up for the US Market, and I'm just as sure that the other countries got the "best" set-up for their Customers as well. BTW - The original BRE Rear ARB is a more effective mounting method. It runs around the rear of the differential, and does not rely on the thin metal in the uni-body for mounting. I'm not sure who handles them now... Ground Control/Suspension Techniques used to.. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Mike. Hey - it was just a comment on the humor of the situation, and ebay in general. Didn't intend it to offend either the unknown seller, nor lurking buyer. I also did not see, nor intend any "criticism" of anyone with my comments. I felt I could comment, as you have pointed out - I have paid silly to outrageous amounts of money for things I wanted on ebay, only to see another sell for 10% of that amount a few weeks later.. (the rare 25 page Dealer Service Bulletin isn't one of them... but I have an all but endless list of items that would fit). Personally, I feel that paying stupid amounts of money for hard to find items - benefits the Z Car Community because it sends everyone else digging in their garage or attic, to find and rush those rare parts to market.. So I rationalize it that way... All that said - I still find the mental image of dag1955 doling out one or two OEM Keys at at time... on Ebay.... fishing as it were for us suckers... Sorry, been there done that (took the bait so to speak)... and it still strikes me as funny. As for expecting more of the president of the IZCC - hell, I just one of the Z Car Nuts, that's worked very hard to provide and/or share as much information about our Z's as possible, to the entire Internet Community... I'm not a politician... don't have any commercial vendors or sponsors to suck up to... I very rarely intend to offend anyone, but do most often try to call it like I see it.. As I see it - it's still a funny situation, now made even more so... no offense intended. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Mark: It has been my experience that anyone that carries out a project, to the level of excellence that you have, will in fact "do it again". You may not think so now, but after that now beautifully finished Z sits in your garage... for 6 to 12 months (maybe less)... the satisfaction you got out of completing it, will not over-come the satisfaction you got out of "doing" it. You will simply have to have something out there to fiddle with..., or you'll run across another solid, all but rust free body that could be saved with a little work... I'm sorry, but the results of your efforts clearly show that you are seriously infected with both the 240-Z and the restoration bug. So don't sell that welder too soon, it would be a shame to waste all that experience by stopping at just one. :-) great job, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Pennyman: "L" series OHC engines have both the intake and exhaust valve off-set in the combustion chamber, to one side of the vertical centerline of the cylinder bore. So the term that describes this design is "L Series." (actually a carry-over from the days of "L Head" designs aka Flat Heads). In an "I" (eye) series engine, one valve is offset to one side, and another valve is offset to the opposite side of the vertical centerline of the cylinder bore. So the term that describes that design is an "I Series". (also sometimes called a "Y" type). FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi everyone: How are these different than say the Panasports/Mini-lites? 14x7 aluminum (yes/no?) Carl B.

HI Steve: All the listed products are simply detergents and none are magic cleaners. Anything that will remove stains and deep ground-in dirt from 33 year old vinyl - will in some way also be harmful to the vinyl. The question then becomes how much harm can you afford to do, without wasting the item your trying to save. So far, the best cleaner I've found for vinyl that can be cleaned..(and I repeat that many times the old vinyl simply can not be)... is "SoftScrub" - the kitchen counter top cleaner, second best is the Orange Hand Cleaner... both have a slightly gritty consistency. A better approach - that actually can do less damage to the vinyl - Don't try to clean the item to "as new" condition - it isn't new and it never will be again. Clean it as best you can with any good detergent, rinse it off, and let it dry in the warm sunshine. When it's warm, wipe it down with lacquer thinner and re-dye it with SEM Vinyl Dye. (SEM products are sold by most Automotive Paint and Supply Stores). Good luck, Carl B. 72 Metallic Blue 240-Z with white interior

Same buyer... same seller.. 5 blank keys brought $350.00+... not bad. I wonder how many blank keys dag1955 has stashed away... and how much uwhusky89 will spend in total... What if dag1955 has a whole case of them!! too funny... Carl B.

Hi Ed/Jim (everyone): I'm not sure Ed, what you mean by "Silicone", or "using Silicone to install". That is to say, that there are silicone based sealants, caulks, and adhesives. All have different properties and applications. An adhesive is required, and there are some pretty good silicone based adhesives on the market today. (most sealants and caulks stay pliable/tacky and can be easily pulled apart later - an adhesive adheres or bonds to the materials to which it is applied). Let's take a look at it as drawn in the Factory Service Manuals. <a href=http://ZHome.com/zcarfilesJPEG/WindshieldSealSm.jpg TARGET=NEW>http://ZHome.com/zcarfilesJPEG/WindshieldSealSm.jpg</a> The windshield gasket/seal.. is actually a little more complex than a simple "H", as the "H" does not take into account the critical function of the windshield molding. That stainless steel molding is actually there to provide strength and rigidity to the seal, and to prevent the glass from flexing too far forward in the seal - as pressure changes take place in the cabin. The glass actually overlaps the lip in the windshield frame, as opposed to butting up against it (as it would in an "H" type seal). Also note that the "lip" inside the windshield frame is not perfectly flat and smooth.. which means that the seal will not perfectly seal against it.. there are very small gaps where water can run though and into the car. As there are production tolerances on all four components.. the windshield glass, the windshield frame, the windshield lip (the lip is inside the frame) and the seal itself - an adhesive should be applied to the interface between the exterior glass and the seal. A Silicone adhesive or the good old 3M Weatherstrip Adhesive (aka Gorilla Snot) is fine. This is especially true if you are using an after-market glass, as they are not cast to the same exacting tolerances as the OEM windshields. (I've had to have two of them replaced due to distortion that was beyond acceptable limits). IMHO with after-market windshield glass it is Very Important to use an adhesive to secure the seal to the glass. Secondly - an adhesive is required between the seal and the window frame. Again this is very important with cars that are 33+ years old - previous body work, the slightest shifting of the frame as the car's body twists/flexes with age and use etc.. Over the years there is nothing to say that the window frame is still exactly the shape it was when the car left the factory.. and the slightest variation can allow a leak If the engineers at Nissan say that an adhesive is needed/required.. you can bet that this sealing system was designed to use an adhesive - and if they tell me to use one - I'll take their word for it. (I've had too many of them leak when I didn't follow the directions/spec.'s). Yes, if you are using all Nissan OEM parts (windshield glass, seals), you might get away with out using any sealants or adhesives 8 out of 10 times... but throw in a after-market glass and/or seal - and install that all into a 33+ year old unibody (that may have twisted a tad, or had it's window frame reworked etc.)... and you'll most likely wind up with a leak somewhere. Professional installers usually want to run a small bead of sealant around the edge of the glass, then install the seal over the glass. With todays sealants/adhesives that might work as well... as just applying an adhesive to the outside edge of the glass and interfacing seal. But you still need the adhesive between the exterior window frame and the seal. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hello 7240Z Your Z understeers in stock form. Push it hard into a corner, feel it start to plow, lift suddenly off the throttle and crank in more steering lock in a panic - and if you are caring enough speed, you can get it to oversteer. When the rear end starts to catch up to the front - get on the throttle hard and you can easily do a 180 or 360... Learn how to drive it in stock form, and the truth is that it isn't a matter of how the car handles, so much as how you want to handle the car. Join a local SCCA chapter, take the drivers training courses they sponsor as well as any others you can get yourself into. You'll learn a lot more a lot faster about how to handle the car, and you'll have a safe place to put yourself through those inevitable 180's and 360's. (if you haven't spun it out or off track you haven't pushed it to your limits ;-) Once you have learned to push it to its limits and safely hold it there.. then you can begin to fine tune the suspension and your driving... In stock form your Z is a handful for sure - but it's not beyond your reach if you have average reflexes and you are taught what to observe and how to respond etc. My personal opinion is that it is very important to learn how to drive your Z in it's stock form first. Jump in a car that is way above your abilities to handle it at its limits - and you will not develop the feel, the basic skills, the driving techniques and confidence that you need to really advance. You simply have to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run..... then you run the best when coached properly. It's the same with driving. good luck and most important of all - stay safe.. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

This is one Event I will most certainly do my best to Attend... One of the most enjoyable events I've been to in the last 20 years. The drive to and from the event was almost as much fun as the event itself... Was it held in "May" last year?.... seemed like it was later in the year.. Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Arne/Chris everyone: 1. They are the Euro Spec. Stage I (ESS-1) - as defined by Nissan Competition Parts Dept. USA in the 70's/80's. 2. They would seem to be the same springs as standard on the 240-Z's sent to Australia, but Alan believes that Great Britian at least, got the Euro Spec. Stage II springs on their 240-Z's. 3, According to the three or four people that responded, installing the ESS-I springs made no noticeable difference in over-all ride height. That is to say no one experienced any wheel/tire clearance problems. They did say that the usual "nose high" appearance of the car, was changed to a more "level" look front to rear. No one took accurate measurements of the "before" and "after" installation, because they felt their old springs were sagging anyway. Looking at the Nissan Spec.'s the installed height of the ESS-1 springs is about 0.9 inches shorter in front, and 0.4 inch higher in the rear. 4. The ESS-1 springs are about 22% stiffer in the front and 9% stiffer in the rear. The ESS-II springs are about 22% stiffer in the front and 9% stiffer in the rear, than the ESS-1 springs. 5. Spring Rates: US Spec. Springs are: Right Front 1.48 kg/mm (83 lbs/in.) Left Front 1.48 kg/mm (83 lbs/in.) Rear 1.85 kg/mm (104 lbs/in.) The Euro Spec. Stage 1 Springs are: Right Front 1.80 kg/mm (101 lbs/in.) Left Front 1.80 kg/mm (101 lbs/in.) Rear 2.00 kg/mm (140 lbs/in.) Euro Spec. Stage II Springs are: Right Front 2.18 kg/mm (122 lbs/in.) Left Front 2.18 kg/mm (122 lbs/in.) Rear 2.5 kg/mm (140 lbs/in) Merry Christmas everyone. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Oops ... sorry - should have checked the ebay listing.. It's a Factory Service Bulletin... "Introduction of..." sorry, Carl B.

Hi Don: What is a "Dealer" Manual? Can you supply a picture? thanks, Carl B. Clearwater, FL USA http://zHome.com

Hi 240ZX - I'd give them $4001.00 and out bid you ;-). I agree that there are always the unknowns and certainly agree that the cost of them can add up quickly. However close inspection of the specific car would quickly revel that it was as advertised, and in need of very little. Seriously, if you could find a solid 71 240-Z, with little to no rust in the body - with matching numbers and mostly original parts - you'd have to pay at least $5,500.00 East of the Mississippi... and it could otherwise be a real rag. (meaning it needs paint and body work, interior work, lots of detailing, new chrome, weather stips/seals etc. etc. etc). But let's say you did find a solid car, with matching numbers for $4K. Around here today, you'd have to disassemble the car yourself - and take the car to a local body shop for body work and paint.... a decent job would cost $5K, not to mention the hours you'd spend to take it apart and putting it back together. The repaint on that car was done with all glass out, all chrome off etc - but they stopped short of repainting the engine bay - it was in pretty good shape in it's original form. Subtract that $5K from the $8,400.00 selling price - and that lucky buyer actually paid $3,400.00 for a very sold, mostly original, matching number car. Subtract the re-chromed bumpers ($800.00), the new carpet kit (??$125.00) and he actually paid closer to $2,500.00 for the car!! The car also came with the original hub caps and wheels (not too common to find on any car today)... even used they would sell for $125.00 each.. so subtract that and the new buyer actual paid closer to $2,000.00 for the car!! Oh yes, that perfect dash.. in a 71... another $800.00 to $1200.00 today... Heck, the car itself was all but a gift! At $9,500.00 this car would still have been a good deal by todays standards, if you wanted to buy a pretty much finished car, rather than a project car. FWIW, Carl B. Clearwater, FL http://ZHome.com

Hi Guys: I know the seller.... why he was willing to end the auction, once bidding started and let it go for the "Buy-it-now" price is somewhat beyond me. At one point he said he was thinking of changing his mind about even selling it. zhead240 - your fellow Canadian will be VERY pleased with this car at that price. No question that if he wants to drive it around the continent, he'll have to replace the original belts/hoses etc.... but he will find that a couple of grand and a few weekends work will put that car in all but "as new" condition. I know a buyer that was willing to bid/pay more for the car if necessary - and like me, he was surprised that the car could still be purchased out-right for the Buy-it-now price, once bids were received. We both thought that once bids were received on an item, the Buy-it-now price no longer applied. Turns out that if the seller lists both a reserve price, but does not put in the first "starting bid"... then the seller can accept the Buy-it-now price any time it's offered, even if 50 people had already bid... We learned something new on this one... FWIW, Carl B. Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Oops...sorry for the confusion - looks like Alan cleared that up already at <a href=http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19816>http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19816</a>

This is the car that was on ebay a little while ago - - - the one with the reworked VIN... that was discussed... it was withdrawn from sale after so many people wrote the seller about the phony VIN etc. What was that thread??? Carl B.

Hi Richard1 (everyone) I can only relate my experience... My son had a 72 Olds Cutlass Supreme. Restored and professionally appraised at the time at $8,500.00. He of course had lot more money in it than that, not to mention a couple years work. A "Reverend" ran a Red Light and took the nose off my son's Cutlass. The Reverend was insured with GIECO.. he was sighted/ticked for the Red Light... went to Court and was found guilty. GIECO's "Adjustor" offered my son $1,500.00 to total the Cutlass out. My son submitted the Appraisal (at the time less than two months old), plus about ten pages of "For Sale" ad's that reflected the average market value of restored Cutlass Supremes in Florida at the time. On average they were "asking" in the $6,500.00 to $8,500.00 range. All this meant "NOTHING" to the Adjustor - he said, take the offer or sue us. He knew that the limits in the Small Claims Court here in Florida were $5K. He knew that if there was no "personal injury" involved, my son could not recover "Legal Fee's" in addition to actual damages; but would have to pay his Attorney out of the money awarded if he prevailed in Court... which would leave about $2K at the most. All this dragged on for about six months.. and the Adjustor finally offered $2,500.00 to settle the claim - and my son gave up and took it. Letters to the State Insurance Commissioner did no good in this case, letters from my son's Attorney went in the trash at the Claims Adjustor's desk. The "Only" way to protect yourself - when you own a higher value Classic, Collectible or Special Interest Automobile is to have it fully insured on your own "Agreed Value" Insurance Policy. Yes - if one buys a 30 year old car with 5K miles... one can expect to put a few $K into it, if one wants to take it out and drive it on longer trips. On top of that, it all depends on how well cared for the car was - while being stored. Many cars in good Collections - are very well cared for.. started, ran, fresh gas etc etc - and just as many are just left to "sit" unattended. The one's that have been left to sit will have "issues" that will need to be resolved.. and that usually costs both time and dollars. Properly awaking one of these Sleeping Beauties, that has been left to just sit completely idle has to be done carefully and correctly - if you want to avoid problems. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com