Carl Beck

Hi Guys: The 2002 could be better compared to the Datsun 510's. Of course the 510's ran the BMW's and Alpha's off the tracks in the Trans/Am series. To this day Datsun 510's are still winning races. John Morton, driving the 25 year old BRE 510 - just waxed the field at the Monterey Historic's a couple years ago... (2001?)... gee time flies... Secondly - before you jump into a BMW - go price the repair or replacement parts for the 2002's (or 1600's) and compare that with the 510's... No question in my mind that when new - the 2002's and 1600's were higher quality cars... felt more solid, was painted far better, stock handling was firmer... actually a very nice car - in many ways the model for the Datsun 510 to follow... but no way would I take a 2002 over a Datsun 510 then nor now. I worked for a Datsun/BMW Dealership in the early 70's (73/74)... and while the 2002's were in the shop over and over and over, for all manor of petty problems... the little rugged 510's were on the road .. running and running and running. We salesmen loved those BMW's... we always had shot after shot at selling the owners another BMW as they sat in the Service Customers Waiting Room... They were usually wonderful people, well educated, good incomes, fun to talk too - and while they were writing those huge checks for service - they would be telling you how happy they were with their BMW's (music to a salesman's ears;-). On the other hand, those darn Datsuns... people would buy them and leave - and you'd never see them again. If they didn't get a good 100,000 miles on the car before anything at all happened to it they'd be in there raising hell and demanding that the Dealer fix it for free... (and half the time the Dealer DID!!)... Let's not even get into the 510's and East African Safari Rally's... Bottom line is the BMW 2002's and 1600's.. are very nice cars indeed.... but there simply is NO comparison to the Z Car... and sorry to say they didn't really compare well to the Datsun 510 in performance nor reliability. The did have better paint jobs... FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA

Hi Mike: If Nissan wanted to run the 2.8L engine, anywhere in the world, or allow private teams to do so, they would have had to modify their FIA submissions to include the L28. BTW - The United States Grand Prix is an FIA event here in the US, as is the United States Rally Championships. Many U.S. Manufacturers have their models F.I.A. homologated for competition around the world. (LeMans comes to mind - Viper, Corvette etc.). So the F.I.A. does in its own events have jurisdiction here. True - International Motor Sports Association (IMSA) and the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) do have their own set of rules. As does the National Association for Stock Car Racing (NASCAR). But they aren't the only sanctioning bodies here - the F.I.A is also one. Engine capacity might affect what class the car ran in. Getting the L28 homologated only means Nissan has filed the proper paperwork with the F.I.A to define the item and certified it as a regular production item - so it meets the F.I.A. requirements for the classes for which it is allowed to compete. That's true for both of us - regards, Carl B.

Hello snarty: It would help if we knew where you were located, you should add that info to your profile. First - grab that original engine - at some point in the future - you never know - you may want to resell the car - and the value of a 240-Z is usually cut in half without the original engine. That may not seem like a big deal today - but it will hurt if the difference is $20K vs $10K. Second - you may have gotten a deal based on parts alone. As for the car, it depends on how solid the body is... ie front frame rails and floorboards, rear quarters etc.... as to exactly HOW GOOD a deal you got. A good solid Series I body with matching engine is at least $4,500.00 here in the South East (that's with shot interior, no bumpers, and needing lots of work). For $2K with the original engine - I'd be buying cars like that all day long. Good luck with the project.. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hello snarty: It would help if we knew where you were located, you should add that info to your profile. First - grab that original engine - at some point in the future - you never know - you may want to resell the car - and the value of a 240-Z is usually cut in half without the original engine. That may not seem like a big deal today - but it will hurt if the difference is $20K vs $10K. Second - you may have gotten a deal based on parts alone. As for the car, it depends on how solid the body is... ie front frame rails and floorboards, rear quarters etc.... as to exactly HOW GOOD a deal you got. A good solid Series I body with matching engine is at least $4,500.00 here in the South East (that's with shot interior, no bumpers, and needing lots of work). For $2K with the original engine - I'd be buying cars like that all day long. Good luck with the project.. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi taikaki: As I recall a new distributor from Nissan is a bit pricey... but you can order one from your local Nissan Parts Dept. - or better call Courtesy Nissan (something like $365.00 but I could be wrong). 09/71 TO 06/72 22100-E4603 ASSY-DISTRIBUTOR HITACHI D612-52 Unless you are building a show car for the Pure Stock Class - in which case you won't drive the car much anyway - I'd consider a rebuilt unit, or having yours rebuilt by a speciality shop. or I'd upgrade to the 280ZX distributor - you get both electronic and high energy ignition, which is a huge improvement over the points type of earlier years. Or the Mallory Unilite with vacuum advance. FWIW, Carl B. Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Dan: Sorry I didn't get back to you on this - I did spend a great deal of time looking for Part Numbers etc. LIke everyone else - came up blank. I don't recall ever seeing screws in the door panels of any 240-Z. For that matter using screws in the door panels would not be a very good idea. The spring clips used, in their plastic lags - allow the door panel to flex a bit when the door is slammed. So they act somewhat like shock absorbers... letting the door panel flex out and then spring back. So over time the door panel stays pretty much in place as it should. I suppose it is possible that if a door panel was damaged, or warped in some way - and it wouldn't comform to the door as it should - some Dealer might have installed the screws to correct some other problem. If you screw the door panels on - then over a brief period the screws will work their way loose, and the door panel can tear around them - as the door panel flexes away from the door - each time the door is slammed... (found this out on my 55 T-Bird). FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Joseph: Thanks - That explains why there seems to be so much confusion as to when the actual metal Compliance Tags had to be affixed to the cars. I am surprised that related to imports, the individual States sat different regulations... In relation to Tasmania - what does that mean? March, 70 (date unknown)??? Should it read "day unknown"... as March 70 is a date (yes/no?) Let me know if anyone comes up with additional information. thanks, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA 11/69 HLS30 00020 12/69 HLS30 00587 71 240-Z 72 240-Z 72 240-Z 73 BRE Baja Z 83 280ZX Turbo

Hi Alan: Good points.. I'll try to work something out in the "Notes".... I don't want to put too much history there, yet let people know what would be expected to wind on the Registers, or what could be expected to be out there still to find.. No question that HLS30 00009 though 13 went somewhere, or were used by Nissan for EPA/MVSS Certification cars (destructive testing). Yes, Auto Shows around the world would be possible too.. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA 11/69 HLS30 00020 12/69 HLS30 00587 71 240-Z 72 240-Z 72 240-Z 73 BRE Baja Z 83 280ZX Turbo Looking for HLS30 00009

Hi Mike: Oh.. sorry - when you said no "Right Hand Drives"... No - 2305 is the wheel base (90.74 inches). That first page is mostly about the standard body . Page 5 lists 2394cc as the engine capacity. Here is the first page for the change to the 260Z... and page 2 of that submission shows 2583 cm3 (157.62) I believe that the FIA Homologates cars for world wide competition in any FIA sanctioned events - so the only thing that matters is who produced the car, how many were produced and in what standard production configurations - does not matter to the FIA where the cars were sold.. Sorry for the poor reproduction - the original documents were photo-copied in the early 70's and at that time they were using a heat fused ink.. which has now caused all the pages to "yellow/brown" badly.. I scanned them - then used Photoshop to attempt to clean them up ... for the most part they are readable in higher resolutions.. but we have image size limits here on the Web Forum. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Sean: "Others" is made up of West Germany, Holland and France <pre> U.S.A. West Germany Holland France 1970 16,215 0 3 0 1971 33,684 0 7 82 1972 52,628 0 92 402 1973 45,588 112 130 188 1974 40,172 0 1 0 2+2 9,499 40 39 74 1975 40,216 22 0 1 2+2 11,594 372 21 100 1976 45,766 0 7 0 2+2 13,792 417 47 184 1977 54,594 1 61 1 2+2 16,065 519 52 71 </pre> FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http:ZHome.com

The FIA Papers that I have, all list H(L)S30 - so perhaps it didn't matter to the FIA which side of the car the Driver sat on... FWIW, Carl B. Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Dave: A long time ago, there was, and still may be (???) an organization devoted strictly to the "Classic" Datsun Z's in Great Britain. That was/is - as I recall - "the Classic Z Car Registry" in England. It very well could be that the majority of the Datsun 240-Z owners there, are registered with that organization, and feel no further need to register anywhere else. I don't believe they ever established a presents on the Web, anyone know if they did or not? The Z Club of Great Britain used to publish the number of various Z Cars registered for road use in Great Britain and as I recall there were indeed very very few left there. Of the original 2000 or so sent the GB, it seems to me that something less than 75 were still registered for road use there.. at the last report. Also keep in mind that the Classic Car Registers are most pointedly to encourage the preservation of Stock examples, so highly modified cars are not usually found there either. FWIW Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Alan (everyone) Yes, while it could be true that HS30 00003 started production in 69, we have not yet found the car to be in existence. As you pointed out in an earlier thread - Nissan's publications can contain a lot of mistakes and mis-information. The primary reason for that statement, was to debunk the common Myth that the first 500 "HS30" Z's were produced in 1969. For years we saw HS30's advertised For Sale in Australia/NZ with VIN's between HS30 00004 - HS30 00500 represented as being 1969 Production Year cars... which certainly was not the case. We do have HS30 00004 and we (its current owner at the time and I ) agreed that the car was most likely produced in Jan. or Feb. of 1970. Based, among other things, on its original engine serial number and his memory of when it arrived in Australia mid-1970. Some of the US Nissan Publications also show production of units sold to the public - starting at HLS30 00013. So far we have not been able to find the car nor any record of it being sold. So are HS30 00003 and HLS30 00013 thru 00015 Myths?... could be - but so far we list what we can find. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Dave: The HS30 is the Right Hand Drive 240-Z, and that's the Register for which I provided the link. We currently support the following individual Registers for Classic (70-73), Collectible and Special Interest Z's. Original Owners -Datsun 240-Z's Classic 240-Z's Classic Fairlady Z's Nissan Vintage Z Program Cars The 1980 10th Anniversity 280ZX The 1984 50th Anniversary 300ZX The Z31.com Site maintains a register for all 84-96 300ZX's. So far - no one that I know of (might be some somewhere on the Net.) - has been willing to devote the time/effort etc to starting, building and then continuing to support any Registers for the Right/Left hand drive 260's. All the Registers that the IZCC currently supports are contained with the IZCC Section, of the Z Car Home Page http://ZHome.com FWIW, Carl B.

It would be good if we could pin down at what point they actually started afixing Compliance Tags to cars. I've been told many times that they didn't start until 1971. Prior to that they just had paperwork. On average it took 3 months to get a car from production, to or into Australia. Engine Serial Numbers for cars produced in 09/70 are all in the L24-12xxx to L24-145xx range. A car can be built after it's original engine - but it can't be built before it's engine was produced - - I believe that HS30-00306 was more than likely built 12/70 - and would have most likely had a Compliance Tag of 03/71. HS30-00306 has been on our HS Register since 09/17/04 FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Dave: Here is the link to the Internet Z Car Club Register: <a href=http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/classicHS.htm TARGET=NEW> http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/classicHS.htm</a><br> I've taken you list - compared it to our listing, and my private files.. then added the most likely production months to the cars listed.. also put them in VIN order.. The 1970 HS30 vehicles reported by owners include - and based on engine serial numbers production (month/year) would be close to: HS30 00117 L24 015308 1/1970 (10/70) HS30 00157 Not Known 12/1970 ???? HS30 00219 L24 018018 1/1970 (11/70) HS30 00280 L24 021364 11/1970 (12/70) HS30 00306 L24 021698 9/1970 Verified above as accurate by Mr C (12/70) HS30 00352 L24 021447 1/1971 (12/70) HS30 00696 L24 301849 1/1970 (Should be 031849 - (03/71) HS30 00958 L24 042111 1/1970 (06/71) I have: HS30 #04 as 01/70 HS20 #16 as 04/70 HS30 #44 as 07/70 HS30 #60 as 08/70 FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Mark (everyone) I only mention this as a point of information: A friend of mine's father "USED" to own one of the better show chrome plants in Florida. So I had an opportunity to spend a little time with the Chemists they had working for them. My friends father and the Chemist both had 30+ years in the Aerospace and Defense industry - where most times "cost" has no bearing on the product, but quality is everything. I see that the Plant you recommend lists Cadmium Plating with options for Bright, Black, Chromate, Olive Drab.. The original parts on the Z's were indeed Yellow Chromated Bright Cadmium. Because of the EPA requirements for handling toxic and heavy metals.. 95% of the plating companies today in the US don't "actually" use Cadmium. Because consumer's are usually clueless.. If you call a Plating Company or visit one- and you say that you have small parts that were Cad. plated - and ask them if they can re-plate them - they will just say "sure". You'll send them the parts - get them back - and they won't quite have the exact same look as the originals. The usual reason is - they didn't Cad. plate them to begin with, rather they used a zinc plating, and yellow chromate dip... Parts plated with either Zinc or Cadmium both come out with a somewhat dull silver appearance, and when next processed with a Chromate.. they come out with a yellow/gold look. The zinc parts will not have quite that deep golden huge, with the same rainbow of colors that parts plated with cadmium will have. If you make it perfectly clear that the process you want MUST be a bright cadmium - not ZINC.. usually they will say something like; "oh.. well we don't actually use cadmium, we use zinc - but it looks the same".... If you don't say anything about it they won't either. You can also expect to pay a lot more for the use of real cadmium. The quality at which your parts will come out of the plating process - will depend upon how nearly perfect the small parts are that went into the process. Some shops do a great job of cleaning the parts up - and then polishing them up to near new condition. Other shops will clean the parts before plating and plate them... flaws and all. Still other shops will simply plate what you send, and expect that you have cleaned/polished them. So you have to assure that the parts are to be not only cleaned but also polished (so to speak) or understand fully exactly what will be done and by who. The whole plating process is can be a mine field... so be careful out there.. Communicate with the plating company and clearly define what you expect the end result to look like and the quality of the parts your expecting to receive back. Pin them down to very specific explanation of the exact process and materials used. I'm not an expert on plating - only relaying my personal experience and what experts have told me. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

That very well could be. There are lots of guys that constantly buy/sell at the auctions. Sometimes something listed as "sold" had the deal fall though later when some defect was found on the car or title.. I dobut anyone in that arena would think they could being a car to Florida from BJ in AZ and see a price increase... FWIW, Carl B.

A bit banged up but looks pretty good underneath actually. Certainly not a "restoration" in my sense of the term - at that auction it should bring bids in the $8K to $10K range... anything under that and it's a bargain if the rest of the car checks out..OK Carl B. Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi dat240z71 If your not auto-Xing nor racing - then a Sports Seat might not be the best choice, the side bolsters on the Sports Seats can be a bit bothersome while getting in/out of the car on a daily basis, and as Ron mentioned seats designed to hold you firmly in place for Sport - can be a bit restrictive on longer highway trips. Some of the manufacturers produce models with designs that provide additional body support for Grand Touring, but allow more adjustability and movement. They usually have lower side bolsters to allow easier egress and exit. Personally, a friend gave me a set of Acura Integra seats out of a then new 98 model. They fit in the 240-Z almost perfectly and provide far greater comfort for my old body... a big plus for me is that they have removable head restraints.. meaning they have lower backs that I can see around easily. See: <a href=http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/AcuraSeats/AcuraBeck.htm TARGET=NEW>http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/AcuraSeats/AcuraBeck.htm</a> FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Dave: I didn't mean to sound like I was attempting to correct anyone's etiquette, only attempting to further the discussion. No question we can at times get very far afield with our ramblings.. As far as I am aware the Datsun 280Z was sold only in North America. HLS30 is the coupe and GHLS30 is the 2+2. Why Nissan retained the "H" to designate the L28 after using it to designate the L24 earlier, then using the "R" to designate the L26 - only they know for sure. The Datsun 280Z sold well here and today they seem to be keeping pace in the price range with the 240-Z's. The factory A/C, 5spd. and better sound/heat insulation are favored by many and with the L28E they retained much of the original 240-Z's performance. About the only down side to them here was the addition of the US required 10 mph bumpers... uck.. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi dadz: I'm glad I qualified by earlier statement with "as I recall". I've been doing some farther research.. trying to pin down the various dates at which the Tire Safety Standards related to displaying the production dates changed.. and they seem to have changed quite often over the past 40 years. Sorry to say that the Federal Register is very hard to follow between "proposed changes" and "actual changes implemented". I know "think".. that the "K7" is the Plant Code that indicates what production plant the tires were produced at. I've written some contacts at Bridgestone to see if they can dig up some history for us. Does your tire say K7002 or K7000 or K7009? I can't quite be sure from the picture. There should be another set of characters molded into the sidewall - what do they say? I think we need to gather a few more samples... regards, Carl

Hi Chris: I'm not sure what "issue" you refer too. No guidelines are not benchmarks. The values given in the various publications are the Guidelines.... ie "Value Guide" The Kruse Set of Numbered Condition Categories are the benchmarks. Bench mark: 1) a mark on a permanent object indicating elevation and serving as a reference in topographical surveys and tidal observations. 2) benchmark a; a point of reference from which measurements may be made b; something that serves as a standard by which others may be measured. I'd say that that the Kruse condition categories are widely used as a common point of reference - within which most collector cars can be placed, and that most car collectors are aware of. As for them being subjective categories vaguely defined - they may be. However they are published for every one to read, have been for years and years - and one of the most broadly used. Nothing in this area is "absolute"... the categories are ordinal in nature within the collector car community.... not ratio. Just a standard set of definitions that everyone can use - without everyone making up their own or redefining terms. FWIW, Carl

Hi Ben (everyone) I think it's important to recognize the difference between "respect" and "desire". Most people that know much about Sports/GT's respect the early Z Cars. However most of the fanatic price escalation in both the value of the Datsun 240-Z and Muscle Cars is driven by "desire". If someone with the money to spend, want's a specific car of any kind - nothing else will satisfy that Desire for them, so if they have the money... they'll spend it. As fewer and fewer of the items of their desire come on the market, and more buyers decide it's time to fulfill their burning Desire.. prices start to climb into the level of the ridiculous. Just didn't want to confuse "R E S P E C T" with market value. In the Classic, Collector and Special Interest car markets - value is all about "the people that have the money" satisifing their.. "DESIRE". FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Chris: You may have your definitions, and everyone else may have theirs. That is why a very diverse set of Collectors around the country and around the world usually refer to a common set of categories with their definitions. The Value Guides are just that - a published and known set of benchmarks - against which any car can be held. No question that once both parties get together, they may draw the line at slightly different points.. but at least at that point in time they would both have had something that got them close to an understanding. I believe that the #1 cars - like Charlie's are indeed very very rare.. I'll be darned if I can find many. By the end of 1985 Nissan/Datsun had sold over a million cars in the US.. Wonder if we can find 50 of them in the same condition as Charlie's? Yes, he drove it a few hundred miles on a dry sunny summer day.. the exception that proves the rule perhaps. Nonetheless if you inspected a car with 900 or 1,200 miles that is 26 years old - and in the same condition - I think most people would describe it as "never driven". Most Collectors that would buy such a car would never drive it to a show.. Charlie isn't really a collector so much as an enthusiast of the marque. When the car reaches the $50K plus range I believe Charlie would either sell it or quite driving it. All things with a grain of salt. FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com