Triple Carb vs. Holley 4BBL Carb

[HS30-H]

Interesting that Mr. Iida commented in an interview reported by Nostalgic Hero, that when his team designed the first L20 in-line six cylinder, OHC engine (with a four month design cycle), they used side draft carb's because they had less resistance to flow..................

etc.

Wow Carl,

20 months ago - on this very forum - you were dismissing Hiroshi Iida and that Nostalgic Hero article in favour of your own '1966 as Year Zero' theories. What happened? Did you have another Road To Damascus* moment?

( * not to be confused with any old movies starring Bob Hope and Bing Crosby ).

Some of his info seems to be based on fact, i.e., what he's read but a lot of it seem to be based on opinion. Not just in this thread but others also. I don't know where that comes from but if he believes it, I guess he's entitled to.

Sorry, are you talking about TonyD or CarlB here?

Tony,

Watch out for the stragglers from the HUAC that are still at large - they'll be knocking on your door soon if you are not careful.

They'd have been knocking on my door too by now, 'cept none of them seem to own a valid passport.............

Alan T.

[jmortensen]

Rally around the flag if you want to. There was a time in my youth that I felt if I could do it, anybody could. Unfortunately as time has gone by, I realized that this was not the case.

That's not my point. My point is not to say that every 'Merican is a goddam genius. My point is to say that not all Americans are too damn stupid to work on sidedrafts, and if you assume that they are, then you're the one who is not the genius.

Instead of getting upset by their incompetence, I simply choose to accept they exist and call a spade a spade. People are idiots. But I find the acceptance of Japanese Vehicles, and Imports in general to be the RULE here out west, than back in the mideast.

Acceptance of Japanese vehicles seems to be the issue for you then I guess. You seem to automatically think this lack of prejudice against Japanese cars makes the people smarter somehow. That's the part I'm taking issue with. Midwesterners might not like Hondas and there are definitely some morons out that way, but they're also the guys pulling 275 whp out of a 2.3L Ford with a 390 Holley on it. They might not be using sidedrafts, but the fact that they can and do squeeze their preferred motors to a similar (if not higher) state of tune makes me think that maybe they're not as dumb as I once thought.

I'm just making the point because I used to think all those backward hicks in the midwest were a bunch of idiots until my boss at a Porsche shop got a subscription to Circle Track magazine. When I asked him if he liked watching rednecks drive around in a fishbowl, he made me read an article on aerodynamics and took me out to the shop. Every modification listed in the article was present to one degree or another on a 944 Turbo which was fairly new and still pretty high tech at the time.

I'm not a fan of drag racing either. Seems like a horribly expensive and destructive hobby to get 10 or 12 seconds of joy out of, but I've also come to realize that it isn't just building a huge engine and mashing the gas pedal.

I guess I see just as much ignorance in people who hate pushrod V8's because they're "old technology" as you see in people who hate Japanese cars because they're built by (as my friend's immigrant dad says) "fuggin forners". Ignorance is ignorance. Assuming that 10's of millions of people that live in the center of the country are too dumb to work on a carburetor--that's ignorant. You're just calling it the way you see it. So am I.

The thing on the metric system was a month ago, sorry for dredging up ancient history. ;-) http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=126831

[Carl Beck]

Curiously, that brings up the original plans for the 240Z---the original preproduction brochures sent to dealers in 1968/9 for ordering the 240 included the 'Sports' 240, a car with 175 HP and Triple Mikuinis. The Standard, lower trim level vehicle had the SU's.

Hi Tony D / everyone:

""included the "Sports" 240"" ... That makes it sound like there was more than one model - there wasn't. The 69 brochure covered the Datsun 240-Z as it was spec'd for the U.S. at that time. There was no lower trim level vehicle mentioned at that point, that I can find.

The 1970 Showroom Sales Brochure, that outlined the standard trim, equipment etc actually raised the trim level. (while spec.'ing out the 150HP emissions version) After that brochure went to publication, Nissan included Tinted Glass and Rear Window Defroster as Standard Equipment also. (although it was listed as Optional in the 70 brochure).

Nissan's conservative engineering and emissions policy doomed the good engine options to those areas outside the USA. The 432 continued on the track of 'ultimate performance' with 40PHH Mikuinis, and since the target market on the Z was nixed for the Mikuini Option, it was dropped altogether worldwide. Sad...

Emissions Policy - what can we say? The U.S. Voters got what they wanted - less pollution from the cars. Many people thought that was a good thing - and therefore the better car: but I know what you mean.

Interesting to note that in the long run, those heinous US Emissions Requirements, may have actually lead to far better performing engines today. We'll never know if the manufacturers would have applied the available technology as it came along - of if they would have invested billions of dollars in the necessary R&D to develop it, without being forced to or not.... but I doubt they would have.

If we are looking at the choices Nissan's conservative engineers made - it is important to note that selection of the S20 for the Z in Japan, was a Management decision, not an engineering choice. Given that the S20 was a Prince Engine - we'll never know if the engineers at Nissan would have selected it or not.

Neat as the 432 was at the time, or neat a total package as it is still today - the S20 was selected to comply with Japanese government restrictions on engine displacement, while offering a great performing 2.0L engine in the JDM (even if at a significantly higher tax rate and initial price). Emissions or Displacement - government's influence drives engineering choice most of the time. Competition Rules and Regulations drive engineering choice at other times.

So yes, considering the Mikuinis give roughly 15-20% more HP as stated by period literature from both Mikuini USA and Nissan (175 versus 150hp for instance) one must 'consider what NISSAN engineering chose when these cars were in development'

While the triple carb'd L24 produced 175 HP - it also used a 10.5:1 compression ratio - whereas the 150 HP version was lowered to 9.0:1. So I'm not sure how much HP gain can be attributed solely to the carb's in that case.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Tony D]

The point being made was that on average the service structure was not compatible with OEM requirements required to support such a system. I'm not saying they all were morons, but ON AVERAGE they WERE NOT capable of that level of support. Not that it takes a genius to synch carbs, but Forrest Gump was working on the chassis rack, and Bubba was just promoted to LOF... We are talking about guys with an Average I.Q. maybe in the 100 range if you are lucky. You would hope they could do it, but many times they can't. And that's a fact. Not a knock, just a cold evaluation of the workforce...not just here in America, but generally EVERYWHERE.

You are mixing people in the afetermarket with people on an OEM level. You make the assumption that since the engineers did not have confidence in their OEM service structure to support the product that is somehow is a blanket condemnation of Americans in general. It's not, it's a factual analysis of their workforce and there is nothing wrong with agreeing with it from my point of view. They felt the same about the JDM workforce, limiting access to Mikuini-Equipped Triples to only special workcenters with specialized training. You admit you can't find a good mechanic. That in and of itself is a condemnation of the 'average worker'! Don't use absolutes, as I wasn't.

FOR SHAME!

I made the comment 'frankly I agree with them' because I do. The service departments most likely could NOT support this setup. I remember having to reset my Corvair after coming back from the GM dealership because they would NEVER get the synch correct. Would it pass GM specs? Probably, maybe, but three notches on the Unisynch was not acceptable to me! And from what I read in the FSM it wasn't acceptable, either! It sure as hell wasn't that way when it went IN to the dealer!

And this was within a 2 hour drive from the factory training centre. Gawd forbid someone at a Buick Dealership / Datsun setup had to worry about getting to Carson or Gardena for training.

Getting power from one engine or another does NOT mean they can come in an synch a multiple Mikuini Setup. It's a red herring.

I deal with technical instruction as part of my job. I deal with people here in the USA with High School Educations...period. I have YET to find someone in the general distribution network with a 4 year degree.

Now...overseas? At a MINIMUM I deal with people having a 4 Years Bachelors. I was amazed to be doing a field evaluation on a gent with a MASTERS in international finance! The educational requisites for going into the mechanical field here in the USA has been very VERY low.

What makes America great is the fact that ANYBODY can do WHATEVER they want. What hurts America in many cases is also precisely that as well! Someone may be a stellar performer as an individual, but has absolutely no background in finances or anynthing other than his specialty. Not a balanced individual. Again, not a knock, but a truthful assessment.

You are using extremes to make your point, while I am using the sad averages. It becomes clear you haven't spent much time in the Mideast. I grew up there. I never said acceptance of Japanese Vehicles was a sign of intelligence. I simply said that I moved BECAUSE OF IGNORANCE.

There is a big difference.

I never said people in the Mideast were ignorant because they couldn't work on a carburettor, I said the general workforce of the Nissan / Datsun Service network was likely not about to work on CARBURETORS! That they be in the Mideast is irrelevant to the discussion. But regarding the Mideast comments; that's based on years of dealing with them in the most-trained regions of the Big Three not being able to service their own products much less a smaller line of supplementary vehicles. You're parsing and twisting what I said into something else altogether. My simple statement was that Nissaan Engineering thought that the service network most likely could not support the product, and I agreed with that assessment. Nothing more, nothing about the mideast, just a general statement that the average Datsun guy in the mid 60's and early 70's would most likely not be able to properly service a triple solex setup for long term emissions compliance and low customer complaints. They used specialized dealerships in Japan to deal with this, and as a matter of fact, the NEW GT-R is getting the SAME treatment in the JDM. Likely here as well. What does that TELL YOU about the CURRENT 'Average Dealership Mechanic'? Has anything changed with FAR BETTER internte-based training of technicians compared to the 50's 60's 70's? And that was ALL I was saying. All the rest is pent up agression over something I never said but which obviously you have some issue with. Pushrod V8's? Who cares? The L-Engine is similarly 50-ish design as well...what does that have to do with anything?

If you take so much offense to that, evaluate what you have said, because you are supporting my statements. There are stupid people everywhere, they are the rule rather than the exception, and that people with preconceived notions can be bullheaded and refuse to see the obvious answer even when it's placed before their noses!

[dogma420]

Carl, you said:

<<

After that brochure went to publication, Nissan included Tinted Glass and Rear Window Defroster as Standard Equipment also.

>>

What's up with the tinted glass? My 10/71 has all original glass, but no tint...or is it so subtle that it's pratically the invisible type? Just curious.

Thanks! Everyone have a good weekend, now....

[e_racer1999]

i'm sure it's the ever-so-slightly-tinted-to-prevent-a-bunch-of-uv tint

[jmortensen]

Frankly, Nissan didn't trust technicians in the USA could perform the upkeep properly...and they were probably correct.

There's a reason I moved WEST. To get away from simpletons who thought because they could fit a spanner to nut that made them qualified to dispense high performance advice. I came to where I bought all my VW parts from. I came to where those funny little jap cars that everybody seemed to like to take sledghammers to every fourth of july for $20 a whack came through the ports.

The lights are one, but nobody's home. And that was the environment in which I was raised. Sorry, but it's still distasteful. But with that kind of an upbringing and seeing it all around me, it's hard to shake the impression that there is a dearth of intelligence in that part of the country when it comes to Imports, Import Technology, and generally anything that didn't come out of Detroit.

All of this suddenly becomes this:

I never said people in the Mideast were ignorant because they couldn't work on a carburettor, I said the general workforce of the Nissan / Datsun Service network was likely not about to work on CARBURETORS!

Do you mean to say that if they worked at a Datsun dealership and a triple carbed Z rolled through the door that they would refuse to work on it? If that's your contention, why didn't they refuse to work on the dual SU's? Seems to me like a Mikuni is a lot more similar to your average 4V carb than an SU which has no jets to change and no accelerator pumps but instead has oil and springs and needles and nozzles and all the rest.

I really don't see where you get off saying I'm the one who is twisting your words around and that I should be ashamed. I've reread the whole post and I just don't see this as a lack of comprehension or any sort of deception on my part. Look I think you're a really smart guy and I've come looking for your advice before and probably will again, but I think you need to perform a cranio-rectal extraction this time.

The one thing I think we do agree on is that in the US it seems that some people with low IQ's get into wrenching on cars because it doesn't require a degree. That said, I've worked in seven shops in my earlier years (mostly just out of high school), and looking back on it I can say that there might only have been one shop that I worked in that just didn't have a guy smart enough to work on Mikunis. That is of course a subjective assessment, I won't label mine "factual" as your seemingly subjective assessments have been labeled. Also my high IQ didn't make me a good mechanic. In fact I wasn't a very good mechanic by ANY standard of measurement. I was slow. Very slow. And I made mistakes. It's a much better hobby for me than a profession. I don't claim this to mean anything more than that IQ tests probably have little to do with who will be a good mechanic.

[jmortensen]

i'm sure it's the ever-so-slightly-tinted-to-prevent-a-bunch-of-uv tint

Could also be the blue tint at the top of the windshield.

[Carl Beck]

Carl, you said:

<<

After that brochure went to publication, Nissan included Tinted Glass and Rear Window Defroster as Standard Equipment also.

>>

What's up with the tinted glass? My 10/71 has all original glass, but no tint...or is it so subtle that it's pratically the invisible type? Just curious.

Thanks! Everyone have a good weekend, now....

This was discussed at:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/search.php?searchid=508167

but Mike said:

Does anyone else with a low VIN car have clear glass on the door windows and quarter windows? The clear glass is labeled M-214 and the later tinted glass is labeled M-224.

-Mike

It is a very light tint... but can be seen when side by side with the non-tinted glass.

FWIW,

Carl

[Tony D]

"Do you mean to say that if they worked at a Datsun dealership and a triple carbed Z rolled through the door that they would refuse to work on it? "

In many instances, that was exactly the case! Similarly GM dealers eschewed Quad 48IDA's on Inglese Manifolds...

Subjective Opinion, perhaps. What makes a fact? If I see it everywhere, doesn't that lend credence to the status of it being a factual observation? You may want to read the subtle qualifiers in your selected quotes. Interestingly you chose 'The lights are on' passage without including who SAID the statement to which I was referring, and how it relates to the general disconnect with the land of imports the ruling class of the Ford Family (and most of the Detroit Big Three) were on the point.

You got your nickers in a twist because I said I agreed with the Nissan Factory Engineers Evaluation that their general distributorship workforce would be incapable of properly maintaining the proposed Triple-Mikuini System. Anything else said, or brought up is irrelevant, really.

I don't think my head is allowing me a view of my pancreas by any stretch of the imagination. You have agreed finding a good mechanic is difficult. Well, that is the same thing the Nissan Engineers were saying, your average guy at a distributorship most likely would not be able to handle this job without some more training than they already had.

I don't know why that statement upsets you so much, but it seems pretty straightforward and logical assessment of the situation existing at the time. It's not Impuging America, even the Big Three make these kinds of assumptions. Some cases they are warranted. Chances are more often than not, they are.

[dogma420]

Don't want to nit pick, but from what I've even seen on this website, even avid Z owners seem to have issues with SUs...why would these dealerships be able to handle sync'ing SUs but not triples? I understand from my point of view that SUs are easy, but imo back then the double SU setup would probably rank right up on the same level as triples in America circa early 70s...

[e_racer1999]

i dunno, 2 throats does not equal 6 throats. even with crappy tuning, SUs can run pretty well. try a crappy tune on triples and it's pretty nasty. that being said, although triples are a lot like tuning downdraught webers, SUs are a lot like tuning the simplest of motorcycle carbs, especially since many motorcylces even used SUs. just fromn personal experience, it's a lot easier to hold two tubes to your ears than it is six