Carl Beck

Hi Onuthin: According to the Nissan Publications - the Series II (aka the Late Model 1971 Datsun 240-Z's HLS30)..started production at VIN 21000. The highest Series I Datsun 240-Z we have recorded is HLS30 20438 which has a build date of 01/71. It was sold and titled as a 1971 Datsun 240-Z and is still owned by its original owner. (has rear hatch vents, 240-Z Script on the 1/4 panels, plastic tool covers behind the seats, 70 style seat belts etc). For Dec. 1970 the VIN range we have found runs from HLS30-15605 to HLS30-18124. Car HLS30-18147 has a build date of 01/71 - and it has the Vented Z, with rear hatch vents. So it would seem to be quite possible that your Z was produced with both the Vented Z's and Rear Hatch Vents..... With a 12/70 production, I would expect it to have a) no holes in the steering wheel plastic tool covers behind the seats c) original style seat belt buckles e) no "pockets" in the sun visors f) no vents in the plastic panel on the 1/4 panels If it has a) though f) above - and if you like, I see no reason to retain the Vented Z emblems. If the rear quarters have the holes punched in them - I would worry about getting moisture behind emblems that would delay allowing it to dry out. Side note: Years ago, I ordered new rear quarter panels from Nissan for a Series I 240-Z. One of the Right Rear Quarter Panels has no vent hole stamped in it - the other has a die cut - that outlines where the vent hole would be on a Series II car - but it hasn't been stamped/punched out. So it would seem that the "transition" from the Series I to the Series II cars - started in late Dec. of 1970 - and was fully made by mid Jan. 1971. Between, yes - many parts were mixed between Series on some cars.... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Mike: Jim Koslovski was the original owner - he was asking $8,500.00 for the car. It has an 11/69 production date. He never did supply the original engine serial number... but it should be in the range of L24-23xx or L24-24xx. #238 is in Seattle #239 is in Richardson, TX Several of the 69 Production 240-Z's were not equipped with Emissions Controls that included the air pumps/injectors, nor were they equipped with the gasoline vapor recovery systems. These items were not required in Canada, nor in 49 of the 50 States in the US for cars produced prior to 1970. I don't believe that you can actually "Restore" a 69 production car today for less than $30K when all is said and done. {unless you purchased and saved hundreds of parts over the past ten years or so}. In my opinion - If I had the storage space... I'd be a buyer at $7,500.00 if the car checks out underneath, in the battery area and if it still has it's original engine. So far we have located HLS30 DATSUN 240-Z's 31 cars with VIN's below 100 8 below #25 20 below #50 25 below #75 31 below #100 19 cars with VIN's between 100 and 200 (total of 50 below #200) 29 cars with VIN' between 200 and 300 (total of 79 below #300) 25 cars with VIN's between 300 and 400 (total of 104 below #400) 24 cars with VIN's between 400 and 500 (total of 128 below #500) 12 cars with VIN's between 500 and 789 (with 69 production dates, intermixed with 01/70 production) (total of 140 cars with 69 production dates) Note that "located" means the cars exist today - their condition is another matter. Most are reported to be in very bad condition. Only a few that I know of are really ready to show. The above numbers include #6, #7 and #8 that were not sold to the public but rather were the North American Show Cars - later given to race teams. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Chris/Gnosez (everyone): Same Old - Same Old. I was there in 1996 for the "creditability" comment. ZCCA Borad meeting at the Annual ZCCA Convention in Denver. The rep. from Nissan at that time was patting the ZCCA on the head for their efforts when he said; {I paraphrase..cjb}.... It's good that you have gathered several clubs together, to approach Nissan with one voice - it gives you the creditability you need. Like you Chris - I was amazed that no one from the ZCCA said squat. I was only a guest at the meeting and not a member of the ZCCA, so I remained quite in the meeting. After the meeting I pulled our friend from Nissan aside and told him what I thought. I said; excuse me, but it is Nissan that is loosing money, it is Nissan that lost market share in America for the past 10 years, it is Nissan that need to establish creditability with US at this point. The attitude that Customers must somehow establish creditability with Nissan is exactly why Nissan is going broke today. He replied that he hadn't meant it that way- only that he thought it was a good idea to ban together... I replied that yes I understood that - but did he understand his attitude and that of Nissan seemed to show though all their words and actions.. intended or not. The ZCCA can't really say anything - because they have one hand out for Nissan's funding - and the other over the mouths of their member clubs. As I've said before - it is really hard to tell Nissan that they are doing anything wrong at this point. Huge turn-around, high profit per unit, stock prices up, and the partnership with Renault is one of the very few corporate arrangements that has ever been made to work - maybe the only one. Nissan's profits and sales were down for 2006 about 22% from the prior year.. maybe if that happens again in 2007 - they will be a little more receptive to improving Customer Relations. Nonetheless - Nissan quite following the Total Quality Management Path somewhere around 1980... while Toyota continued on... I don't see Nissan's corporate culture changing much in the near future. As an aside - my neighbor went to the Toyota Dealer day before yesterday, with the intention of buying a new Toyota Forerunner.... two hours of being jacked around by the sales staff.. and she walked out.. Went to the Mazda Dealer the next day - and bought an RX-7 Crossover in 15 minutes... The point being that it's not just the Factory - the Dealer Chains play an equally large roll in all this... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Stephen: You must have mistaken me for someone that follows NASCAR... -vbg- I have no idea what NTCS, NNCS and NBS are.... Carl B.

The 240-Z sold in America held a HUGE profit margin for Nissan Motors Ltd. 70-73. The 510 sold in such numbers that it too was a huge profit center. I believe that I read last year - that Nissan lead the automotive manufacturers in terms of Profit per Unit...{which is why Nissan stock went from $8.00 per share in 98 - to around $32.00 per share by 2006.. I'd have to go back and look at the exact numbers, but I bought in at $8.00 and sold out at $24.00}. A couple of short years after Carlos took over - Nissan had eliminated a $20 BILLION DOLLAR debt and was running the Black again... So I don't believe it has had much to do with profit these last few years, nor in the 70's. As I recall, Nissan spent something like $200,000,000.00 on the entire Dream Garage ad. campaign. All to remind us that they were "DATSUN" and there was a time when Mr. K cared about the end customers here in America. On the other hand, I'm not sure what they spent on the Vintage Z Program - let's say it was $40K per car and they resold...what was it? 38 Z's. Let's guess that they sold the Vintage Z's to the dealers for $20K each... that means that Nissan USA spent $760,000.00 on the Vintage Z Program - for which they got about ...what.....$10,000,000.00 worth of free publicity. I'd say that they made out just fine on that deal... Nissan never was made up of car guys. There were of course a few exceptions, and there were of course different times... but that seems to be the case at most large manufacturers... No question that it would be nice if another real "car guy" was at the helm of Nissan USA agian. Just as the Toyota 2000GT revived the Sports/GT project at Nissan in 65... perhaps Toyota entering NASCAR will wake up someone at Nissan again... On second thought maybe that wouldn't be a good thing for use either.. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Gary: Just a fine point of clarification - so we don't confuse anyone following or reading later. Hagerty doesn't have an "exclusion" for occasionally driving a Classic Car to work. Exclusions in a Policy outline specific things that are excluded from coverage. Their policies provide "coverage" for occasional pleasure driving of your Classic Car. The main point here is that your Classic is covered - if your intended use, at any point in time, was based on deriving Pleasure from an occasional drive. So if you get up one day and decide to drive your Classic Car in to work -because it's a fine sunny day and you just want to show it off ... it's covered. It would not be covered - if you intend to rotate the task of getting to and from work - between your Classic Car and your daily driver. In this case there is no intention of Pleasure Driving... but rather an intention of sharing the "duty" of getting you to and from work. Example: It was beautiful today here in the Tampa Bay Area of Florida. Clear, dry and about 72 degrees (F)... I got my white 72 240-Z out of the garage - and drove it about 20 miles from Clearwater over to Tampa (across Tampa Bay)... to the International Shopping Mall... Traffic and Mall Parking were very light, so I parked the Z right outside the doors to one of the entrances to the Mall. Ran in, made a purchase - and yes - when I returned to the car - there was about four guys standing around looking it over. <VBG> Z compliments were accepted and Z stories exchanged... it's part of the fun of owning one... Purely a Pleasure Drive - my brief stop at the Mall - well that was pleasure too. I do not normally use my Classic Cars to run routine errands, do daily shopping trips, nor use it in leu of my daily driver..... but a 40 mile round trip spin in the 240-Z... even with a stop at the Mall.. would be covered under my policy with the Hagerty. Fine lines.... sometimes hard to keep clear... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Kerrigan: Personally, I believe that one should, in most cased, do what the Engineers that designed and built the car - tell you to do. According to them, the outer lip of the windshield gasket is to be glued to the car body with an adhesive. If I had to guess, I'd say that because the air pressure inside the car changes from negative (sucking exhaust gasses in through a loose deck lid seal) to positive (relative pressures) when you roll the windows up, with the fresh air vents open - that seal along with the glass is designed to flex a bit. Also because our unibodies are not actually the most rigid of structures.. they do actually flex quite a bit themselves, so that rubber gasket is not only a seal it's a shock absorber of sorts.. Gluing the outside lip of that gasket to the car body simply assures that area isn't the one doing the moving and absorbing the shock - when the main body of the gasket is supposed to be. Nissan doesn't specify exactly what "adhesive" to use - but I would guess that close to 40 years after it was originally designed - you'd be pretty safe using a modern silicone sealer/adhesive. Looking at a few old cars I've taken apart - it looks like they used the same weather stripping adhesive they used on all the other weather strips/seals - the yellow 3M stuff.. I think you made the right decision - to take it to an experienced automotive glass installer... Watch them anyway - if the installer lays out the windshield on a support surface - applies a very small amount of sealer around the edge of the glass, Then puts the gasket on the glass. Then applies a very thin coat to the surface of the gasket, where the gasket would meet the outside of the windshield frame (where it contacts the outside of the body). Then installs the stainless steel trim..... Then puts a cord around the inside channel of the gasket to get ready to install it Then sprays a little soapy water to windshield frame It is most likely he's done a few before. If on the other hand he intends to put the stainless trim in - after putting the windshield on the car - stop him!! Once the gasket is in place in the windshield frame - it is NEXT to Impossible to install the stainless steel trim with out damaging the the rubber on the gasket that is supposed to cover it. Actually that "trim" is not there for looks.... it's there to keep the gasket from deforming in the wrong direction. Just my opinion...FWIW, Carl B.

Bump...

Great - thanks Victor... Carl B.

Hi Avery: The fact that you mentioned that you "planed to use" your car for transportation to/from work on a regular basis - even if once a week, automatically makes it a daily driver... even if only one day a week, or every other week. In effect, regardless if you realized it or not - you told them you planned to use your Classic Car in place of your daily transportation, just to get you to/from work. I've been with the Hagerty for many many years - and every once in a while - I'd drive one of my Classic, Collectible or Special Interest cars into work - just to show it off. The company I worked for held "Classic Car Appreciation Days" about twice a year - and everyone brought their Classics to work for a parking lot lunch hour show.. In both cases the cars were fully covered under the terms and conditions of the Hagerty Policy. That's quite a different situation than the planned use of the car for transportation to/from work. The fact of the matter is - Classic, Collectible and Special Interest policies are regulated by the States the insurance is sold in. For that reason, the CC&SI policies are not allowed to offer the same coverage as Full Line Insurance Companies what write normal automobile insurance. For the most part the CC&SI carriers full a need, that is left void by regular insurance companies - ie. to insure cars older than 15 to 20 years, to offer Agreed Values on cars with no traditional Book Values and very few data points in terms of "current market values". The rule really is - that you can not use a Classic Car for daily transportation, nor use it to replace your daily transportation should that daily transportation be tied up or out of service for the day. All CC&SI insurers can offer very low rates because they are very picky about your driving record, your age, the number of other potential drivers in the household... that is especially true of teenage drivers... Nonetheless, better to be honest up front - than to have something happen then only to find out that coverage was being denied because you misrepresented your planned use of the car. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Bob: As all things - moderation. Don't over insure.. I see insurance as a way of laying off risk that I can not afford to realize by myself. Small claims like things under $5K won't change my lifestyle, nor keep me broke for a lifetime. The risks associated with Personal Liability represent very large risk however. Since I do drive all my cars on occasion, I insure mostly against personal liability actions when it comes to Classic Car insurance. {lets face it, we all still drive relatively inexpensive Classics and even a $20K loss wouldn't be the end of the world - but a $300,000.00 or more judgment for personal liability would be a really killer...} The real value here is the fact that since you drive the car so little, and most people are usually very careful when driving their Classic's.. the exposure for the insurance company is also greatly reduced.. and in turn the premiums are very low by comparison to normal automobile insurance. You don't want to set an Agreed Value much above the actual replacement costs of your car, because then you are paying higher premiums than needed. However you do want to assure that your Z would be properly repaired, rather than totalled out for less than it's value. To me, the real discriminator among any of the Classic Car Insurance speciality companies is their Customer Service. So far, in the last 15 years I have not had one person write that they were not happy campers with the Hagerty. Like I said, they are very real Car People... FWIW, Carl B.

I don't know who "they" are - but your local Datsun Dealer had one for sale back in the day... Part Number 99990-0004 Luggage Rack This was a Nissan Authorized, Dealer Installed Accessory <a href=http://zhome.com/History/72AccBroch.htm TARGET=NEW> Luggage Rack</a> I doubt you'll find too many today - took me about six years of watching E-Bay to finally find one... I also had a roof mounted TENT that was neat as heck... long since lost... FWIW, Carl B.

Carbon build up - or a deposit preventing a valve from fully closing. Did you check the valve adjustment before the compression test? Run the test with a warm engine? FWIW Carl B.

Oh.. thanks Gary... now that you've told everyone - no need for a PM -vbg-... I had have Collectible, Classic and Special Interest vehicles insured with Class Car Insurance companies for about 40 years now.. I've been with several different companies over that period. YES - DARN - after driving 240-Z's for 35 years without ever bending a fender - I bent the right front fender, front bumper, broke the headlight bucket, bent the lower right finishers, BRE Spook broken and right front turn signal cracked.....dented the hood dead center as well. On my white 72 that I had recently finished "Refreshing". I'm the second owner on the car, it had about 60K miles and I had about $16K in the car and the Refresh... I rolled down a slight incline, leaving a shopping center parking lot... when a Ford Expedition stopped suddenly and very unexpectedly in front of me - I hit it at about 5 mph... I saw it pull out onto the street ahead of me, I looked back up the street one more time to assure traffic was clear - let my foot off the brake and started to roll down the incline - out toward the street - looked back ahead - and BANG.. hit the Ford... that for no reason had unexpectedly stopped again about twenty feet ahead...#$*&%(*%#@! I called Hagerty a few days later - and told them I had a claim to fill... CB> - - -is me HI> -- is the lady in Claims at Hagerty Insurance CB> Hello, I hate to say it, but I have had a minor accident with one of my 240-Z's and need to know what the process is for filing a claim. HI> Oh, that too bad, are you alright? BR> Yes, I'm fine, just bent the nose of my 72 Z up a bit. HI> I'm sorry to hear that - you must feel horrible. Just take it to the repair shop of our choice and let us know how much it is going to cost. If you don't have a good repair shop that you deal with and trust in your area - give me a call and we'll get you recommendations from other Classic Car owners in your area. If there is anything else you need, or we can do, just give me a call. CB> Is there a number to which I need to FAX an estimate, or how do I get approval for the body shop to proceed? HI> if you like, you can FAX the estimate to me at xxx-xxx-xxxx..... Again, if there is anything else we can do, just give me a call. So I took the car to my body shop - told them to replace every bent/broken part with only new OEM Nissan parts.. then repaint the car. The car was stripped down again (meaning all panels taken back off.. all glass out back out, the interior removed etc etc... just like we had done it the first time)... No real body work - just paint the new parts along with the car and bolt everything back together. As I recall it was around $6K... (had to get some NOS parts out of Charlie in Canada) The body shop FAX'd the estimate to the number at the Hagety after going over it with me ... and told them to proceed with the work. About seven or eight days later - I was at the shop checking on the progress... and my bodyman said that he hadn't heard back from the insurance company. I told him I'd call them when I got home. CB> Hello - I was just at my body shop and the manager said he had not received authorization to proceed with the repair of my Z. Can you tell me how long that usually takes? HI> Hold on Mr. Beck, I'll check to see what's going on........ Hello Mr. Beck, we sent the check out three days ago - you should have it in the mail today or tomorrow. If you don't receive it in a another day or two let me know. Send us some new pictures when it's done - If there is anything else we can do - just give me a call. The next day - I received the check from the Hagety - in full. I took it to the body shop and the manager said he'd never seen anything like that... I handed him the check, and told him I'd sign off on it when the car was done - and as usual when I was happy. <vbg>... If Hagety's premiums were twice as much as everyone else - which they aren't - you couldn't get me to switch carriers. I like their total involvement in the Classic Car hobby, their support for votech schools to train people in auto restoration, their road service coverage and most of all - I really like the way they treat their CUSTOMERS... The only thing I don't like - is that they implemented one of those damn automated phone answering systems... and I've told them that. IMHO - you can not do better than the Hagerty. They are real car people and a pleasure to deal with. FWIW, Carl B.

Well it was worth $10,700.00 to E-Bayer "ben_stamper" - who had three feedbacks... Was it "worth" it - yes, to ben at least... was worth $10,600.00 to the second highest bidder... If the car was "as presented".... Rebuilt Engine:.... at least $5K in that one Repaint...top coat ... maybe $3500.00n (would have to see the car and the before and after pictures) Rebuilt 81/83 5spd. with 3.56 rear gear $750.00 at least. Tokiko Gas Shocks, new suspension bushings...at least $250.00 There's $9500.00 - so for an extra $1,200.00 the buyer got a fairly clean 1971 240-Z... with an interior that looks very good, Granted it isn't perfect - wrong hood, sun roof... The new owner can drive that car now - enjoy it for a couple years... and if later a cleaner car can be found - he will most likely get most of his money back out of this car... The seller on the other hand was lucky if he got half his money back... Three or four years ago - this would have been a $4,500.00 car at best.... FWIW, Carl B.

Of the four 240-Z's that were in the warehouse, that Nissan did not want to keep - 1 is at Universal Nissan, 2 are owned by a friend of mine, and 1 is now owned by another member of this forum. BTW - Nissan didn't own all the cars pictured in that Poster... FWIW, Carl B.

$450.00 to rebuild your 5spd., if you carry it in to the shop - sounds reasonable to me. $750.00 to $800.00 for a rebuilt 5spd. also sounds reasonable. You can figure $150.00/$250.00 for a good used but worn 5spd., then $100.00 for the mechanic to go pull one out of the junk yard. In which case he is responsible for making sure it's a good rebuildable unit of the proper type/year to start with. Depends on where you are and how plentiful 5spd.s are. $850.00/ $875.00 to swap-in a fully rebuilt 5spd. - into your car - Drive Out so to speak... FWIW, Carl B.

If they are actually selling... With hidden bidder I.D. you no longer have a right to know who your bidding against. The sellers brother, wife or mother could be bidding the price higher and higher.. Either to get you to raise your bid, or bid you up to the sellers real selling price. Bidding on E-Bay took a serious turn for the worse when they started hidding the bidder's ID's. I wouldn't buy anything there - it was bad enough before just taking a change on the car.... FWIW, Carl

If that piece had not been modified - and it still had the correct mouning studs and rubber gaskets etc... as it was originally installed... It would sell for or above the $125.00 price. As this one sits... it is no longer a collectible item.. FWIW, Carl

Actually it was designed to let hot air out from under the hood, mainly do to Percolation - and it did help with the vapor lock problem. But the electric fuel pump and fuel line insulation were the main solutions for vapor lock. The 73 240-Z's with the emissions carb's suffered from vapor lock while running - and then very hard starting after being ran. From the Datsun Fuel System Modifications Manual: PERCOLATION: Percolation causes a richer than normal air-fuel mixture. It affects the carburetor float bowl and the high pressure fuel line (the outlet side of the fuel pump), and may cause hot start problems. Percolation can come about in several ways: 1. Heat Soak - back into the fuel pump and high pressure fuel lines can raise the pressure enough to unseat the float bowl needle valve. This condition is known as "after fill". 2. Float bowl evaporation may lower the float level while there is residual pressure in the fuel line. This pressure then forces an excess amount of fuel into the float bowl. 3. Fuel evaporates in the float bowl, and the resulting vapor pressure may not vent out quickly enough. The high pressure developed in the float bowl forces fuel into the intake manifold. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Ron: See: <a href=http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/AandBtranny.htm TARGET=NEW>This Article on the Z Car Home Page</a> The part you listed is shown there. FWIW, Carl B. Cleaarwater, FL

Hi Alan: Could be that they were afraid of all the speeding fines they'd accumulate. Looking at the over-all gearing of US Spec. 240-Z's and Euro Spec cars... <pre> Over-all gearing US Euro. 1. 11.92 11.53 2. 7.36 7.25 3. 4.77 5.11 4. 3.36 3.90 5. 3.32 </pre> It would seem that in terms of over-all gearing the US Spec. Cars are geared very slightly lower in 1st and 2nd. Nonetheless it seems to me that if you stayed in the power band - 3,500 RPM to say 4,500 RPM for normal driving.. You'd be doing something like 21/27 mph in 1st, then 35/45 mph in 2nd. At that you'd be at the speed limit for driving on city streets, most places in America. Keeping the US Spec. car at the power band in 3rd gear would put you in the 55/70 mph range. Keeping the US Spec. car in 4th gear and in the Rev Range would be 75/97 mph. That would be at or well above the speed limits in most places... It's actually about the same for the Euro Spec. cars - 1st gear 22/28 mph, 2nd gear 35/45 mph, 3rd gear 50/64 mph, 4th gear 65/84 mph and 5th gear 78/99 mph. Final drive in both cars is also about the same.. 3.36 vs 3.32 I can see how having that extra step between 3rd gear and the final drive would be an advantage in road racing,where the on track conditions would benefit from staying in a higher Rev Range.. 4000 RPM to 6000 RPM with a race prepared engine - and where the associated speeds would be allowed - but I don't see it being of much use for a sports/GT here in the States driven on the streets, nor here in the States driven on the Freeways at 70-80 mph. On the tracks of course all the teams ran various competition 5 speeds and rear end ratio's selected for the specific track. Given the market competition here in the States and given the average use of the car here - a 5spd. simply wasn't called for. By 1977, with a heaver car and given the competition in the market, a 5sd. for the 280Z made more sense. Personally, as I stated earlier - I put a 5sp. in an otherwise stock 240-Z, mostly to drop the engine RPM at 80 mph for longer drives (6 to 18 hours) to reduce noise in the car... and partly due to the fact that a gallon of gas that was $0.29 in 1970 - is now $2.25. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Arne: Just a point of interest - at the ZFest in Florida last fall - we looked at a Series I car with a type B five speed. The owner used the shifter from I believe he said a 200SX. No cutting of the tunnel was necessary as that shifter had the correct "S" shaped bend from the factory. he was using the stock rubber boot and vinyl shift lever cover as well. So I guess there is a way to do it... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Tom: Yes it was the stock set up for the 280ZX - and the 280ZX was heavily bogged down with emissions controls and putting out 135 BHP (132 for California), plus being about 600lbs heavier than a 240-Z (2350lbs vs 2970lbs). So in that set-up - less power and more weight - the 3.9 was needed {the 79 ZX was only 2900lbs.. so 3.7). 15.7 pounds per HP for a stock 240 vs 22 lbs per HP for a stock 280ZX. The ZX simply had to be geared lower for stop and go - and having the 5th gear added to make the reported MPG acceptable.. True also that many people that make the swap - do so because they are more motivated by acceleration performance improvements - than I am - I clearly stated that my goal was better over-all driveability. My main point was that in my opinion the stock 3.36 is just fine for my intended use. I do believe that everyone has to really think about their intended use.. BTW - if you use the 77/79 5spd. the transmission gearing is all but the same as the 4 spd.. only with the additional overdrive 5th. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Guys: If you like the one in the Top Left - you'll enjoy this.... 1961 Ford Styling Studio - is visited by "Japanese Designers"... I meet **** Avrey - a pretty accomplished Designer himself, and he gave me the write-up that appeared in the Automotive News April 3, 1961. <a href=http://zhome.com/History/Ford/Ford.htm TARGET=NEW> The Shape Of Things To Come</a> Also check out his original design for a Jet Ski when he worked at Christ Craft) and the T-Tops he designed for the Datsun 240-Z. **** also designed the Christ Craft Commander... today also a highly collectible treasure itself. See: <a href=http://www.commanderclub.com/ TARGET=NEW>Commander Club</a> FWIW, Carl B.