Car Shows...what should the ideal car show be Judging-and taking into consideration?

[hls30.com]

At last years convnetion, under the park between the Westin and the Convention Center I had a conversation with an officer of the ZCCA who has a very seriously Modified Z. In the course of that conversation and several subsequent emails, we talked about Carshows (not just the ZCCA variety) in general and what Judging actually looks for-and what he felt it should, I have been weighing a good number of those conversations/emails and other similar ones I had with several people within our comunity from Zrush-while he was DJing at Zfest 2006, to a couple local club members at a Car Show weekend before last, to a recent thread here.. My opinion is that there are a lot people who want to win with what they have, and not with what is judged

The ZCCA officer though that modifications should be judged for performance more than looks-I put "that's what racing is for" on a hook and that wasn't the bait he was looking for. His car is seriously modified, and was in the convention show, but his car is modified for seat time, not for resting in an Airconditioned Convention center avoiding deductions.

Zrush spoke about his vision of his car, the journey of taking it from as purchased to as presented...and how people responded to it.

I have had conversations about there needing to be classes for people who do all of their own work, and people whos only involvement in transformations is writing checks-my opinion is there is room for both...but how do you get some of the checkwriters to tell the truth-I have seen videos of work done in a shop claimed as being done by the owner-when he wan't in the video...or any of the pictures documenting the work...

Then there is the" your Nismo is three months old, and my car is 43 years old, which one deserves a trophy"?

Personally, Any car can be beautiful, and most people will appreciate what was done to a derelict to bring it back from the brink, most people will also appreciate the story of a survivor, and I don't know too many with a contempt for a new Z right off the lot-though I was pretty damn close to that with the 350Z(marketing issues-I have mellowed...).

What would you choose as class divisions?

The poll choices are not the answers I want, think about it, what would you reward as a Judge. I made the assumption that spotlessly clean and outstanding fit and finish are givens-I also left out a Performance upgrade class because I am not sure how to evaluate that off a track...and in a static setting.

I want your thoughts!

Yes I see that I typo'd custom...I didn't want to time out and have to start over...and you can't set up a pole in wordpad-it counts in the same time span as any post-I won't tell you how I know that,,,

Edited September 3, 2012 by hls30.com
removal of tripping point.

[gnosez]

Okay, please explain how the Gold Cup/Medallion are addressed by ZCCA and are influenced by Nissan and sponsors. Having judged 8 out of the last 11 conventions, started the pre-show free classification clinic series and conducted 4 of the judges meeting, I'm really at a loss to understand what that means.

I am also very interested in hearing from others what the difference is between "winning with what they have vs winning with what is judged (aka. by the current car classification and judging rules)".

Maybe I'm wrong but that sounds to me like folks who don't have the time or resources to get their Zs to a level of cleanliness and perfection required under the current rules. To me that smacks of an all inclusiveness requirement, like no one loses at T-ball. It would make judging easier I have to say since everyone gets a trophy. Or there is always People's Choice.

If one starts with "STOCK" then everything that deviates from whatever the benchmark you set as "STOCK" is in some form or another a sub-group of the original stock vision. Say, by modifications for instance.

Now there are other means as well to break out a new sub-group. No engine bay judging, just the interior and exterior. Oh, wait we have that, it's called "Daily Driver".

What has been missing is a survivor/un-restored class. Judging specs would need to be written and I for one would not volunteer for that job.

I guess bottom line for me is the fact that once a year, Z folks from all over the US and Canada get together to see who has the best car in their respective class. This is not a local club, a regional event like say ZDayZ or Bronson, this is the annual ZCCA convention. This is the place where the best car wins.

[72 OJ]

As a judge on an engine swap Z I will reward, the fit and finished look on the mods, the use of over counter components ( meaning a trip to NAPA or a Nissan dealer for replacements parts), a well constructed mod- made to complement the mods mechanics .... electronics, suspension,brakes,sub frame reinforcement,exhaust... and I will give high rewards in keeping the Z to look as close to original..plus it must be a completely operational on the road car.

Edited September 2, 2012 by 72 OJ

[psdenno]

I haven't entered, or attended, a Datsun Z car show, but have participated in several national/international Porsche shows as a judge, organizer, rules committee member, and entrant. My favorite events have classes for stock, modified, and custom, as well as "senior class" for class winners who have won three 1st place awards at the clubs earlier shows. The senior class pits top cars against top cars and opens up the other classes for new opportunities to be a winner. It's important to keep everyone competitive with a chance at the top class awards and to level the playing field.

Dennis

[Arne]

Deleted my own post. Was off-topic and not relevant to the thread.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Arne

[hls30.com]

Okay, please explain how the Gold Cup/Medallion are addressed by ZCCA and are influenced by Nissan and sponsors. Having judged 8 out of the last 11 conventions, started the pre-show free classification clinic series and conducted 4 of the judges meeting, I'm really at a loss to understand what that means.

I am also very interested in hearing from others what the difference is between "winning with what they have vs winning with what is judged (aka. by the current car classification and judging rules)".

Maybe I'm wrong but that sounds to me like folks who don't have the time or resources to get their Zs to a level of cleanliness and perfection required under the current rules. To me that smacks of an all inclusiveness requirement, like no one loses at T-ball. It would make judging easier I have to say since everyone gets a trophy. Or there is always People's Choice.

If one starts with "STOCK" then everything that deviates from whatever the benchmark you set as "STOCK" is in some form or another a sub-group of the original stock vision. Say, by modifications for instance.

Now there are other means as well to break out a new sub-group. No engine bay judging, just the interior and exterior. Oh, wait we have that, it's called "Daily Driver".

What has been missing is a survivor/un-restored class. Judging specs would need to be written and I for one would not volunteer for that job.

I guess bottom line for me is the fact that once a year, Z folks from all over the US and Canada get together to see who has the best car in their respective class. This is not a local club, a regional event like say ZDayZ or Bronson, this is the annual ZCCA convention. This is the place where the best car wins.

John,

You seem to be getting bent out of shape by something that does not say what you read into it. Defending anything by brining up parts of your history tells me I manged to get your dander up! That was not my intention-I admit could have been clearer.

Find one word of criticism from me about a ZCCA convention or ZCCA show...I don't believe you can...I have left things undone that I believe need doing to support the ZCCA, but none of that is what this tread is about...It is about what people think should be judged in a car show. This thread primarily came about because of conversations I have had with ZCCA members, ZCCA show winners, ZCCA Judges, and NON ZCCA members, show winners and judges. I am not out to change, adapt, modify, alter, revamp, reconstitute, or regurgitate any ZCCA event, document, personnel, or custom. I am out to hear what other people think a car show should be. If you want to read more into it, I can't stop you, and won't continue to try, but as the OP, I can tell you that ain't what I had in mind.

Edited September 3, 2012 by hls30.com
removed no longer pertinent content.

[Diseazd]

IMHO, there's nothing wrong with the system as she stands. There's pretty much something for everyone as things stand. A stock class Z is beautiful, but anyone who grew up with Z's in the early 70's knows that the "cool" Z's didn't stay completely stock very long......at least in Atanta, and California and everywhere else for that matter. Wheels, spoilers, exhaust etc. only enhanced the mystique of the Datsun 240Z. Therefore, 6 to 8 mods should qualify an owner for the street modified class....the one with most of the entries. I don't know about past years, but last year (my first ZCON), it seems that Gold Madallion winners were limited to show cars that were modified to hide all the cad plated items that are so damned hard to get perfect. John, Todd, Fred and all the other judges at ZCON 2011.....you did a great job......you'll never please everyone......so continue your work. The best and most beautiful Z should win in each class......whether the owner did all the work or not. No one is an expert at every phase of restoration......"Trailer Queens" will (and should) continue to take first place.

[hls30.com]

This isn't a criticism, critique or commentary on, of, or about the ZCCA judging system, it is a question for the individuals here, what would they judge as important...

I don't see any issues with the ZCCA judging system, I think others may have their own ideas... I think stock should be stock-money spent isn't the issue in the stock class, but at the same time, when you have someone takes initiative and casts his own manifolds I think his work should be seriously acknowledged-more so that the guy who threw money at ebay or a vendor and simply bolted on an existing part-there is a difference there-much the same as buying a new car and entering it and taking 40 year old and making it new....I am not sure how the distinction of made and installed vs bought and installed should be made, but I think it should be. That's part of what I am after in this thread... How do/should we award the distinction between innovation and time vs purely monetary investment.

Should a guy who bought a car ready for a show be as well received as a guy who built one...Who is the car guy there?

Edited September 3, 2012 by hls30.com

[psdenno]

How do/should we award the distinction between innovation and time vs purely monetary investment.

Should a guy who bought a car ready for a show be as well received as a guy who built one...Who is the car guy there?

I think you can award innovation & time when the car is not in stock class. Reward time & effort when the car is presented as stock. The more the car moves into the custom category due to body, engine, and interior modifications, the more innovation time, money and good taste come into play.

As for the guy who buys a car "ready for show" is he any less a car guy? It's the car that

s being judged, not the owner. Of course the attitude and smarminess of the owner is easy to personally judge - just no trophy to take home.

Dennis

[gnosez]

At any show there will be someone who bought a car and won a trophy. That happens at Pebble Beach and at a Z convention. I believe I now understand your concerns but this is not a judging issue this is a moral/ethical issue and most judges are neither. Okay, maybe Chris and Jim are...maybe.

I would suggest a re-reading of the rules concerning Cup and Medallion winners. One is for stock and the other is for anyone not stock. More than one car can win at any convention. In fact in Savannah a Z32 won in stock I believe with the highest score ever recorded if I remember correctly. You win one of these trophies because your car was as close to perfect as it can be whether it be stock or Ultra modified...

Edited September 3, 2012 by hls30.com
UN NEEDED INFLAMATORY DIRECTIVE

[hls30.com]

You just aren't getting it...,

I enjoy ZCCA shows as they are-other than a small issue with the quantity of qualified judges available, a well organized and thought out event. I know the rules pretty darn well, I know where to find them if I have a question. I am conscientious enough to review them several times before, and cary a copy while, judging. I also know they are not not the subject of this thread... Once again, don't feel I am questioning, or threatening them I am not-they simply are not the intended focus of this thread.

Edited September 3, 2012 by hls30.com
removed no longer pertinent content.

[Wade Nelson]

Daily drivers should be in a different category than those vehicles that people keep in garages and only haul out for car shows. Cars are meant to be driven, not just polished.