Day/night feature on Euro rearview mirrors?

[Mike B]

I have a NOS rearview mirror that doesn't look like any 240Z mirror I have seen before. It has a different style case and no day/night knob. The part number is 96321-E8300. That number is listed in my RHD S30 parts catalog as Assy-Inside Back Mirror and notes Applied Model-Europe. There is also HLS30U written in black marker on the side of the box and what looks like a date code of 1 8 23 on the back of the mirror stalk. I assume that means a production date of August 23, 1971? So is this the type of mirror that came on European S30s in 1971, or is this another mirror someone put in an old box? If it is original, why did European mirrors not have a day/night knob?

-Mike

[26th-Z]

I would guess that "Europeans" know better than to drive behind someone with their brights on and thus, no need for a dimmer.

Is the stalk slim like the early types or is thicker like the later mirrors? It looks like the thicker type.

[HS30-H]

Mike,

As far as I am aware, all 'European' market models had a dipping interior rear view mirror as standard equipment. UK models did too.

I think you are correct about the manufacturing date on the mirror itself, but I don't feel that the part itself looks like what should be in that box ( if you know what I mean ). Your mirror doesn't look anything like the non-dipping mirror ( 96321 - E4100 ) seen on the S30-S ( 'Z-Std' ) and PS30-SB ( 'PZR' ) either.

Could it be a case of the part not matching up with the box? Contents switched in the past? The hand written 'HLS30 U' doesn't seem to match up with what's in the box or the part number.

I've got a vague recollection that there was a difference in glass tint on one version of the dipping mirrors ( hence a different part number ), but I can't remember much more than that...

Alan T.

[jerz]

Mike,

I read this thread with interest. My (UK from first registration) 1978 260Z coupe is equipped with a non-dipping rear view mirror. I searched through some UK brochures and almost all cars in these appear to have the dipping type. My owner's manual (see attachment), however, lists both a "glare-proof type" (day/night type) and a "conventional nonglare type". I have attached some photographs of the mirror which appears similar to the item you have, although the part number for mine (from my fiche, not from the part itself) is "96321-N3500".

Regards.

[Mike B]

Is the stalk slim like the early types or is thicker like the later mirrors? It looks like the thicker type.

Chris, it is the later style of stalk, the exact same as I have on my 5/72. I took some pictures of the mystery mirror and the original from my 5/72. The date on my original mirror is 2 5 18, so May 18, 1972.

... I don't feel that the part itself looks like what should be in that box ( if you know what I mean ). Your mirror doesn't look anything like the non-dipping mirror ( 96321 - E4100 ) seen on the S30-S ( 'Z-Std' ) and PS30-SB ( 'PZR' ) either.

Could it be a case of the part not matching up with the box? Contents switched in the past? The hand written 'HLS30 U' doesn't seem to match up with what's in the box or the part number.

Alan, that was my initial thought; maybe the part currently in the box is not what originally came in it. However, after Jerz's post I am not so sure now. I agree the HLS30U written on the side doesn't seem to match up with a part only listed in the R-Drive parts catalog. The card on the side of the catalog says it is the November 1972 binder, revised December 1972. So the 96321-E4100 mirror is non-dipping? That is the other part number shown in the R-Drive parts catalog and it only notes "Exc Europe". There are no applied dates or superseded part numbers shown. The June 1974 USA and Canada parts catalog notes 96321-E4100 is applied to the automatic model and 96321-E4600 is applied to the manual model with 96321-E4601 replacing it at some point (no dates are given).

My (UK from first registration) 1978 260Z coupe is equipped with a non-dipping rear view mirror. I searched through some UK brochures and almost all cars in these appear to have the dipping type. My owner's manual (see attachment), however, lists both a "glare-proof type" (day/night type) and a "conventional nonglare type". I have attached some photographs of the mirror which appears similar to the item you have, although the part number for mine (from my fiche, not from the part itself) is "96321-N3500".

Jerz, thanks for posting your pictures and owner's manual. That is very interesting. My mystery mirror appears to be exactly the same one that you have (both IKI-8006). Does your fiche have any applied dates or superseded part numbers? I have a Nissan Motor Corp in USA parts price list and part number supersession listing dated 1/1/1990. It shows 96321-E4100 as being replaced by 96321-S5000, but 96321-E8300 and 96321-N3500 are not listed.

-Mike

[jerz]

Mike,

Thanks for posting up this information. Further to your request, please find attached a scan of my fiche book (scan one, which is the final version, printed in 1979) relating to the "R-Drive" rear view mirror variants from the first to the final cars. The second and third scans show the non-European and European options respectively up to 1973, with the subsequent scan (four) illustrating the post-August 1973 fiche. I have checked on my 2003 Nissan FAST CD and part number 96321-N3500 does not supersede, although part number 96321-E8300 does, with the subsequent reference being 96321-0T500.

Regards.

Jeremy.

[Mike B]

Jerz,

Thanks for posting the additional scans. So it appears that my mirror may be the correct part for the non-dipping mirror (non-glare proof according to your manual). It sounds like they may not be very common, since Alan wasn't aware of them. I wonder if earlier UK owner's manuals also show them as being optional.

-Mike

[jerz]

Mike,

It would appear our non-day/night mirrors are slightly different. Although they both have the same markings on the left-hand side (looking at the rear), the one on my car has additional inscribing on the right hand side. I suspect the "E2" markings on my mirror may have something to do with the product being used in Europe (E = "Europe"), whereas the earlier type of mirror may not have required this information. As the mirror in my car would have been produced later, legislative changes may have required the markings to have subsequently been applied to it. Other than the right hand (from rear) marking differences, they appear identical.

Unfortunately, I do not have a UK owners manual for the 240Z, or first 260Z's, so cannot determine if the non-day/night rear view mirrors were optional in the earlier cars, but suspect that they were.

Regards.

Jeremy.

Edited October 10, 2010 by jerz

[Mike B]

Here is a picture of a non-dipping mirror from what I was told is a JDM owners manual (not sure if that is correct though). It looks like it could be the same mirror.

-Mike

[HS30-H]

So it appears that my mirror may be the correct part for the non-dipping mirror (non-glare proof according to your manual).

I still say that it doesn't look like the early ( E4100 ) non-dipping mirror, and the N3500 and E8300 part numbers don't appear to match with a 1971 inspection stamp.

It sounds like they may not be very common, since Alan wasn't aware of them. I wonder if earlier UK owner's manuals also show them as being optional.

IKI supplied similar mirrors for other Nissan models, so I wouldn't put too much faith in the numbers stamped on the back of the mirror housing. I still feel unsure that your mirror is in the correct box ( which would appear to be the only thing linking it to the E8300 part number at this point - yes? ) and a couple of other things don't seem to add up either. I believe E8300 is the dipping type.

As I wrote before, the dipping type ( "glare proof" ) mirror was fitted as standard equipment in Europe and the UK, at least until late into production. You see them in the road tests, in the sales literature and on the cars that are still around. I don't know why anyone would choose to have a non-dipping type as an option when the dipping type was standard ( who would even think of something as trivial as that, and what benefit would there be in having the non-dipping type when the dipping type worked in two ways anyway? ), so I'm wondering if this was a late safety legislation issue in a particular territory? That 'E' mark on jerz's mirror would appear to point towards something like that.

jerz's scan of the late R-Drive parts list shows that the E4100 was "EXC EUROPE". That means it wasn't offered as standard eqpt. on European market cars.

Here is a picture of a non-dipping mirror from what I was told is a JDM owners manual (not sure if that is correct though). It looks like it could be the same mirror.

No, that would be the E4100 and if the b/w picture shows an S30-S 'Z-Std' no-frills model or a PS30-SB 'Z432-R' model then that would make sense. I don't believe that's what you have in your box.

I have an E4100 in storage in my garages. I shall take some photos of it tomorrow and put them up here.

Alan T.

[Mike B]

I still say that it doesn't look like the early ( E4100 ) non-dipping mirror, and the N3500 and E8300 part numbers don't appear to match with a 1971 inspection stamp.

Alan, I guess at this point we don't know whether the E4100 was the non-dipping version or not. I'll be interested to see pictures of the one you have in storage. Hopefully we can trust that it is in the correct box . According to the USA and Canada parts catalogs, the E4100 (which you say is the non-dipping version) was applied to "automatic" models, while the E4600 was applied to "manual" models. As far as I know, non-dipping mirrors never came in any North American market cars and there was no difference in mirrors based on the type of transmission the cars came with. I can't think of a logical reason why that would be the case. Therefore, I don't think we can rely too much on the parts catalog information. I'm sure you'll agree that "Europe" and "Exc Europe" are not great descriptions of exactly what type of mirrors they are or what markets they were available in.

I would also disagree that the E8300 doesn't match up with a Aug 1971 inspection stamp, since the R-drive catalog page I posted a picture of earlier shows both the E4100 and E8300 listed.

I don't know why anyone would choose to have a non-dipping type as an option when the dipping type was standard ( who would even think of something as trivial as that, and what benefit would there be in having the non-dipping type when the dipping type worked in two ways anyway?

I agree, I don't know why anyone would choose to have a non-dipping type mirror, unless it was a legal requirement. Yet, it sounds like the non-dipping mirrors came standard on the S30-S and the PS30-SB models. It seems it would have cost Nissan more to make and stock two versions of the mirror rather than just make the dipping type standard on all JDM cars. Also, Esprist noted in another thread that Nismo offered an optional "racing mirror" with no dipping function http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showpost.php?p=333346&postcount=1. What would be the benefit of such a mirror? It appears to be about the same size as a standard mirror.

-Mike

Edited October 10, 2010 by Mike B

[HS30-H]

Alan, I guess at this point we don't know whether the E4100 was the non-dipping version or not.

Look in to my eyes. Trust me. You are feeling veeeeerrry sleeeeeepy. E4100 IS A NON-DIPPING MIRROR!. Click. You're back in the room.

According to the USA and Canada parts catalogs, the E4100 (which you say is the non-dipping version) was applied to "automatic" models, while the E4600 was applied to "manual" models. As far as I know, non-dipping mirrors never came in any North American market cars and there was no difference in mirrors based on the type of transmission the cars came with. I can't think of a logical reason why that would be the case. Therefore, I don't think we can rely too much on the parts catalog information.

Agreed. That "Automatic" trans only application from the USA & Canada parts list is slightly bizarre, and not to be trusted. However, we have no choice but to refer to these documents and place a certain amount of trust in them. What other choice do we have? I think we simply have to try to spot the anomalies like this one, mark them on our maps, and steer around them.

I would also disagree that the E8300 doesn't match up with a Aug 1971 inspection stamp, since the R-drive catalog page I posted a picture of earlier shows both the E4100 and E8300 listed.

Have you got anything earlier than a 1973 document that mentions the E8300 number? My point is that it seems to me to be a later part number than the Aug. '71 production stamp on the item you have. I have a hunch that it's at least late '72 onwards.

To my mind, that mis-match is consistent with my conviction that the E8300 mirror was a dipping type mirror anyway. If you look at the earliest R-Drive parts lists ( although my earliest R-Drive Export parts list is "Revised March 1973" ) you see both the E4100 and E8300 listed ( "Exc. Europe" and "Europe" respectively ). Since I know ( from the Japanese market parts lists ) that the E4100 is the basic non-dipping type, it follows - for me anyway - that the E8300 must be a dipping type. If it were not, then that particular R-Drive parts list would not list a dipping mirror....

Looking at the other export 'R-Drive' parts list I have ( this one "Revised March 1974" ) it lists only the E4601 for both the 2-seater and 2+2 models ( 2+2 given as "from Oct. '73" ). That seems to tie in with what happened in the Japanese market:

Earliest Japanese market parts list lists the E4100 for the 'S' model ( the basic S30-S model Fairlady Z, known internally at Nissan as the 'ZS' or 'Z-Std' ), and although it doesn't list it specifically in this parts list, this was also fitted to the stripped-out Z432-R model ( it was noted in later parts lists ). That non-dipping mirror ties in with the spartan ethos of those two models. The other mirror in the list is the E4600, which we know is the dipping type, and which was listed as standard eqpt. for the 'D' model ( 'Deluxe' model S30 Fairlady Z-L ) and 'P' model ( PS30 model Fairlady Z432, which shared the 'Deluxe' spec trim of the 'D'.

Second Japanese parts list quotes the E4601 ( a dipping mirror ) as replacing both the E4100 and E4600 for ALL Japanese market models from September 1972 onwards, and I believe this ties in with some new Japanese legislation that was brought in at that point. Safety glass for interior mirrors?

....I don't know why anyone would choose to have a non-dipping type mirror, unless it was a legal requirement. Yet, it sounds like the non-dipping mirrors came standard on the S30-S and the PS30-SB models. It seems it would have cost Nissan more to make and stock two versions of the mirror rather than just make the dipping type standard on all JDM cars.

The non-dipping mirror fitted with the spartan, stripped-down ethos of the 'S' and 'PZR' models. They just had less bells and whistles than their more expensive model range siblings. This was consistent with other models in the Nissan lineup ( Sunnies, Bluebirds, Skylines etc etc ) where the cheaper, less highly appointed variants also had non-dipping mirrors. As IKI were making these for Nissan anyway, it doesn't necessarily follow that it cost Nissan more to have both dipping and non-dipping mirrors for different variants of the S30 series.

So, I can imagine somebody choosing to pay some extra and 'upgrade' from a stock fitment non-dipping mirror on an ZS or PZR to a dipping type ( dipping function is useful ) but I find it hard to imagine anyone purposely downgrading from dipping to non-dipping.

Also, Esprist noted in another thread that Nismo offered an optional "racing mirror" with no dipping function http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showpost.php?p=333346&postcount=1. What would be the benefit of such a mirror? It appears to be about the same size as a standard mirror.

No, that's a completely different thing. They were 'Race Option' mirrors, offered for the GT-R and 432-R ( well before NISMO ) and are huge. Almost twice as wide as the standard mirrors. I have one on my KPGC10, and you can see the whole of the back window in it, as well as most of both rear pillars! I'll take a photo of it next to that E4100 I have. Bear with me....

Alan T.