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Captain Obvious

Air / Fuel Meter Recommendations

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2 hours ago, grannyknot said:

Rich women have to have something to spend their money on.

 They can sit in front of their Vanity mirror and ask "Who's the fairest of them all"? It's a wonder they never thought of driving a Furrari.

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13 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

What I don't know anything at all about is how to deal with the heating element.

If you are talking about the heating element on O2 sensors, that's there just to get them up to operating temperature (~600F http://www.autotap.com/techlibrary/understanding_oxygen_sensors.asp). After a few minutes, I don't think you don't need it. 

A good discussion of O2 placement can be found here

My original idea for including a Rraspberry Pi was to add a G-meter. Not because it adds any diagnostics, but it's cool. My son's 2020 Type N has a factory one in his dash.

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I wonder how much money has been spent because that heating element went bad causing a replacement installed? Everyone I've ever heard of going bad was because of that.


Not mine! (Yet!)

I know people who replaced their o2 sensors with cheap ones on their Audis and then came to Uncle Ali to get me to run diagnostics for them a few months later. (I have full VCDS for those who know what it is).

But once replaced with the Bosch ones that cost 3 times as much, they never needed to come back. Incidentally, the Bosch one is what came with my Innovate!

I’ve also seen YouTube videos of people reviving old ones by using a blow torch to heat them to glowing hot temps. Can’t be sure how long that would last but apparently it makes the carbon build up on the heating element let go.

As for your eBay seller, I’ve had a few bad experiences on eBay but most of the time they have been very good at stepping in and resolving!


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4 hours ago, Jeff Berk said:

If you are talking about the heating element on O2 sensors, that's there just to get them up to operating temperature (~600F http://www.autotap.com/techlibrary/understanding_oxygen_sensors.asp). After a few minutes, I don't think you don't need it. 

A good discussion of O2 placement can be found here

My original idea for including a Rraspberry Pi was to add a G-meter. Not because it adds any diagnostics, but it's cool. My son's 2020 Type N has a factory one in his dash.

One more useful tip:

 

https://wbo2.com/lsu/im/pos10to15.gif

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One more useful tip:

 

pos10to15.gif&key=6df5db3d948492647dcee6b0fd837d6aba9f1f9de89055b73dc473dd02e0aab5

 

You know, I strongly suspect that many a girl has at some point explained that diagram to some guy! ;)

 

On a serious note though, that’s a GREAT tip - i assume its to it keep the water droplets from staying inside and messing with things. But I don’t get the not totally vertical orientation. Any thoughts?

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On 11/6/2020 at 6:22 PM, Captain Obvious said:

 I was hoping to get away cheaper than that.

I wanted to have AFR readings at one time and was also thinking cheap.  I had pondered buying a voltmeter and painting new numbers/colors on the dial based on wideband sensor output tables, then connecting it to a wideband sensor. Red, yellow and green zones was my thought.  Accuracy not really necessary.

If you focus on data acquisition of voltage instead of already processed AFR readings, it might open up some possibilities. Collect, run it through a spreadsheet, and you have what you want.

Example stuff from the interweb:

http://techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wbntk.htm

http://techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wblambda.htm

https://www.dataq.com/

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9 hours ago, Jeff Berk said:

If you are talking about the heating element on O2 sensors, that's there just to get them up to operating temperature (~600F http://www.autotap.com/techlibrary/understanding_oxygen_sensors.asp). After a few minutes, I don't think you don't need it. 

I thought it was more complicated than that. I haven't really looked into it, but I guess I should dig around a little and get some learning.

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4 hours ago, AK260 said:

You know, I strongly suspect that many a girl has at some point explained that diagram to some guy!

On a serious note though, that’s a GREAT tip - i assume its to it keep the water droplets from staying inside and messing with things. But I don’t get the not totally vertical orientation. Any thoughts?

LOL!  LOL

So I saw a note (probably on Innovate's website) about sensor mounting. They said that if the sensor gets wet it can cool too quickly and crack some ceramic portion. For that reason, I think they recommended 3:00 or 9:00 with 6:00 being the worst not only from the standpoint of ripping the sensor off on a speedbump, but also for potential water damage.

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LOLLOL
So I saw a note (probably on Innovate's website) about sensor mounting. They said that if the sensor gets wet it can cool too quickly and crack some ceramic portion. For that reason, I think they recommended 3:00 or 9:00 with 6:00 being the worst not only from the standpoint of ripping the sensor off on a speedbump, but also for potential water damage.


Thank you sir, I’d forgotten that thing about rapid cooling. On that note I recall something about not leaving the ignition on for too long before starting a cold engine.

But I still don’t get the not at 12 o’clock bit. If in theory you have the space for mounting it straight up, then why does it need to be a minimum of 15 degrees off vertical!?

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8 hours ago, AK260 said:

If in theory you have the space for mounting it straight up, then why does it need to be a minimum of 15 degrees off vertical!?

Get yourself a glas.. rinse it with water..  hold it upside down.. now after 30 sec hold it on 15 degree.. what happens the last drops fall off.. I think that's best.. can't think of any other reason.

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Here's what Innovate says in the user's manual for the gauge:

"Using a clock as reference, mount the bung between the 9:00 o’clock and 3:00 o’clock position. Welding the bung in the lower section of the exhaust pipe can result in sensor damage caused by condensation making contact with the sensor’s internal heating element."

My interpretation of that is "anywhere along the top half of the tube is OK."  That said, I think I would rather have it a little off 12:00 for the surface tension reasons Dutch mentioned.

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Wait... You're saying I'm not already a geek?     LOL


An analogue geek in a digital world!
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Haha!! Guilty as charged!

So I'll have to install some data collection software somewhere to hook up to the gauge. It certainly won't be to my phone...

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On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2020 at 11:00 AM, Jeff Berk said:

If you are talking about the heating element on O2 sensors, that's there just to get them up to operating temperature (~600F http://www.autotap.com/techlibrary/understanding_oxygen_sensors.asp). After a few minutes, I don't think you don't need it. 

@Jeff Berk I did a little digging into the heating element and how it's used. My (admittedly limited) research indicates that you are correct if you're talking about the older O2 sensors which would run the heating element all the time, but the new ones are monitored and modulated by the engine computer.

In order to achieve A/F sensor accuracy, they want the sensor to stay at a constant temperature at all time, so they modulate the power sent to the heater to keep the temp constant. Older sensors didn't need that level of control, they just need to be really hot, but the newer wide band sensors need to stay at a constant temp.

Here's the best article I could find about the whole thing:

https://www.autoserviceprofessional.com/articles/1097-oxygen-sensor-heaters-how-do-you-know-if-that-heater-fault-code-is-real

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Captain 

Looks like the O2 sensor is more complicated than I thought. Sorry to send you on a goose chase (turkey chase?)

Jeff

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No, no, no... No apologies necessary! I ended up with the benefit of knowledge!

The scary part now is I'm thinking "I could program up a little microcontroller to do that easy!"     LOL 

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Which microcontroller were you planning to use? I got a few ESP8266 that were intended for a different project. They have built-in wifi modules, perhaps they can be used like a relay to forward the data to a computer.BC624304-4ACA-4B0D-8A63-D6DB64D2B828.jpeg

After seeing this thread earlier in the week I ordered an AEM wideband AFM, as I had the exhaust off the car. looks like I need to mess with my floats a bit. 😬

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After seeing this thread earlier in the week I ordered an AEM wideband AFM, as I had the exhaust off the car. looks like I need to mess with my floats a bit.



Good job. In my books, it is the ONLY way to properly home tune your car and half the price of a rolling road. IMHO even better than RR as you see what the afr is doing in the real world under real driving conditions!

I also installed mine into the glove box, but with long cables so that I could pull it out and stick it on the windscreen when I use it.
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27 minutes ago, AK260 said:

 

 


Good job. In my books, it is the ONLY way to properly home tune your car and half the price of a rolling road. IMHO even better than RR as you see what the afr is doing in the real world under real driving conditions!

I also installed mine into the glove box, but with long cables so that I could pull it out and stick it on the windscreen when I use it.

 

 

Howd you get the mount to stick while driving? Magnet? Surprisingly it was straight forward to weld the bung onto the exhaust, I really wanted to avoid the welds looking like complete 💩. After reading the instruction you don’t want to do what I did and install the o2 in a complete vertical position, it’s recommended to keep tilted to avoid it getting too hot (from the installation instructions that I read after installing). I’m not sure how problematic this is, I installed the o2 about an 2in after the two pipes meet. 

12F0C9D0-5DDB-4934-AAD8-D909201C83ED.jpeg

I got the ESP8266 broadcasting a wifi signal, next step is figuring out a way to have it output a data stream

 

Edited by heyitsrama

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