31K Miles Series I 240Z Up for Auction on BaT - Over $100k on First Day!

[Captain Obvious]

Yeah, a lot of individual parts "say" just 31000 miles, but to me, it looks like someone spent a whole lot of time trying to achieve that.

Like @inline6 above, I've got a whole host of "Yeah, but then why does this look like this?" situations all over the car. He hit some of them, but I've got others as well. Things like:

Dented frame rails, control arms, and floors.
Impossibly shiny clean yellow paint marks gratuitously applied on rusted hardware that has had the original plating stripped off.
Many other hardware pieces where the original plating has been stripped off or painted over with silver paint.
Adjustment witness marks on things that just should never have needed to be adjusted like the door latches.
Smeared screw heads on things that should have never needed to come off a 31K mile car like the hood prop arm.

I see a well kept Z wearing a well done, but many year old repaint. I see a beautiful Z that I would love to own, but I do not see a survivor.

[grannyknot]

19 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

Impossibly shiny clean yellow paint marks gratuitously applied on rusted hardware that has had the original plating stripped off.

Yeah, that yellow paint sure looks pretty fresh doesn't it.

[Captain Obvious]

Yes. Way too fresh. Like someone put them there a few years ago when they learned they should be there. Like they took off the appropriately aged hardwares, blasted them shiny, put them back on, and then slathered on the yellow stripe to "look like it just came off the factory line". Problem is that when you blast the plating off hardware like that it rusts. Quickly.

There are some spots on the car that look their age. And it is my belief that it if weren't for significant clean-up and repainting efforts, the rest of the car would look like that too.

So are any of these questions being raised over at BAT? I didn't see anything. Maybe I'm the outlier and everyone else thinks the car is jaw dropping original.

[Zed Head]

I just see an old low mileage 240Z that was in storage for a really long time.  A closer read of the BAT listing shows that it was essentially in "storage" from 1981 to 2017.  36 years.  It went to a museum in 2002.  They probably did some touchup, you'd think.  So, basically, everyone should imagine that it's 1981 and you're looking at a 1971 240Z.  A ten year old 240Z with 31,000 miles on the odometer.  Ten years to collect some dings and have various repair shops working on it for whatever reason.  

Seems like the FIVA award and the attention to describing the rusty bolt heads and the paint thickness are having the opposite effect.  They're overplaying the rarity.  Too much selling.

Funnily enough, I just watched some of the Back to the Future movies.  Imagine...it's 1981 and you have a chance to buy a low mileage 1971 240Z.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Zed Head
Can't add.

[HS30-H]

6 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

So are any of these questions being raised over at BAT? I didn't see anything. Maybe I'm the outlier and everyone else thinks the car is jaw dropping original.

It appears that many comments are vetted by admin and weeded out before publication, whilst certain 'known' characters get free reign and treat BaT like it is their own personal club. 

Some of the loudest voices on there clearly don't know their stuff. This 'MRM' character bumped up the bidding by 85k in one bid, then passed comment on it being a '200k car'. Is it only me that finds this kind of behaviour totally lacking in credibility? This is not the technique of a smart buyer, nor the action of an informed marque enthusiast.

Apparently this same guy owns the 432 that just won an award at ZCON 2020, so it figures that he doesn't actually know what he's looking at. Seems like the ZCON judges don't either. These are all symptoms of a bubble that is inflating too quickly.

[26th-Z]

One must be carefully polite on BaT so as not to violate the first rule of automotive admiration; "don't ever badmouth someone else's car".  Of course, we do this all the time on this site, sometimes mounting to a shouting match, but this site is different.  We are knowledge based and not bidding on cars.  Consider the BaT conversation held in the sales lot with a bunch of people hanging around to watch the sale of a car.  That picture isn't what I would consider happening on this site.  We discuss cars with no real anticipation of someone profiting from our comments.  I can't imaging posting a list like Inline6's on BaT even though I agree with most if not all of his items.  Thanks for making that list!  I see those service records, too, and want to comment about the amount of work performed on a 31,000 mile car.  The poor thing has a bent frame rail and a bent control arm!  31,000 miles?  On a Datsun?  Showing that much 'service' damage?

[DC871F]

5 hours ago, HS30-H said:

It appears that many comments are vetted by admin and weeded out before publication, whilst certain 'known' characters get free reign and treat BaT like it is their own personal club. 

Some of the loudest voices on there clearly don't know their stuff. This 'MRM' character bumped up the bidding by 85k in one bid, then passed comment on it being a '200k car'. Is it only me that finds this kind of behaviour totally lacking in credibility? This is not the technique of a smart buyer, nor the action of an informed marque enthusiast.

Apparently this same guy owns the 432 that just won an award at ZCON 2020, so it figures that he doesn't actually know what he's looking at. Seems like the ZCON judges don't either. These are all symptoms of a bubble that is inflating too quickly.

All normal in the 21st century. If you notice with popular or infamous topics in the news lately,  everyone is an "expert", the louder they are, the expertyness they are.

[Captain Obvious]

And here's something that has been bugging me that I just put my finger on... Those are not the original carbs on that car.

The carbs on there now are from 72  and are three screw round tops. Original unmolested, survivor, "time capsule", huh?

So when the listing says "The numbers-matching 2.4L L24 inline-six was factory rated at 150 horsepower at 5,600 rpm and 146 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm. During current ownership, the carburetors have been cleaned and adjusted"

So that may all be "true"... The block may be the original block, and the current carbs may have been cleaned and adjusted, but that doesn't mention the fact that the sometime in the past, the original carbs have been removed and replaced with a different set from a different year.

So with just 31K miles, I ask... "Why? And by whom?" I didn't look through all the receipts and records of work done. Is there mention of that anywhere?

[Terrapin Z]

I too have issues with a lot of thing on this car as being 31K miles and original. While it is in good shape I don't see it being a $100k + specimen.

Along with all the items mentioned above, was there talk of the Master cylinders? Clutch and Brake I missed?. You can still buy more correct looking Tokico's from Nissan. 

Aren't the seats on the wrong sides? Shouldn't the adjuster knobs be to the inside?

So many little things I am not going to list, best of luck to the buyer, I hope it suits their needs and budget.

[Zed Head]

Somebody at this place, Malamut Auto Museum, must know something.  "Wob" bought it from there, apparently.  Odd that it's in Thousand Oaks CA, but the car was titled in Nevada.  A way around CA titling problems, probably.  The "Museum" (basically just Mike Malamut's huge car collection), has a different 1970 240Z.  Maybe the replacement for the one on BAT.  Anybody know Mike Malamut?  Or Wob?

Doesn't really seem like a survivor, more like a reviver.  Brought back from the dead.  Probably in pretty crusty shape after the first 21 years of storage.

http://malamutautomuseumfoundation.org/the-collection/japanese/

http://malamutautomuseumfoundation.org/

https://www.facebook.com/Malamut-Auto-Museum-1122168147860406/

 

[motorman7]

17 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

  Anybody know Mike Malamut?  Or Wob?

I know Mike pretty well.  We see each other at a lot at the same shows.  Usually we are competing against each other in the Japanese category.   He does a lot to promote the Japanese car category at the higher end Auto shows which is a good thing. He typically manages the Japanese class for the San Marino motor show and is often down this way at the La Jolla car shows and at JCCS. He is pretty pleasant and honest and does a lot to support the Japanese cars.

I think I met Wob briefly at the San Marino show where I also saw this car.  The owner (Wob?) left his lot boy with the car and the lot boy knew very little about what original Z cars are supposed to look like, so there wasn't much to talk about.  Sounded like Wob had a lot of nicer cars such as Ferrari's and Porsche's per the lot boy.  Owner (Wob?) showed up at the end of the show, asked lot boy if they'd won an award and then told him to load up the car.  Car did not place FWIW.

[siteunseen]

What's this say? I've never seen a rubber stamp that cancels a title but hey, it's me. Is it "surrender to Nevada"?

[Zed Head]

It's licensed in Nevada as WAY240.  But there are no driving or engine running videos.  Weird.  And the guy with the top bid plans to just store it, apparently.

I think this car is like one of those rare stamps or coins, with defects or strange histories.  Only valuable because of its weirdness.  Like a side-show attraction at a circus.

Some of these guys seem to have marital problems also...

[siteunseen]

I googled the Pangborn guy, he died in 2010.

Frigidaire wives...

 

[Zed Head]

The Quail 2018.  Q?  Hmmm...  Rarified air.

https://www.peninsula.com/en/signature-events/events/motorsports/2018/event-overview

https://sportscardigest.com/quail-motorsports-gathering-2018-report-photos/3/?envira_id=282882#envira-gallery-wrap-282882

[Captain Obvious]

They hooked up the heater core and something under the dash leaked. They talked over with some of the prospective buyers and have decided that they don't want to pull the dash to preserve the originality.

But the carbs on the car are from a completely different year and nobody is making a fuss? All the chatter is holding this car up as a beacon of originality.  

I'm not a member over there, but I'm surprised nobody has asked if the original carbs are included with the sale. Hopefully somebody saved them in a box somewhere??

[Zed Head]

I think the 240Z's, at least this one, has/have moved from 240Z collectors over to the realm of old car collectors.  Collecting not because they like Z's but because they're old and "expensive".

Doesn't seem like Wob really knows Z's, he has comments about other old cars but misses the point of some of the things that a Z person would know.  The heater core bypass is bad for cooling, it's a straight shot from the back of the head to the pump inlet.  The coolant just cools picks up heat from the block then goes right back to the pump without seeing the radiator then does it again.  He could fix that without disturbing anything.

The hose clamps are the kind that everyone hates, boooo.  It's not even really a good restoration.  It's probably a good base for a restoration though.  And it's good entertainment for flaw-finding.

[HS30-H]

On 10/15/2020 at 9:24 AM, HS30-H said:

It appears that many comments are vetted by admin and weeded out before publication, whilst certain 'known' characters get free reign and treat BaT like it is their own personal club. 

Some of the loudest voices on there clearly don't know their stuff. This 'MRM' character bumped up the bidding by 85k in one bid, then passed comment on it being a '200k car'. Is it only me that finds this kind of behaviour totally lacking in credibility? This is not the technique of a smart buyer, nor the action of an informed marque enthusiast.

Apparently this same guy owns the 432 that just won an award at ZCON 2020, so it figures that he doesn't actually know what he's looking at. Seems like the ZCON judges don't either. These are all symptoms of a bubble that is inflating too quickly.

 

I went back to remind myself of what this character actually said. He bumped the bidding from 15k to 100k in one shot, then dropped this comment:

 

Despite Chrystal's words, I feel that people *should* question such antics. If this MRM character doesn't go on to bid "250k+++" then what is the true nature and purpose of his participation? On the face of it, this looks like a classic example of market pumping.

Of course these sorts of shananigans go on in all kinds of fields, most obviously in the art market. Public auctions are a strange circus at the best of times, but the Bring-A-Trailer format has that extra ingredient of allowing comments (well, not all comments...) and where early S30-series Zs are concerned there seems to be a relatively small cast of characters sitting in the front row: 

 

 

[HS30-H]

8 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

But the carbs on the car are from a completely different year and nobody is making a fuss? All the chatter is holding this car up as a beacon of originality.  

I'm not a member over there, but I'm surprised nobody has asked if the original carbs are included with the sale. Hopefully somebody saved them in a box somewhere??

I'll ask. Lets see if the question gets past admin there, and what the reaction is if it does.

[240260280]

The very bright yellow paint on the rear suspension/differential mount hardware stops discontinuously at the adjacent black structural members so they were re-painted. The bolts and washers also have misaligned paint so work was done.

The oil pressure sensor was also changed.

The hub caps look like the Chinese fakes.

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by 240260280

[26th-Z]

Your question is posted, PZR.  Looks like Lstepp4re is having a "non-constructive" moment.

Edited October 16, 2020 by 26th-Z

[Captain Obvious]

1 hour ago, 26th-Z said:

Looks like Lstepp4re is having a "non-constructive" moment.

It appears he's is challenging the claims of original paint, and to combat that challenge, the seller posted a video walk around underneath.

I tried to watch the video, but it came up "private" for me. For those who can see the video, does it bolster the original paint belief?

[Zed Head]

Some threads are unraveling in the story that's being woven.  Wob says he's known the car's history since new.  But it was in storage for 21 years.  Apparently it's still in the Malamut collection, he has to travel out there to get pictures.  Wob seems to be a salesman, an agent for the real "seller".  He wants to "squash" dissent quickly.  He's probably the one flagging comments as "non-constructive".  Doesn't seem right.  BAT seems to be turning in to a tool for the high end sales people.  Shame.

Wob says he posted a video but it's private.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Zed Head

[motorman7]

I would say NO to original paint. The texture/orange peel is wrong. ...unless Nissan changed there paint process for later series 1s.  

In contrast,  I could tell in just a few pics that the $300k car was original paint...it looks like mine.

 

[motorman7]

I do agree with the reflection comment, but the paint is just off....even the underside.  My 70 Z without dealer undercoating is completely safari gold on the bottom,  no black areas. Just looks wrong 

And the silver painted parts drive me up the wall.

In my opinion,  car was refreshed before storage,  then left to patina/rust.