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z32 fairlady

Coil Pack Conversion - More Info Needed

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    I am currently looking into doing a distributorless, coil on plug conversion on my L24 engine.  I'd to gain an understanding of what parts were used in the conversion.  Are there any fabrication needs or any other "gotchas" I may not be aware of? I would think most if not all L-series, 6-cyl engines would fare similarly with compatibility.

    There is no clear how-to online.  The goal is to end up with a setup with reliability and quality.  Part/model numbers are certainly appreciated.

    Here are some of the links I've come acorss in researching -

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    What are you planning on using to trigger the spark?

    You may want to create an account at hybridz.org and search there.

    @madkaw has been running them. He might be able to give you insight.

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    "coil pack" usually refers to wasted spark.  Coil on plug is COP.  Both require their own ignition or engine management system.  Hybridz.org hs a few examples.

    madkaw made his own trigger system.  He has studied the situation.  @madkaw

    https://forums.hybridz.org/forum/94-engine-components/

    https://forums.hybridz.org/forum/93-megasquirt/

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    A lot of people have used megajolt for a stand alone ignition controller

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    Well you’ll need a way to control the spark - ECU . Then you need a way to tell the ECU crank position . Then you can do what you want . The options are many .

     

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    I have a blake coil bracket, brand new and a hoke crank trigger kit brand new I need to sell.  I have both tooth counts for it.  Either 60-2 or 36-1.  It's for a stock 240z dampener.  So most likely the one on your motor.  You would then need an ecu and the ford coils for it.  Pm me if you are interested.  

     

    Haltech has a stand alone ecu for just the coils/ igition or edis6.  

    Edited by duffymahoney

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    I am also in the beginning stages of doing this research and was planning to do some sort of write up on it. I just reached out to Wheee! and have been digging through Duffy’s thread to get started.

    I think this thread is as good a place to compile notes as any. This is what I have gathered, plus contributions by @Zed Head@duffymahoney, @wheee!, and @madkaw (please suggest edits as appropriate):

    Benefits

    • Better Performance? - Yes, in the form of hotter spark, less chance of misfire, more efficient combustion, and better emissions 
    • Better power? - Maybe. Full control of timing in any load situation is a far and above the compromise of a dizzy - however it might be recurved.
    • Lower cost? - Not initially, but parts are easier to find that the original setup once a system is in place.
    • Tunable? - Yes. Programmable ignition curves allow you to optimize for power and efficiency.

    Required Components

    • Coils (6)
    • Spark Plugs (6)
    • Coil Bracket
    • Camshaft Triggering Device / Position Sensor / Angle Sensor
    • Crankshaft Triggering Device / Position Sensor / Angle Sensor
    • Ignition Control Unit / Module
    • Battery
    • Wiring Harness
    • Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor
    • Tachometer Signal Converter

    Considerations

    • Cost - Is the cost of the system worth the benefits for your car vs OEM parts or other options?
    • Availability - Can you find replacement components to get your build finished and keep it working?
    • Difficulty - Will you need to have help getting it installed, tuned, and keep it working?
    • Appearance - Which of each component is right for your build style?
    • Heat - How will heat be managed to ensure proper function and longevity?
    • Positioning - How will you route the wiring through firewall and what mounting points will work for each component?
    • Accessories - Will you be running AC, the headlight relay harness, non-original alternator, other hard-wired electronics, etc.?

    Glossary

    • Smart Coils (from AEM Performance Electronics)
      • “Smart” Inductive Coils are designed for use on applications that do not have an external igniter.
    • Wasted Spark (from Wikipedia)
      • In a wasted spark system, the spark plugs fire in pairs, with one plug in a cylinder on its compression stroke and the other plug in a cylinder on its exhaust stroke. The extra spark during the exhaust stroke has no effect and is thus "wasted". This design halves the number of components necessary in a typical ignition system, while the extra spark, against much reduced dielectric resistance, barely impacts the lifespan of modern ignition components. In a typical engine, it requires only about 2–3 kV to fire the cylinder on its exhaust stroke. The remaining coil energy is available to fire the spark plug in the cylinder on its compression stroke (typically about 8 to 12 kV).
      • “If you're running a wasted spark system, you don't need cam sensor.

        Two pistons will be approaching TDC at the same time. Of the pair, one of the rising pistons is approaching TDC on it's compression stroke, and the other one is approaching TDC on it's exhaust stroke. A cam sensor would allow you to differentiate between those two, but if you're running a wasted spark system, you don't care... Just spark both of them at the same time.

        If you had a cam sensor, you could spark just the cylinder on it's compression stroke alone without "wasting" a spark on the other cylinder.” - Captain Obvious


    COMPONENTS: COILS

    ACDelco D585

    Nissan R35

     

    COMPONENTS: COIL BRACKETS

    Blake Machine Co.



    List of Options for Crank and Cam Position Sensors @ Hybrids -https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/126710-list-of-options-for-crank-and-cam-position-sensors/

    COMPONENTS: CAMSHAFT ANGLE SENSOR

    Jeep 4.0 CAS in stock distributor location

     

    COMPONENTS: CRANKSHAFT ANGLE SENSOR

    1982-83 280ZXT distributor with DIYautotune wheel

    • XXX

    Austin Hoke Bolt-in-Kit

    BJH Dynamics / Robello Racing

    • XXX

    Damper-mounted universal or OEM trigger wheel

    • XXX

    Flywheel Hall Sensor

    • XXX

    Top End Performance Trigger Wheel fab Service

    • XXX

     


    COMPONENTS: ECU

    Crane:

    Electromotive:

    Haltech:

    MSD:
    Megajolt:

    Edited by Matthew Abate
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    8 hours ago, Matthew Abate said:

    Required Components

    •  
    • Camshaft Triggering Device / Position Sensor / Angle Sensor
    • Crankshaft Triggering Device / Position Sensor / Angle Sensor
    •  

    Glossary

    • Sequential Ignition (from Wikipedia)
      • …systems can be sequential, in which injection is timed to coincide with each cylinder's intake stroke; batched, in which fuel is injected to the cylinders in groups, without precise synchronization to any particular cylinder's intake stroke; or simultaneous, in which fuel is injected at the same time to all the cylinders.
    •  

    You're combining injection control with ignition control in your post.  That is full "engine management".  More than the topic.  Patcon was right, Megajolt is a basic ignition control system. 

    The other advantage is programmable ignition curves.  Optimizing for power and efficiency.

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    Thanks @Zed Head I’ll get those edits in.

    If everyone else could make recommendations on components or provide links to how-tos or instructions I would appreciate it.

    I’m starting to dig into Hybridz right now and plan to transpose what I find into the above post.

    Edited by Matthew Abate

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    I would argue the statement of probably not better power . Timing control is a big part of these motors . To have full control of timing in any load situation is a far and above the compromise of a dizzy - however it might be recurved . 
    I think it’s safe to say power improvements are about guaranteed . 
     

    Cam sensor is nice , but not necessary . I’ve run years without it . 

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    18 minutes ago, madkaw said:

    I would argue the statement of probably not better power . Timing control is a big part of these motors . To have full control of timing in any load situation is a far and above the compromise of a dizzy - however it might be recurved . 
    I think it’s safe to say power improvements are about guaranteed.

    Awesome! That’s what I like to hear.

    I don’t suppose you can put any numbers on it. Any chance you have a link to dyno charts for comparison?

    Regarding cam sensor, I had read somewhere (Duffy’s thread?) that the crank sensor doesn’t tell you which of the strokes you are on, so pairing the two gives you that plus accuracy. I’m paraphrasing big time here.

    Edited by Matthew Abate

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    There’s no specific numbers I can brag on , but there’s no contest , especially if you want to run a performance cam or performance engine .

    I run 45 degrees at cruise and can idle at 18 degrees . You can’t hardly get a dizzy to do that since the vacuum advance is linked to the total advance . 
     

    Cam sensor really helps for smoother idle and getting that last % of precision from EFI . 

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    The thing about the cam sensor... If you're running a wasted spark system, you don't need cam sensor.

    Two pistons will be approaching TDC at the same time. Of the pair, one of the rising pistons is approaching TDC on it's compression stroke, and the other one is approaching TDC on it's exhaust stroke. A cam sensor would allow you to differentiate between those two, but if you're running a wasted spark system, you don't care... Just spark both of them at the same time.

    If you had a cam sensor, you could spark just the cylinder on it's compression stroke alone without "wasting" a spark on the other cylinder.

    On edit - I don't know about the accuracy of the spark timing stuff. Maybe a cam sensor can get you a tiny bit more accurate with your spark timing, but I'm not sure.

    Edited by Captain Obvious
    I'm no timing expert

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    Thanks guys. CO, I’m adding that to the glossary.

    I think what was meant in the thread I referred to is that crank sensors give you accuracy (flywheel versions specifically) whereas the cam helps you understand which valve position for spark. “Accuracy”

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    There's a lot of information on this at HybridZ. I ran Megajolt on my previous 260Z, it's a relatively easy system to get running. The only real challenges are the trigger wheel and sensor, and those can be bought off the shelf to make it almost trivial.

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    Wasted spark is fine 99% of the time.  I went with full sequential, just because of how easy it was, 3 wires and a cam sensor.  I think it added 150$ to my install.  

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    For ignition purpose alone, "sequential" and wasted spark are the same, except that the spark jumps backward for three of the plugs with wasted spark.  For ignition spark is always sequential.  Sequential is a word used to describe injection, when the cylinders only get fuel on their compression stroke.  And sequential is really only effective at low RPM, and it's really mainly for emissions purposes.

    Just wanted to put that out there.  Injection and ignition are two separate events.  Even when people go to something like Megasquirt, they can do it in two parts, completely independently.   Either one can go first.  And ignition timing is always done from the crankshaft because timing is based on piston position.

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    52 minutes ago, cgsheen1 said:

    I love that the OP has never posted back to his thread and yet it's taken a life of it's own...

    Actually, the OP hasn't returned to this site since a couple of hours after the initial post. I hope he is finding what he's looking for.

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    1 hour ago, SteveJ said:

    Actually, the OP hasn't returned to this site since a couple of hours after the initial post. I hope he is finding what he's looking for.

    I certainly am. Thank you all for your contributions, especially @Matthew Abate. Having all the info in one place or in a concise location as you've presented it is what I was hoping for in a response.

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    4 minutes ago, z32 fairlady said:

    I certainly am. Thank you all for your contributions, especially @Matthew Abate. Having all the info in one place or in a concise location as you've presented it is what I was hoping for in a response.

    Oh, you just wanted us to do the legwork for you. LOL

    • Like 2
    • Haha 2

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    2 hours ago, Zed Head said:

    For ignition purpose alone, "sequential" and wasted spark are the same, except that the spark jumps backward for three of the plugs with wasted spark.  For ignition spark is always sequential.  Sequential is a word used to describe injection, when the cylinders only get fuel on their compression stroke.  And sequential is really only effective at low RPM, and it's really mainly for emissions purposes.

    Just wanted to put that out there.  Injection and ignition are two separate events.  Even when people go to something like Megasquirt, they can do it in two parts, completely independently.   Either one can go first.  And ignition timing is always done from the crankshaft because timing is based on piston position.

    I can control individual spark dwell with sequential.  Can you do that with wasted?  

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    1 hour ago, duffymahoney said:

    I can control individual spark dwell with sequential.  Can you do that with wasted?  

    Since two plugs are always fired in pairs, I don't think so. Out of curiosity,,, Why would you need different dwell on just cylinder #4 (for example) than all the others?

    3 hours ago, Zed Head said:

    the spark jumps backward for three of the plugs with wasted spark.

    So I haven't thoroughly researched the name "Wasted Spark", but I always thought that the "waste" was referring to the spark on the exhaust stroke that didn't do anything. Didn't cause any harm, but it was "wasted". If that's the true origin of the name, then what you said about the spark jumping backwards doesn't have to be the case.

    Granted, most of the times the wasted spark systems pair two plugs in series on the high voltage side, but I don't see any reason why you couldn't simply connect two COPs in parallel and fire them at the same time from the same low voltage source.

    You wouldn't have the (cost) benefit of cutting the number of coils in half, but you could still run COP with a wasted spark system. Some people may consider the removal of the high voltage wires a benefit worth the extra cost of three more coils.

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