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kats

Mr.Uemura wrote a book "making story of a Fairlady-Z"

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Hi, I want to see the English ver. book, I will check how big the differences is.

Chris, yes that  #3 is S20 with LHD. They tried every conceivable combination which they came up with.

Mr.Uemura is still regretting that they could not release 4000cc V8(Y40 for Nissan President) S30 . He was assuming positive requests from US customers, but there was no request.

If that happened, what kind of name was applied? Interesting.

Kats

 

Edited by kats

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12 hours ago, Gav240z said:

I'm also curious about this S20 powered LHD S30Z chassis.

Alan are you willing to share photos of this car? Does it still exist?

I don't really want to put the photos on this thread. I'll message you direct.

The car was destroyed. The photos explain how...

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Hi Guys - Sorry for the delay in getting back to this Thread. 

 
As far as I knew - Mr. Motomura sent the entire text and images of the book. Just last week however, he sent an additional 13 images that for some reason were not included in the original file set. He didn’t notice they were missing as we iterated several drafts of the English edition. They are nothing new to anyone - pictures of the S20 & L24 engine, pictures of the Front and Rear suspension, Datsun 240Z engine compartment and Battery Access lid. Rear end crash test on 280ZX 2+2.  I will be adding them to the next Revision - and I’ll put them on line for everyone to see or download and print. I don’t expect that they will significantly impact the page count, nor the actual information content.
 
 I added US Measurements to all the Metric Measures, only because I felt it made reading comprehension better for US readers. (they wouldn’t have to break their train of thought - stop reading and do the mental measurment conversions) So any conversion errors are on me. 
 
I have to believe that the difference in page count is do to the different format size.The English Edition was printed in 8.5 x 11 format in Black & White because that was the least expensive and still conveyed the technical information.  Mr Umera / Mr. Motomura wanted to make it available & affordable to everyone interested.  
 
Alan:  The Title evolved from exchanges between Mr. Motomura and myself. Publishers told me that one of the key elements to book sales - was Title Selection. They view it as the most important meta-data - that drives on-line search engines. So “Fairlady Z Development Record” for the Japanese market -  became "DATSUN 240Z Engineering Development” for the US and English Speaking markets.  Yes entirely market driven to reach the most English speaking people,  as that was the goal of publishing it in English.
 
Secondly - - As several books about the Z car had previously been published in English  - specifying  "Engineering Development" was intended to more clearly indicate that the book was about the “Engineering” aspects as opposed to the “Styling”, “Modeling" and “Marketing” aspects - that were already covered in most other English Language Z Books. The Cover design was for the same reason.
 
Thanks everyone for buying and help in promoting the book. As Chris said, I think you will find a lot of answers to many questions about what, how and why many of the Design and Production Engineering alternatives and decisions were arrived at.
 
 
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Received my copy a couple of days ago but haven't had the time to read through it yet... at first glance it looks very informative and an interesting read! Very cool to notice that the test team drove through Edmonton Alberta during winter trials! I would have been 3.... LOL

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On 2014-07-05 at 5:01 AM, kats said:

NOVEMBER 1967 #11 G8B RHD 230hp Weber rough road Durability test

 

 

So.... after seeing and hearing and smelling the 1965 R380-I with triple DCOE 42 & 200HP (actually 45 in Austin).  I am guessing the last test case #11 above had the R380A-II engine with triple DCOE-45 engine to give the  listed 230HP?  

The 160HP base S20 was not produced until 1968 so it would have made sense to try the end-of-line R380A-II engines for F U N ! 

Kats what is your guess?  The "G8B" label looks a lot like "GR8" typo. Do you think they tested the Prince engines in the Z in 1967?

 

p59-02.jpg

 

Or A/B680X Engine and Transmission?

 

wWhaP0HTqMV6AAAAABJRU5ErkJgggA=

 

 

 

Edited by 240260280
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5 hours ago, 240260280 said:

So.... after seeing and hearing and smelling the 1965 R380-I with triple DCOE 42 & 200HP (actually 45 in Austin).  I am guessing the last test case #11 above had the R380A-II engine with triple DCOE-45 engine to give the  listed 230HP?  

The 160HP base S20 was not produced until 1968 so it would have made sense to try the end-of-line R380A-II engines for F U N ! 

Kats what is your guess?  The "G8B" label looks a lot like "GR8" typo. Do you think they tested the Prince engines in the Z in 1967?

"G8B" was the factory designation for what then became the 'S20'. It wasn't the same engine as the GR8, despite the bloodline. The 'G8B' was somewhat simplified and mass-productionised in comparison to the pure race 'GR8', and the cylinder head casting in particular (along with the cam cover, inlet manifold, distributor/ignition system, cooling system/water pump and cam drive system) was completely different.

I have factory race department dyno testing sheets from 1970 where they are still identifying the 'S20' as the 'G8B', probably through force of habit. 

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22 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

Thanks Alan,

Any ideas on the 230HP detail in item #11.  It seems only the 380A-II engine was pushing this amount in 1967.  Was this some special cam'd or race S20 engine?

I wouldn't place too much store on the 'HP' element in the quote. Uemura san's original book (as opposed to the 'translation' version) uses the term '馬力' ('Bariki') which is an equivalent term for 'Horsepower', whilst the Japanese testing standard was actually 'PS' (the German standard of Pferdestarke) and the numbers are all very much rounded up.

The normally-quoted figures for the different iterations of GR8 race engines on the other hand were usually somewhat rounded down, in order to keep the competition guessing. 

Quite a lot in Uemura san's original (Japanese) book seems to have been edited out of the English language 'translation', or 'tuned' to suit the 'Datsun 240Z' retitling. In any case, I would not take quoted engine power figures in either version at face value and without bearing in mind the wider stories behind them.


 
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Hi Chris, I did not think about it, but yeah, I imagine they wanted to express the word " Maru " ( means a circle ). Just my guess.

Blue, I am not an expert about this. Alan is the best. And here is an interesting material which we would love to see, a S20 prototype.

Prince engineers began to develop S20 in late 1967, this S20 prototype has many things different from standard production version.

Mr. Watanabe who owned this S20 prototype (currently sold to a fanatic) said design of valves and camshafts , combustion chamber etc they are far better than standard S20. And this prototype is even compact to compare with the standard S20. 

And you see the mount, this prototype has a set of Z432 mount. Mr. Watanabe said this engine could be installed in a Z432 and tested.  The mounts came with this engine from the beginning.

I do not know this is the 230PS engine which was tested in a S30.

And a casting code on the block, you see

"70929004" This could be ment "1967 October 9th " or "1967 September 29th" 

What do you think of it ?

I visited Mr.Watanabe's shop last winter, his shop is like a dream land . Lots of S20 and FS5C71A, R192 , and GTRs.

People like to throw away FS5C71A and R192 because of the weakness and hard to maintain due to difficulties of supporting parts. We have FS5C71B and R180 and R200 , they performe better and easier to maintain.

However Mr. Watanabe like old ones. I will ask next time, why ? Maybe they are lighter than later ones? He is still developing a racing GTR for his own, using FS5C71A . His skills and know how are continuously given into customer's car. Wonderful man.

Kats

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Hi ,here is a quiz 

What made S30 prototype upgrade to a six- cylinder engine from a four- cylinder engine?

 

#1. Styling designers wanted a bigger engine 

 

#2. Mr. K said it has got to be a six -cylinder engine for America “ when he saw the prototype 

 

#3. Executives in Japan thought it wasnt a good thing a sedan (Skyline has the most powerful engine ( S20 ) in their products . We have Fairlady ,a sports car deserves a powerful engine . Let’s put S20 in it   

 

If someone who read the Mr . Uemuras book correctly,and the book is interpreted correctly ,it is easy to find the answer.

 

I would like to have the English version to see if the book is telling what Mr. Uemura originally wrote .

 

Kats

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8 hours ago, siteunseen said:

I say #2.

I don't want to spoil the fun too early, but the English language version of Uemura san's book doesn't include any such anecdote and Katayama's 'influence' on any aspect of development is put firmly back in its box.

I'm temped to say "none of the above" in answer to Kats' question. One of the tricky aspects to Uemura san's book is that it pops back and forth between specifications and development points for planning and prototyping and it all starts to get a bit jumbled up. S20 (G8B) engine is specified after initial decision to use the L20 six cylinder engine ('L20A' updated variant didn't exist at that time...) so it cannot really be #3. Styling designers were styling designers, so they might well have wanted more power but it wasn't in their remit to specify it, so it cannot be #1.     

Uemura san says that L16 (4-cyl) and L20 (6-cyl) were the two initial engine choices - simultaneously - and the L16 was dropped because production was planned to take place alongside the Roadsters at the Hiratsuka plant. So the answer could be that both four and six cylinder engines were part of the plan from the beginning (true 'beginning' being a sightly nebulous point...) and that there was no "four to six" engine metamorphosis. It was four AND six, then just six. Three types of six...   

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Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your joining. 

I realized I had to ask in a different way after seeing everyone’s reply . Like Alan said , seemed there is no correct answer in that choice . I had to specify “when” precisely and use proper words to explain what I was asking about .

I always feel there were some key facts of “ how S30 was made “ and those facts were in progress in different people , different section , and they were existing in  parallel before they were finally all united . 

What I was trying to do is ,I wanted everyone to know about the story behind S30 .  I thought it is interesting in the part about Nissan executives .

( actually it was not his word , Mr. Uemura quoted from Mr. Hara ‘s book ) 

I have learned Mr. Hara was very important person who dedicated to making S30 in the early stage . And how do you say , he was a car guy . 

Mr.  Hara also wrote a book , “ Datto San Kaihatsu no Omoide  “ ( memories of development of DATSUN cars ) .

So , Mr. Uemura wrote like this , 

( I will be back later )

Kats

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16 minutes ago, kats said:

I always feel there were some key facts of “ how S30 was made “ and those facts were in progress in different people , different section , and they were existing in  parallel before they were finally all united . 

 

I have learned Mr. Hara was very important person who dedicated to making S30 in the early stage . And how do you say , he was a car guy .

I think one of the problems with the narrative for the creation of what became the S30-series Z - pretty much right from the beginning - was that the story was being told as though it was a single, linear, progression which somehow started in the body styling department. In fact there were several parallel lines of progression which merged later - each of them influencing the other - but without the "Go/No Go" from the product planners and engineers the work of the body styling department would go nowhere.

Largely unsung is the work of Hajime SUITSU and Hidemi KANBARA, and of course Hitoshi UEMURA and the other staff of Nissan's Vehicle Design Section No.3, but Teiichi HARA could easily be cited as "The Father Of The Z" and as the man who really flicked the switch to "Go". But we should not be looking for a single figure as 'creator' because this project was the work of many hands.

People get upset when I protest at the overstated influence of Yutaka KATAYAMA in the story. It really, really ruffles feathers and even the mildest examination of key facts is taken as some kind of blasphemy. Katayama was a great man, a very very influential figure in NMC USA's story and in the Japanese auto industry as a whole, but the truth is that he had a supporting actor's role in the 'Maru Z' play and his walk-on part was in the third act.

Uemura san gives due credit to many of his colleagues, and his quoted section from Teiichi Hara's book is given a prominence intended - I believe - to tell us where he believes that "Go" decision really came from...           

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I am certain that I read somewhere where they took a 4 cyl prototype out on the American interstates (speed limit 70-80 at the time?).  Mr. K decided no way.  It had to be a 6 to run on American interstates.

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You mean the SP311?  No, the S30 was meant to replace the SP311.

Alan, what you describe is termed; "the perfect storm".

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6 hours ago, 87mj said:

I am certain that I read somewhere where they took a 4 cyl prototype out on the American interstates (speed limit 70-80 at the time?).  Mr. K decided no way.  It had to be a 6 to run on American interstates.

This is a perfect example of what I'm tempted to call Katayama Lore.

The origin of the anecdote was Mr Koichi IWATA of Nissan Japan's Export Department, who accompanied the display of two cars (210-series Bluebirds) and a small pickup truck at the 1958 Los Angeles Imported Car Show. Mr IWATA reported that he drove at least one of the 210s around the Los Angeles area, and that it had struggled to keep up with traffic on the freeways. His conclusion was that it was almost dangerously underpowered for freeway on-ramps and inclines in comparison with larger-engined domestics. Of course, he reported this to his superiors in Japan.

Mr KATAYAMA appears to have, and I'm being polite here..., inherited the anecdote as his own. Mr KATAYAMA arrived in the USA in 1960...  

No 4 cyl 'prototype' of the S30-series Z was sent to the USA.

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On 9/2/2019 at 8:07 AM, kats said:

Hi ,here is a quiz 

What made S30 prototype upgrade to a six- cylinder engine from a four- cylinder engine?

#1. Styling designers wanted a bigger engine 

#2. Mr. K said “it has got to be a six -cylinder engine for America “ when he saw the prototype 

#3. Executives in Japan thought it wasn’t a good thing a sedan (Skyline ) has the most powerful engine ( S20 ) in their products . “We have Fairlady ,a sports car deserves a powerful engine . Let’s put S20 in it  “ If someone who read the Mr . Uemura’s book correctly,and the book is interpreted correctly ,it is easy to find the answer.

I would like to have the English version to see if the book is telling what Mr. Uemura originally wrote .

Kats

Hi Kats:

I think #2 and #3 are correct. No question that Executives in Japan wanted the S20 for the Sports Car in Japan as Mr. Uemura reports.  Mr. Matsuo however tells us that as well in his Z Car Story, only Mr Matsuo reports that Mr. K wanted the L24 for America - so Mr. Matsuo ask what 2.0 liter engine would be used for Japan, and was told to use the S20.

 
So before the Z left the styling studio - it was designed to hold both 6cylinder engines. Then is was up to the Vehicle Development Dept. to figure out how and get it done.

Mr. Matsuo writes:
 = = Quote = =
"A Prototype Based On 'Plan A' 
From 1967, work began in earnest producing full-sized clays based on the Plan A proposal. One of the key Z styling features evolved during this period, namely the "sugar scoop" headlights. The SAE regulations stated they should be 60cm from the ground, but plastic covers were not allowed in America at the time. However, we offered the latter item as an option in Japan. 

The final clay we produced was very close to the ultimate shape of the Z. Although the body was still a touch narrow, the roofline a little too high, the bonnet much too low to accept the six-cylinder L24 engine, and there remained a lot of detailing to do around the windows and tail-end, I was basically happy with the result

By coincidence, at the time of its completion, Mr Katayama was back in Japan to see the 5I0 before It was launched. During his visit, he asked to see the next generation sports car, so we lined up the various clays (including the early ones depicting convertibles), and his eyes went ~- straight to the last one we had built. He said this was just what he needed in America. 

With Mr Katayama's support, the project finally started to progress and the engineering department became involved. Eventually, by the early Autumn of 1967, we had produced a glassfiber prototype. It was allocated the 'Z' designation (an appellation that would stay with the car throughout its production life). However, when the technical staff arrived to discuss the project, we found a number of problems. 

Mr Katayama had requested the 2.4 liter L24 power-plant, while the Japanese market had exorbitant taxes on vehicles over 2,000cc. Nissan had just taken over the Prince concern, and we were told to use their two-liter S20 twin-cam unit (this eventually became the famous Z432 model, incidentally). These powerful engines would require a stronger transmission. and the automatic version of the L24-equipped model required a much wider transmission tunnel:  this in turn led to a reduction in interior space, so the only solution left open to us was to increase the width of the body. At the same time, the bonnet height had to be altered to accommodate the engines, and the roofline was adjusted to suit.  = = end quote = = 
 
 
Mr Uemura tells us that indeed the Z Car was styled first - then the engineering was done - the opposite of the normal vehicle development process. 
 
So both the L24 and the S20 for Japan were Executive Management decisions. Mr. K was part of Nissan’s Executive Management team - indeed he was President of Nissan Motor Co. in USA. 


The English language version is easy to get - just order it on-line.
http://www.lulu.com/shop/hitoshi-uemura/datsun-240z-engineering-development/paperback/product-22879948.html
 
FWIW,
Carl B.
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On 9/3/2019 at 5:14 AM, kats said:

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your joining. 

....snipped..cjg

I have learned Mr. Hara was very important person who dedicated to making S30 in the early stage . And how do you say , he was a car guy . 

Mr.  Hara also wrote a book , “ Datto San Kaihatsu no Omoide  “ ( memories of development of DATSUN cars ) .

So , Mr. Uemura wrote like this , 

( I will be back later )

Kats

Hi Kats:

Mr. Hara was also part of the team that brought the first Datsun’s to America in 1958, to see if Datsun’s could be sold here. It was a four member team.
Nobe Wakatsuki (Marubeni Trading Co.)
and 3 Nissan Engineers:
Teiichi Hara (Senior Member of the group)
Kuniyuki Tanabe (a disciple of Gorham)
Shin Maki
 
If you haven’t read it - David Halberstam’s “THE RECKONING” is a great book about Nissan/Ford. One Chapter “The Victory” (racing with a VW)  is devoted to the team that brought Datsun to the USA in 1958.  Mr. Hara is one of the people that advised Mr. K to take the assignment in America, to do a market survey in 1960.
 
When ask in 1996 who designed the Z Car - Mr. K responded as shown here:
 
FWIW,
Carl B.
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10 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

... only Mr Matsuo reports that Mr. K wanted the L24 for America - so Mr. Matsuo ask what 2.0 liter engine would be used for Japan, and was told to use the S20.

So before the Z left the styling studio - it was designed to hold both 6cylinder engines.

...the bonnet much too low to accept the six-cylinder L24 engine...

Mr Katayama had requested the 2.4 liter L24 power-plant...
 
So both the L24 and the S20 for Japan were Executive Management decisions. Mr. K was part of Nissan’s Executive Management team - indeed he was President of Nissan Motor Co. in USA.

(my snipping and my bold highlighting)

This is just more cart before horse style retrospective storytelling. How would it have been possible for the 'L24' to be specified at a time when it did not even exist? Katayama was not an engineer and would not have been calling for a specific bore and stroke combination of the L6. He can only have been calling for more capacity and/or more power for his market.

We've had this discussion before, Carl. You used to cite the L24 and S20 as being 'the' engines for the S30-series Z at a point in the development process when only the (old, pre-'A') L20 six and S20 existed. You have often painted the L20 six (L20A in final production) engine as some kind of 'afterthought' for the Japanese market, but the timeline - and confirmed facts from the likes of Hitoshi Uemura - shows that this was not the case. When Matsuo describes the changes to the body styling/shape/size due to the decision to go with the six cylinder engines, he is talking about the L20 and the S20, not the L24 and S20.        

    

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8 hours ago, Carl Beck said:
When ask in 1996 who designed the Z Car - Mr. K responded as shown here:
 

Are you citing this as evidence of fact?

I'd say it makes it even clearer that we are talking about the work of many hands, most of them not even getting a name-check. Hitoshi Uemura, for example.

Personal anecdote: I stood in front of Yutaka Katayama in Japan and listened while he said "I designed it". But he was already well into his nineties and I didn't take it literally. He was standing next to Yoshihiko Matsuo, who didn't bat an eyelid.

If we are going to research and curate the history of these cars we have to weight up all evidence and come to a studied and balanced view. Relying on one source - as though it is the font of all truth and wisdom - is just not enough.   

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On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 11:43 AM, HS30-H said:

This is a perfect example of what I'm tempted to call Katayama Lore.

The origin of the anecdote was Mr Koichi IWATA of Nissan Japan's Export Department, who accompanied the display of two cars (210-series Bluebirds) and a small pickup truck at the 1958 Los Angeles Imported Car Show. Mr IWATA reported that he drove at least one of the 210s around the Los Angeles area, and that it had struggled to keep up with traffic on the freeways. His conclusion was that it was almost dangerously underpowered for freeway on-ramps and inclines in comparison with larger-engined domestics. Of course, he reported this to his superiors in Japan.

Mr KATAYAMA appears to have, and I'm being polite here..., inherited the anecdote as his own. Mr KATAYAMA arrived in the USA in 1960...  

No 4 cyl 'prototype' of the S30-series Z was sent to the USA.

I think I was misquoted.  It seems to happen to me a lot.  My understanding was there was a 4 cyl prototype car.  Not an S30 with a 4 cyl engine.  I don't remember ever reading that such a car existed.

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