Poor man's Porche

[esmit208]

KATS

I was in seventh grade when the 240Z hit the showrooms of north America as was just about everyone else who was not old enough to buy one at the time. I have often heard the phrase,"POOR MAN'S SPORTSCAR" but rarely if ever,"POOR MAN'S PORSCHE". A teacher in my neighborhood bought the very firsy one that I saw on the streets. From the moment I saw it I knew I had to have one even though driving was still a few years away for me. In my view the Datsun developed it's following due mostly to the results it was able to realize on the track at various SCCA races over the years. The performance parts were not available right away but had to be developed over the years by engineers and racing them. In 1970 not many mechanics knew how to really extract the maximum performance out of them. When more and more people gained more knowledge about them is about when the comparisons began to be made. In America in the 70's it was all about the down draft not the side draft carburetor. It was about about V8's and not straight 6's. Many of the exterior styling cues may be similar to Jaguars of the period. I have driven these cars almost exclusively since 1983. At my height 6'2" (not sure what the metric conversion is at the moment) I always felt right at home in them. The power is adequate, the handling superb, and above all the reliability is unquestioned. The manual gearbox always felt much smoother and less clunky than any machine from the "BLACK FOREST" that I have ever driven. My Mom owned a 1970 VW Beetle for many years so I know the difference. To close the "POOR MAN'S" reference was always meant to be a detractor and not a compliment. So don't get caught up with past references. The simplicity of the 240Z is indeed it's beauty.

[26th-Z]

Please go back and read my post #44 guys. The Datsun 240Z did not race in the same SCCA class as the Porsche 356 - ever. The Datsun 240Z did not race in the same SCCA class as the Porsche type 911 - six cylinder. The American Road Race of Champions was / is a race of SCCA National Divisional champions, not regional. There is a big difference.

[HS30-H]

The Datsun 240Z did not race in the same SCCA class as the Porsche type 911 - six cylinder.

Thanks Chris. That answers my rhetorical question nicely I think.

[Carl Beck]

The Datsun 240Z did not race in the same SCCA class as the Porsche type 911 - six cylinder.

So Alan Johnson wasn't really driving a 911 in C-Production in 68? Nor Milt Mitner in 69 ?

See 1970 ARRC Entry List below - 911's were entered, but didn't make the cut.

See 1975 Champion Spark Plug Road Race of Champions C-Production results.

It looks like 911's were both entered and ran against 240Z's in the same SCCA C-Production class..

FWIW,

Carl B.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Carl Beck

[HS30-H]

So Alan Johnson wasn't really driving a 911 in C-Production in 68? Nor Milt Mitner in 69 ?

Carl,

Your talents are wasted. You should have been working with the Mad Men in advertising......

If you know of any head-to-head Porsche 911 vs Datsun 240Z battles in the SCCA C-Production class, please tell us the details ( and the results ).

And Yuletide Greetings to all. I'm off for a big glass of mulled wine and a couple of mince pies

Cheers!

Alan T.

[Carl Beck]

Carl,

If you know of any head-to-head Porsche 911 vs Datsun 240Z battles in the SCCA C-Production class, please tell us the details ( and the results ).

Hi Alan:

See - edits above...

Actually I am still trying to find answers to some of your earlier questions related to the actual engine sizes that were allowed for the Porsches in C-Production.

It seems that cars listed as 911, 911T and 911S - were all allowed the same equipment in racing form.. Still don't know if the Porsche's were allowed the 2.4L after it came out late 72...

Have a Marry Christmas..

Carl

[soundmasterg]

From the PCA, the phrase was first turned in the late 60s in reference to the 912. Then later applied to the 914, 924, 944, 968 and Boxster. Basically, if you couldn't afford a 911 you were labelled "poor."

BTW, what was ill-fated about the 944? Beautiful lines, good power, exceptional handling, 50/50 balance and solid 8-year production run that converted to the 968 in 1992, ran until 1995 when the Boxster was introduced in 1996. NASA has a vibrant spec944 racing series with a lot of serious racers involved. Maybe you just meant the 924 was ill-fated?

Additionally, the Ferrari 246 Dino was also referred to as a "Poor Man's" Ferrari. After all, it only had 4 cylinders and was (gasp) mid-engined! Of course, nowadays not many poor men can afford a 246....so they buy the next iteration of the PMF--the 308. It's not 12-cylinders, so it's not a Ferrari, right?:sick:.

The irony of the "Poor Man's Porsche" be it the 912 or the 914, is that good examples are nearly (or greater than) the value of some 911s. Additionally, the 246 Dino regularly outprices Testarossas and the occasional 512BBi!

The Dino Ferraris actually used a V6 from Fiat, not a 4 cylinder.

Greg

[sblake01]

The Dino Ferraris actually used a V6 from Fiat, not a 4 cylinder.

Greg

Well the 512BBi and Testarossa didn't use a 4 cyl either but I'm fairly certain that wasn't xray's point....... Edited December 25, 2010 by sblake01

[psdenno]

Hoping to shed some Christmas light on the subject.....according to the book I found under the tree this morning, "How To Make A Small Fortune Maintaining Your Porsche", Chapter One is titled, "Start With a Large Fortune and a Used Porsche".

As the long time owner of a six cylinder 1970 Porsche and a 1971 Datsun Z, I can assure you that the Z is less demanding on the bank account. While there was a significant cost variance between the two when new, it becomes a moot point 40 years later when both have proven themselves to be enjoyable, spirited, modes of transportation.

Dennis

[Carl Beck]

Hi Everyone:

I know a few of the guys that are listed in the 75 Champion Spark Plug - Road Race of Champions I posted at #88 above, and located a couple of the guys that were driving the 911's - So I thought I'd drop them a line....

Dennis Aase responded today - he started racing his Porsche in SCCA B-Production, in 1969 running a mechanically fuel injected 911S. He raced that car to and including the Run-Off's at Atlanta in 73 as a C-Production 2.4 Liter. Dennis said that Porsche increased the displacement to 2.7 liter in 74, but because Porsche Motorsports Director Joseph Hoppin refused to inform the SCCA of the displacement increase, {because Hoppin was having a dispute with the SCCA over the 917 in Cam-Am} Porsche was forced to use the 2.4 liter until 75 or 76.

In an earlier discussion, about a year ago - we learned that some C-Production Z's {regardless of how they were listed ie as a 240Z or 280Z } - did keep running the L24's in C-Production, because if they ran the L28 they had to carry additional weight.

Don Kearney finished 4th that year and he is here in Clearwater. He is listed as running a Datsun 280Z - but I know his car was always a 240Z body - I'll call him Monday to see if he was running the L24 or L28 that year, and see if he can shed any additional light on the subject.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[xs10shl]

This could be very interesting to me ( and others too I hope! ). Are you talking about your 432, and what model 911 do you own? More please!

Cheers,

Alan T.

Alan, I think it would be entirely appropriate for me to get a friend to write an article matching the cars go head-to-head. Both cars need a little attention, after which I'll start making a few phone calls.

The Porsche is a stock 73 911E coupe. They are pretty squirrely cars, with vague shift patterns - but they have good performance, and the build quality is superb, IMHO.

My sense is whomever coined the phrase "Poor Man's Porsche" was really just talking hyperbole about the badges, as opposed comparing to the cars themselves. Granted, there isn't much that compares to the 911- it is a truly odd-ball design that has somehow managed to endure. IMHO the modern cars owe an enormous debt to steamroller tire technology, without which they would suffer more than other cars.

Edited December 27, 2010 by xs10shl

[gnosez]

Results from races in '77 & '78 w/Zs running in GTU set-up:

http://www.wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/imsa/imsagt1977.html (note the Buick Skylark!!)

http://www.wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/imsa/imsagt1978.html