Question of ethics

[onuthin]

I have been pondering whether it is ethical or not to warn others in the club if I was to offer unsoliceted information regarding z cars listed on ebay that I have personaly looked at and know for a fact they are not even close to being what they are described as. I have been asked to look at a few in my area and told the member what I thought the car was worth and to deccribe what I saw.The few times I did this the cars were in bad shape and the member did not bid on the cars.I feel I did a service to these members.I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I do have a lot of knowledge of z cars and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.I would never mislead anyone intentionaly so I could purchace a car myself.I guess the question is should I inform the club if I see red flags all over a car for bid without being asked?

[JimmyZ]

I think it all depends on the circumstance. If it is a grandmother or some unknowlegable person selling the Z and they say "no rust" then maybe it's just ignorance. If someone makes very specific claims on areas of the car which could cost a lot of money then they should be held accountable if they are misleading. (Floor pans perfect, frame rails, zero rust, etc)

Regardless I think the seller if confronted should change his ad or accept being exposed. This is fair if done in a clinical non-slanderous fashion and would be doing a service to others. It would be even better if you were to back up such claims with pictures.

The only grey area is one's subjectivity and perceived value. They aren't making 240 -***Z's anymore. Who's to say what price should be asked. The real issue is honesty in the sale.

Jim

[BD240Z]

If I were thinking of buying a car sight-unseen that was located in another state, I would really appreciate someone taking a look at it and providing me with feedback. Especially someone who's familiar with that make/model of car. I'd be interested in facts regarding its condition rather than an opinion. With facts, I'd be able to better evaluate what work the car would need.

Put another way; If I were about to make a mistake, would I want someone to point it out? Unsolicited or not, the answer is yes!

Bruce

[JimmyZ]

I agree completely Bruce. The main thing is that the seller be given a chance to correct any misinformation. If they don't correct things then they get shamed. Nobody has a problem with someone who's not being a tattle tale but rather exposing a seedy seller. Pictures would be the best way to subdue any backlash.

I think Onuthin's real dillema is the possibility of having his reputation tarnished because of his report on some dirtbag seller. He wants to be a welcome member of the community and doesn't want us to think any less of him. Anyone that can't appreciate such a service if done with diplomacy doesn't deserve a second thought.

[jackwarnock]

I am interested to know where good quality 240Z's are sold. If I wanted to buy good quality, I would want to have a thorough inspection etc. Of course that means being able to do just that, and distance can be a big problem.

Alternatively, finding the right buyer who is prepared to pay really good money for a really good car is a challenge. Where would you learned people go??

Are the Japanese interested in quality JDM 240Z's can some one tell me? Of course I believe I have a good example of a good quality original car with a most interesting record since purchase.

Interesting thoughts anyway.

Regards, Jack

[Ricklandia]

Personally, I think you are doing everyone a great service to speak up when you see a car being misrepresented on eBay, or any other site for that matter. I think it's one of the attractions for new members here - finding a reliable and trustworthy source of information. I have a serious problem with people who intentionally misrepresent themselves and their autos on eBay, they wouldn't last 2 sec. in the serious car collector world. And believe it or not, we are slowly beginning to approach just that, serious collector car status. Yeah, there are always going to be low dollar Z's to be found, but even they are getting rarer, especially in certain areas.

[Pir0San]

I agree with everyone above, you are doing a great service. Look at the transaction that one of our members here (Mull) did when buying a car from ebay. From what I gathered from his videos (and Mull, if I'm wrong, please correct me ) he bought the car sight unseen, and we've all seen the door hinge frame rail fix.

I'd want you to chime in if I bought a car that I had the inability to see for myself, and it was in reality a total rustbucket.

[lonetreesteve]

Yes, I am in agreement with everyone else. In fact, I took a look at low VIN 1970 listed on Craig's List a few months back that was here in the Denver area. All I did was give a good description of the car and describe its good & bad points and it helped a couple of members to make a decision on whether to pursue the car (or not, in this case). That is what's great about this club -to provide helpful information to each other.

[DeesZ]

I would welcome this type of information. My only suggestion would be to "stick to the facts" and avoid opinions (as stated before) and keep everything in tune with good spirit and intent.

Pricing is a very opinion-oriented topic; the seller has an opinion and the buyers each have their own opinions as well. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, right? I would offer up a pricing opinion if asked to do so and it was subject to comment by other club/board members. Personally, I think the ethical dilemma arises if you are aware of something critical and do not pass it on to others who may be impacted.

[Mike]

I don't think it's a problem if you use this club to describe YOUR OPINIONS about a car on Ebay, Craigs List, etc.. But, please make sure you never condemn somebody directly based on these opinions. This isn't a place to attack, rather, it's a place to talk about opinions, ideas, and factual data.

[EScanlon]

I posted a link to this thread on the "Yet another E-Bay scam?" thread:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?p=200774#post200774

Reiterating what I posted there, I think that information that allows members to avoid being scammed is always welcome...unsolicited or not.

However, reports on vehicles's mechanical, structural and bodywork condition would have to depend on the poster's knowledge and experience.

Not trying to say that only the experts should post their opinion, but rather that there are items that I, personally wouldn't want to even attempt to interpret for someone else.

I've got years of experience in a body shop back many years ago, and have since kept my hand in it by working on cars as a hobby. Even when I worked in the body shop, we wouldn't make decisions on frame damage....that belonged to the frame shop. Additionally, we would always have all or almost all of the mechanical (grease) work performed before we began the body work. Again, whether the engine or drive train or brakes needed work....that's the mechanic's responsibility.

When Gary and I went to check on vehicles here in the Portland area for other members, we went as a team to ensure that between the two of us we could give a better and more informed evaluation. Even then, we would caution that this was our OPINION.

Mike's point is very important.

Many people in an effort to be helpful, interpret the factual data. While this interpretation may be due in part to stereotypical evaluation, the problem is greatly exacerbated when you start assigning intent.

Making claims about someone's intent can be misguided and inflammatory and bluntly, unless you have telepathy, ESP or some other para-normal method of knowing....can be YOU voicing YOUR worst fears.

Suddenly a poorly repaired fender, a fresh coat of undercoating, even a freshly detailed vehicle all have hidden EVIL intent...and all to defraud the buyer and not a seller's intent to maximize his selling price.

This can also apply to the price a seller is asking. This can be subjective to the nth degree. West Coast buyers wouldn't pay what East Coast buyers accept as "normal" and the reverse situation would have East Coast buyers marveling at the bargains, while driving prices up in the west.

Give your opinion, but back it up with facts. Conjecture is the first part of the recipe for fiction, and is a synonym with surmise and guess.

FWIW

E

[280z1975]

I think if there was a separate forum, where people could post what they have seen in a car with photos and their opinion of a car that would be VERY helpful. The last thing we want is a person feeling bad about buying a Z car then giving up on the car and letting it go out to pasture at the junk yard.

As they say in Dragnet, "Just the facts Ma'm"

REAL PHOTOS, taken from the angle of someone who is going to buy a car and NOT someone who is going to sell it will tell more than most opinions can. I can take a real junker of a car and photograph it to look much better than it actually is in person. Same goes with a house ... how many of us when looking for a house have seen the house photos online then scratched your heads when you saw the place in person. Same goes for cars ...