Engine only runs with starter fluid

[djwarner]

Hi hatepotholez,

I'm jumping in here at your request. Forgive me if I'm covering old ground, just read the last page of the thread to get a feeling of your problems.

Your timing shaft sounds like it is correctly oriented. To verify, rotate the crank to TDC of #1. Pull the distributor cap and verify the rotor is pointing at the number 1 wire. I am assuming that the offset of the distributor timing shaft is on the correct side (not 180 degrees out of phase).

At this point verify you have disconnected the vacuum advance line and plugged it with a golf tee.

Now what I suspect your real problem is. Your car originally came with points ignition. It is common practice to swap out a distributor from a later Z to upgrade to an electronic ignition. Mine came with a '79 280ZX Automatic distributor. Unfortunately, the timing lockdown plate was changed sometime in the intervening years. Using a later distributor with an original lockdown plate will cause the problem you speak of. Also, it is possible to install the plate upside down. You may have either or both conditions.

I have the old lockdown plate and spent too much time trying configure things with the timing in the middle of the adjustment range. It ended up near an extreme end of the adjustment range when an inner, wiser voice told me to accept what works and to get on with my life.

Hope this helps and you can get back to solving your forward carb float problem. If you are still using the mechanical fuel pump, you can manually exercise the pump with the valve cover is removed. Verify you have generous flow with the banjo bolt removed. Then verify the holes in the banjo bolt itself flow freely and are not clogged.  

BTW, manually exercising the mechanical fuel pump is a great way to prime the carbs after a tear down. Saves the extended cranking needed with dry carbs. You should have the valve cover off then to verify oil is getting to the upper deck before starting anyway.

Hope this helps,

 

dj

[siteunseen]

I'm playing around with my float levels also, if you can call it "playing".  It's a PITA to me. 

I rebuilt mine after watching the ztherapy video.  Set the floats as they show on said video, WAY OFF!  After reading the world wide web plus a little more I found where ztherapy says to not do it the way the video shows, different valves won't hold the float up to measure .55" from inverted lid to float roof like I had mine.  Now the way is to let the float dangle down and slowly push up until you can't blow through the supply line.  I think I finally read where it should measure somewhere between 11mm 14mm from float roof to the lid.  I decided to scratch all that and put the float and lid on top of a small glass.  Measure down 23mm from the inside bottom of the lid, down the glass and make a mark.  Pour gas through the supply and get the floats at the 23mm line on the glass.  Here's where I got the idea, thanks @Jeff G 78

Oh yeah, when you're fooling with filling the float chambers a lot, I've found that removing the plugs and taking the coil wire off works fast and best for me.  Mr Warner's way also works good but I haven't removed my valve cover.

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by siteunseen

[hatepotholez]

1 hour ago, djwarner said:

Hi hatepotholez,

I'm jumping in here at your request. Forgive me if I'm covering old ground, just read the last page of the thread to get a feeling of your problems.

Your timing shaft sounds like it is correctly oriented. To verify, rotate the crank to TDC of #1. Pull the distributor cap and verify the rotor is pointing at the number 1 wire. I am assuming that the offset of the distributor timing shaft is on the correct side (not 180 degrees out of phase).

At this point verify you have disconnected the vacuum advance line and plugged it with a golf tee.

Now what I suspect your real problem is. Your car originally came with points ignition. It is common practice to swap out a distributor from a later Z to upgrade to an electronic ignition. Mine came with a '79 280ZX Automatic distributor. Unfortunately, the timing lockdown plate was changed sometime in the intervening years. Using a later distributor with an original lockdown plate will cause the problem you speak of. Also, it is possible to install the plate upside down. You may have either or both conditions.

I have the old lockdown plate and spent too much time trying configure things with the timing in the middle of the adjustment range. It ended up near an extreme end of the adjustment range when an inner, wiser voice told me to accept what works and to get on with my life.

Hope this helps and you can get back to solving your forward carb float problem. If you are still using the mechanical fuel pump, you can manually exercise the pump with the valve cover is removed. Verify you have generous flow with the banjo bolt removed. Then verify the holes in the banjo bolt itself flow freely and are not clogged.  

BTW, manually exercising the mechanical fuel pump is a great way to prime the carbs after a tear down. Saves the extended cranking needed with dry carbs. You should have the valve cover off then to verify oil is getting to the upper deck before starting anyway.

Hope this helps,

 

dj

Thank you DJ,

I have never considered the distributor being different. It does have points as those are new and I adjusted the gap per the FSM. I will remove the distributor and check the number on it to confirm if it's original. Also I wish the lock plate was upside down, it isn't as the marks on the plate and the marks on the distributor match. 

If the distributor is the original one, what else would it be? 

One thing I did not do is remove the vaccum line. The golf tee should be inserted when the engine is running and the timing light at 10 degreees btdc.

41 minutes ago, siteunseen said:

I'm playing around with my float levels also, if you can call it "playing".  It's a PITA to me. 

I rebuilt mine after watching the ztherapy video.  Set the floats as they show on said video, WAY OFF!  After reading the world wide web plus a little more I found where ztherapy says to not do it the way the video shows, different valves won't hold the float up to measure .55" from inverted lid to float roof like I had mine.  Now the way is to let the float dangle down and slowly push up until you can't blow through the supply line.  I think I finally read where it should measure somewhere between 11mm 14mm from float roof to the lid.  I decided to scratch all that and put the float and lid on top of a small glass.  Measure down 23mm from the inside bottom of the lid, down the glass and make a mark.  Pour gas through the supply and get the floats at the 23mm line on the glass.  Here's where I got the idea, thanks @Jeff G 78

Oh yeah, when you're fooling with filling the float chambers a lot, I've found that removing the plugs and taking the coil wire off works fast and best for me.  Mr Warner's way also works good but I haven't removed my valve cover.

Thanks for the link.

The front bowl has driven me crazy. The crazy is part that the rear carb is fine, something happens when the float is put back into the bow. Either the float gets stuck or the pin comes out on one side. ughhh so frustrating. 

[siteunseen]

12 minutes ago, hatepotholez said:

The front bowl has driven me crazy. The crazy is part that the rear carb is fine, something happens when the float is put back into the bow. Either the float gets stuck or the pin comes out on one side. ughhh so frustrating. 

I don't know if this will be helpful to you in any way but it's a simple trick to test the float "floatability".  On the lid there is a vent/overflow hose connector.  You can use those little red straws that come with aerosol cans like WD-40 to stick down that connector and then it rest on the float's roof.  With that you can see if the float is moving freely.  I actually left one in and watched it raise and lower ever so slightly while I revved the motor.

There should be a small tang coming off the floats hinge that keeps the float from dropping beyond the wall of the float chamber.  It hits the mounting "legs" where the pin goes in.  If it's bent wrong it'll make getting the float back in the chamber a little tough.  You can sort of eyeball the tang the pin rides on in this picture.  Before I learned the "Just SUs DVD" had some old instructions that are no good with the valves they now sell my tangs were ramped up almost to the top of the pin holes.  They should be way down like the picture.

 

That connections is closest to the carb body and looks similar to this only it stands straight up, vertically.

[siteunseen]

35 minutes ago, hatepotholez said:

One thing I did not do is remove the vaccum line. The golf tee should be inserted when the engine is running and the timing light at 10 degreees btdc.

I'm scared of that radiator fan so I always put the golf tee inside the hose end off the distributor, not the end coming off the front carb, before I crank mine.  If you get those marks on the pulley facing down, you can slide under the car and paint those marks with White-Out or whatever to make them easier to see.  The first one from the left is 0, it's a little bigger notch also, then 5, 10, 15, 20 etc.

[hatepotholez]

2 hours ago, siteunseen said:

I don't know if this will be helpful to you in any way but it's a simple trick to test the float "floatability".  On the lid there is a vent/overflow hose connector.  You can use those little red straws that come with aerosol cans like WD-40 to stick down that connector and then it rest on the float's roof.  With that you can see if the float is moving freely.  I actually left one in and watched it raise and lower ever so slightly while I revved the motor.

There should be a small tang coming off the floats hinge that keeps the float from dropping beyond the wall of the float chamber.  It hits the mounting "legs" where the pin goes in.  If it's bent wrong it'll make getting the float back in the chamber a little tough.  You can sort of eyeball the tang the pin rides on in this picture.  Before I learned the "Just SUs DVD" had some old instructions that are no good with the valves they now sell my tangs were ramped up almost to the top of the pin holes.  They should be way down like the picture.

 

That connections is closest to the carb body and looks similar to this only it stands straight up, vertically.

The WD-40 is a good idea, I can see the float when I remove the vent but wasn't sure if it was moving. I wish I had a tiny camera to put in that hole to see what's going on.

I believe my front float/ plate doesn't have the tongs to stop the float from going all the way back. When I remove the float/plate the float just swings all the way back and then get's stuck, I have to then push it forward. I don't think this is an issue inside the bowl because the float will never swing that far back. Another thing that might be an issue is the pin holding the float, it is very loose. Is it possible that this pin can move back and fourth causing one end of the float to come down?

2 hours ago, siteunseen said:

I'm scared of that radiator fan so I always put the golf tee inside the hose end off the distributor, not the end coming off the front carb, before I crank mine.  If you get those marks on the pulley facing down, you can slide under the car and paint those marks with White-Out or whatever to make them easier to see.  The first one from the left is 0, it's a little bigger notch also, then 5, 10, 15, 20 etc.

So basically, I had the crank at the top mark, and the distributor at the middle of the range. Should I put it at the 10 degree mark and then put the wires on? This is of course if I have the original distributor. 

 

 

[siteunseen]

If the float pin holes are that wallard out I would buy new floats or bigger pins.  Seems like you might could squeeze the hinge together or apart to tighten them up?  If it's the OE distributor this post about worn springs inside make a lot of sense to me.

 

[hatepotholez]

4 hours ago, siteunseen said:

If the float pin holes are that wallard out I would buy new floats or bigger pins.  Seems like you might could squeeze the hinge together or apart to tighten them up?  If it's the OE distributor this post about worn springs inside make a lot of sense to me.

Ok i'll try and mess with the pin or where it connects. 

 

[hatepotholez]

Ok here's some photos. The car is running on its own without any throttle help but the same situation with the distributor. I did notice the small adjustment was fully to one side, so I put that back in the middle. I tried the timing light when it was running and I couldn't get it to 10 degrees but more like 16. This is the only time it would flash, it wouldn't flash at 10 degrees 

im trying to use the Tapatalk app for the photos. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited January 1, 2017 by hatepotholez
Photos

[Zed Head]

On 12/31/2016 at 8:00 AM, hatepotholez said:

One thing I did not do is remove the vaccum line. The golf tee should be inserted when the engine is running and the timing light at 10 degreees btdc.

Did you?

[Zed Head]

21 minutes ago, hatepotholez said:

Ok here's some photos. 

And no photos.

[hatepotholez]

51 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

Did you?

Yes, I did remove the vacuum and try to time it. It actually helped a lot removing the vacuum, it stayed on without help of the throttle. 

43 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

And no photos.

Uploaded now.

 

The distributor is a D612-53 didn't see this in the 72 FSM. My build date is 6/72.

Edited January 1, 2017 by hatepotholez