lonetreesteve

1970 Franklin Mint 240Z up for Auction on BaT

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6 hours ago, Jason240z said:

All the sold prices point towards it being so. The fact that its just a regular model at over twice the normal sale price for such a car.  It wasn't even a factory correct version.  Someone paid for it by bidding with Ego, only the seller won there.

Yeah, I don't really know anything about the car, it looks very nice, but it seems to me that the price was driven largely by hype, and people fawning over how amazing it is. It's like they want the car to be more special than it actually is. It's a nice car, but the big deal seems to be that it was used to create a model 240Z (hence why they're calling it the Franklin Mint car), and that just isn't a big deal. 

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Technically, this is just one of a number of 'Blips' in the Z car world.  While this is double what might be considered by Hagerty a 'Concours' level car, it's rarity is what makes it valuable.  This pretty much goes with anything in a free market economy.  Other Z car  'Blips' in the $100K range would be any of the gold medallion cars, the VZ cars, Very low S/N cars and low mileage original unrestored cars.  These cars are going off in the $100K range RIGHT NOW, they are just not as publicized as this one.  Yes, this is a minority of the Z car population, but it is reality.  Yes, the average price of a very nice condition restored Z is going to be in the $30-60K range, but the cream of the crop are commanding top dollar and truly worth what the market will pay.  Unfortunately, most of us are not in that market.

Edited by motorman7
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I am not sure it is a "complete random blip". Will be interesting to watch future high value cars. By the time I get my car done and running it will be too valuable to drive! :facepalm:


This is what upsets me - I bought the Z as a hero halo car I can drive hard and enjoy, not as an asset that I worry about breaking.

But having the “inferior” 260z I doubt I need to worry too much :p

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Just now, AK260 said:

This is what upsets me - I bought the Z as a hero halo car I can drive hard and enjoy, not as an asset that I worry about breaking.

But having the “inferior” 260z I doubt I need to worry too much 😛

 

I have a feeling more people are going to keep their car stock, So they can resell them later at a higher price.  As far as the 260z value is concerned, Just give it time

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8 minutes ago, AK260 said:

 


This is what upsets me - I bought the Z as a hero halo car I can drive hard and enjoy, not as an asset that I worry about breaking.

But having the “inferior” 260z I doubt I need to worry too much 😛

I get it and have started browsing for a 260 or 280z that I could run and modify, but I agree with Mike. It's only a matter of time for the 260 & 280 start appreciating in this manner.

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34 minutes ago, 26th-Z said:

Its called provenance.  I personally share your thoughts, but the provenance thing is ruling (like the idea of value for a car Steve McQueen once drove).

 

As people on this forum have said for years, "Save your receipts, your owners manual, your window sticker, your original bill of sale, anything that documents the history of the car or makes it a little more special than the rest." as it will add to the luster when it comes time to sell.  That all worked for the BaT seller.

 I don't have much from my Z other than the original bill of sale.  But, for my Porsche 914-6, I have documents from the original, and subsequent, owners as well as an accordion folder full of restoration receipts.  All good to have for the next owner.  With the Avanti, I have a copy of the original factory production order as well as the six page final assembly line inspection checklist.  Best of all, I have hand written letters from the designer, Raymond Loewy, noting the Avanti's VIN.  Provenance should probably be spelled Provenan$e.

Dennis

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I got the privilege of meeting Bill Reagan after he did this restoration and when the green 240Z he restored was sitting in his garage. I would say this car is well worth what was paid for it and its value will only increase provided it is cared for.  It isn't a low VIN chassis but the quality of his work, the documentation he could reconstitute on the car's history plus his own of his restoration adds an enormous amount of the value.  He was rewarded for his efforts from the recognition that came from Mr K, Gold Medallion, Franklin mint etc.  I hope the car is entered in to more events and recognized even more for the condition it is in and the quality restoration that was done.  If there is one that is in equal or better condition, it has yet to be unearthed so this is a worthy "blip" for what it is and what others aren't.

BTW  The green car he restored sold in April for almost $70K  but didn't appear to have been cared for as well nor did it have the recognition, I hope it gets shown at prestigious events because it too is an exceptional build. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-datsun-240z-36/

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How does all this 'gold medallion' stuff work? is i just based on the quality of its restoration?  There's lots of amazing restorations around, none factory perfect but more than comparable.

Edited by Jason240z

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When I was judging for the ZCCA, there was a well-defined judging manual and description for the stock classes.  I recall that batteries were overlooked for authenticity.  Normally, judging evaluates the car on everything you can see from one knee on the ground and up.  It was a 300 point system broken down into areas of the car - engine bay, interior, body, etc.  Points were deducted for cleanliness, originality, and condition.  I usually dinked a car one point for cleanliness, five points for an incorrect part, but hardly ever ten points unless the item was junk.  I recall that a minimum score of 280 got into the "medallion round" when the car was re-judged by a selected team, pretty knowledgable guys.  Anything over 290 (ten point deduct) got the ZCCA's highest award, the Gold Cup or the Gold Medallion.  Frankie, I heard, scored a 295.

As I said in the BaT comments section, I can think of several equitable cars.  Most of them are Gold Medallion 'stock' cars and some are Gold Cup 'modified' cars.  All the Vintage Zs fall into this category.  And I think the low VIN cars do too.  In all cases though, the car has to really sparkle.  I agree as gogriz91 pointed out, that green car looked tired and dirty.

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As people on this forum have said for years, "Save your receipts, your owners manual, your window sticker, your original bill of sale, anything that documents the history of the car or makes it a little more special than the rest." as it will add to the luster when it comes time to sell.  That all worked for the BaT seller.




Does this count?

6489973e36dc9f74b46b48583e3984d4.jpg

6b11ca8fc72d6a1d59132b1a9bba7b83.jpg
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9 hours ago, rturbo 930 said:

It's like they want the car to be more special than it actually is.

Amen brother, after that you enter the land of ego driven pricing.

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Looks like the new owner is a current member of our club...   I'll wait for him to introduce himself..  😉

 

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9 hours ago, 26th-Z said:

When I was judging for the ZCCA, there was a well-defined judging manual and description for the stock classes.  I recall that batteries were overlooked for authenticity.  Normally, judging evaluates the car on everything you can see from one knee on the ground and up.  It was a 300 point system broken down into areas of the car - engine bay, interior, body, etc.  Points were deducted for cleanliness, originality, and condition.  I usually dinked a car one point for cleanliness, five points for an incorrect part, but hardly ever ten points unless the item was junk.  I recall that a minimum score of 280 got into the "medallion round" when the car was re-judged by a selected team, pretty knowledgable guys.  Anything over 290 (ten point deduct) got the ZCCA's highest award, the Gold Cup or the Gold Medallion.  Frankie, I heard, scored a 295.

As I said in the BaT comments section, I can think of several equitable cars.  Most of them are Gold Medallion 'stock' cars and some are Gold Cup 'modified' cars.  All the Vintage Zs fall into this category.  And I think the low VIN cars do too.  In all cases though, the car has to really sparkle.  I agree as gogriz91 pointed out, that green car looked tired and dirty.

Thanks for that, so this car wouldn't have been marked down for the bits that aren't 'correct' or missing?

I must point out, I think that this is a great car, just not 125k great!

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7 hours ago, 240260280 said:

One must accept:

  • price is set by the whim of the purchasing population.
  • prices increase with time and the value of some older items increases more than the values of others.
  • price increases do not occur homogeneously across the full population of products.
  • price increases do not occur homogeneously across geographical distributions.
  • price increases do not always linearly scale with time.

Pricing is bursty, price-growth is bursty, buyers are complex and independent entities who are wise, suckers, or carefree.

 

Please allow me to add one more bullet:

•. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Dennis

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On 6/5/2019 at 6:50 AM, zspert said:

This is the late, and very missed, Paul Taylor's car. It was my shop that brought it up to 295 points and serviced it for many years. Very fond memories of convoying to Z car shows with Paul and lovely wife Sandy.  Seeing all the crap going down on that site depresses me to no end

What I would like to know is what you/your shop did to the vehicle to bring it up to the 295 point mark. I'm very interested in some specifics if you don't mind elaborating. I do have a valid reason for asking this question and I'm by no means meaning it disrespectfully

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Check out what I just found in my files.  This was the original order form that was sent to me from the Franklin Mint.  I used one of these to order my model.  I have two copies of this set and am willing to send it to the new owner of the Z purchased on BaT (if you don't already have a copy).  Just send me a PM.

 

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Very cool. Note the lack of an OK decal that did appear on the model. Wonder what happened?

 

I had the pleasure of attending the annual White Rose Z Car Club car show this past Sat.  It was held at the city park in the quiet central Pa town of Mt. Carmel. The weather couldn't have been better at about 72 degrees, bright sun and a slight breeze. Got to renew friendships with the club members I knew when they annually held what is recognized as the gold standard as it applies to Z car shows. Of course the subject of the BAT sale of the late Paul Taylor's 240 was talked about. A lot of chat about the many times Paul competed in their event and how tough his competition often was.  Some pretty strong opinions, almost universally negative, about the silly and disrespectful nicknames being thrown about for the car.  For instance, not one of us could remember Paul ever referring to his Z as  "Goldie". Anyway, we all agreed that our respectful reference would always be "Paul's Car".  The new owner would be wise to use that reference as it has significantly more provenance in the Z world then the Franklin Mint Car, or any silly nickname being considered, as the Franklin Mint was but a chapter in the history of the most honored Z car to date.      Cheers

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........and you took “Paul’s Car” across the finish line to Z history. Great work Mike.

Regards

Guy

 

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On 6/8/2019 at 8:43 PM, psdenno said:

Please allow me to add one more bullet:

•. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Dennis

Tsunamis on the other hand...

There's an old Japanese proverb which translates along the lines of "Too many oarsmen will row the boat up a mountain."

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soggtfishtaco - whenever I make the mistake of  taking a day off it can take me a few days to catch up. Please give me some time and I'll get back to your question.

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