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Home Built by Jeff

Home Built Z 'Full video build'

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A son comes to his father and asks for help with homework, Dad, I was given an assignment to explain the difference between theory and reality. The dad thinks about it for a minute and tells his son to ask his mother if she will be willing to sleep with the neighbour for $100, the son  returns and reports the answer is a loud "NO", the father sends the kid to ask the same question to his older sister, the son return with the same results....the father now sends the kid to ask the same question yet up the price to $1000000...the kid returns with an "I guess" answer. 

The father responds: you see son, in theory we are millionaires yet in reality we have two whores in the house.

Badabing.

If you don't get it....no worries, you wont get it.

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Its not supposed to be funny.

The brakes are not the same, you get more pad material=more clamping area=better braking

As the front brakes do %75 of the work, the bias front to rear is negligible. you would know that if you ever tried it.

 

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20 minutes ago, tzagi1 said:

The brakes are not the same, you get more pad material=more clamping area=better braking

As the front brakes do %75 of the work, the bias front to rear is negligible. you would know that if you ever tried it.

I don't try things that don't make sense.

The bias would be 75:25.  That's not negligible.  

So, in sum, you've used the Toyota calipers and the car stops, about the same as it did before.  Less pedal effort, level undefined.  That's about all there is to this discussion. 

Good luck Jeff.

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To each his own, refer back to post #401.

You have those who been doing it for 30 years + and those who are too busy talking how it doesn't work.

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I would think you'd want around a 70/30 split front/rear?

Definitely not ''all four tires contributing to stopping equally''. I think most will find a 50/50 bias very scary!

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10 minutes ago, riceburner said:

I would think you'd want around a 70/30 split front/rear?

Definitely not ''all four tires contributing to stopping equally''. I think most will find a 50/50 bias very scary!

70/30 would make all tyres stop evenly. 50/50 and you would have the rears lock before the front due to weight transfer. I learned very quickly during my drifting days when you are sliding backwards and stomp the brake the fronts lock up and just drag (similar to when you pull the handbrake when you are going forward). The quickest way to pull up when you are sliding backwards is to pull the handbrake which essentially flips the bias.  

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Zed Head's logic is right on the money. If you improve the brakes on the rear of the vehicle only, you subsequently alter the balance provided by the factory setup bias. In order to return to the original bias you either have to upgrade the front brakes as well (theoretically in the same proportion as you improved the rears), or introduce an adjustable proportioning valve. 

Edited by dmorales-bello
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On 12/21/2018 at 10:50 PM, tzagi1 said:

To each his own, refer back to post #401.

You have those who been doing it for 30 years + and those who are too busy talking how it doesn't work.

Doing it for 30yrs doesn't necessarily it was done right, now before you get your back up let me try and explain it another way.

Stock brakes are designed to have a balance of 70/30 front to back,  you throw a set of Toyota 4 pot calipers up front and because of the larger displacement now you have a balance of 85/15, you take the car for a drive and slam on the brakes, the front of the car pitches down a lot more than it did before with the stock brakes and feels like the car is stopping faster, but it isn't, it's actually taking you longer to stop because the rear brakes aren't doing the right amount of work and the front brakes are overloaded.

I've had 3 different configurations of "upgraded" brakes, rear discs, larger MC, larger booster, adjustable proportioning valve on my Z and I still can't lock up all 4 wheels at the same time.  It took me a long time and a lot of money to realize that it is called a braking system for a reason. Each braking system is designed specifically for that car if you change any major component on a braking system you will throw the systems balance off.

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1 hour ago, grannyknot said:

Doing it for 30yrs doesn't necessarily it was done right, now before you get your back up let me try and explain it another way.

Stock brakes are designed to have a balance of 70/30 front to back,  you throw a set of Toyota 4 pot calipers up front and because of the larger displacement now you have a balance of 85/15, you take the car for a drive and slam on the brakes, the front of the car pitches down a lot more than it did before with the stock brakes and feels like the car is stopping faster, but it isn't, it's actually taking you longer to stop because the rear brakes aren't doing the right amount of work and the front brakes are overloaded.

I've had 3 different configurations of "upgraded" brakes, rear discs, larger MC, larger booster, adjustable proportioning valve on my Z and I still can't lock up all 4 wheels at the same time.  It took me a long time and a lot of money to realize that it is called a braking system for a reason. Each braking system is designed specifically for that car if you change any major component on a braking system you will throw the systems balance off.

It would be fun to take the same car and do some actual empirical testing to show this.

Stopping distance tests:

           with properly functioning stocks brakes

           with stock drums and yota solids

           with stock drums and yota vented

          with rear disc (Maximas?) and yota vented / solid

See what the actual footage is before and after proportioning valve adjustments

I suspect the results would be surprising. I suspect the footage actually gets worse in many of these scenarios at least until the balance gets right.

The biggest advantage to the Yota caliper in my opinion is the vented rotor should run cooler overall. The biggest disadvantage besides longer possible stopping distances is higher sprung weight.

I wonder if any one at HybridZ has done any testing like this?

 

 

Edited by Patcon

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4 hours ago, wheee! said:

Maybe we should move this to it’s own thread.. Very interesting conversation!

I think this is definitely a worthwhile discussion. 

 

6 hours ago, grannyknot said:

Stock brakes are designed to have a balance of 70/30 front to back,  you throw a set of Toyota 4 pot calipers up front and because of the larger displacement now you have a balance of 85/15, you take the car for a drive and slam on the brakes, the front of the car pitches down a lot more than it did before with the stock brakes and feels like the car is stopping faster, but it isn't, it's actually taking you longer to stop because the rear brakes aren't doing the right amount of work and the front brakes are overloaded.

Adding the Toyota callipers on the front increases the braking surface, so on that percentage I could see 85/15, but does that take into account the greater volume of fluid that needs to be moved? I am imagining that the Toyota callipers require more pedal travel to get them to engage than the factory ones, could it even out the balance (as the rears would still lock at the same travel as before) or even send more bias towards the rear?

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1 hour ago, Home Built by Jeff said:

I think this is definitely a worthwhile discussion. 

This first thread is a must for anyone interested in modifying brakes, https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/38592-brake-balance-faq/

These next two threads are specifically on modifying 240z-280z brakes, you can see over the 11 yrs of the thread what people have tried, what worked, what didn't, https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/38499-brake-upgrade-faq/

https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/104910-brakes-who-is-running-what/

Now if you need to occasionally escape all the "fun" of Christmas, these threads will keep you busy.

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27 minutes ago, grannyknot said:

This first thread is a must for anyone interested in modifying brakes, https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/38592-brake-balance-faq/

These next two threads are specifically on modifying 240z-280z brakes, you can see over the 11 yrs of the thread what people have tried, what worked, what didn't, https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/38499-brake-upgrade-faq/

https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/104910-brakes-who-is-running-what/

Now if you need to occasionally escape all the "fun" of Christmas, these threads will keep you busy.

The other thing to remember when reading those threads, is some of those guys are racers and know about how to make cars handle and stop.

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26 minutes ago, grannyknot said:

This first thread is a must for anyone interested in modifying brakes, https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/38592-brake-balance-faq/

These next two threads are specifically on modifying 240z-280z brakes, you can see over the 11 yrs of the thread what people have tried, what worked, what didn't, https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/38499-brake-upgrade-faq/

https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/104910-brakes-who-is-running-what/

Now if you need to occasionally escape all the "fun" of Christmas, these threads will keep you busy.

So if I am too lazy to pour through 11 years of threads, those who did the swap I have done, what was the result?

Either way I will be putting mine together and checking the actual results I get. We will see. 

I get jaded about some of these long threads as there are so many contradictory impressions, that it is difficult to separate the 'wheat from the chaff'. I just went through something similar headaches trying to work out the best width and offset for wheels to fit ZG flares. You would think that it has been done for years and there would be plenty of info available, but I searched countless threads on different forums and couldn't find anything useful. I ended up manually going through and measuring the width and offset of the factory wheels and then measuring where I wanted them to sit. I ended up getting 15x9 -20 all round which I have just received and they look like they will sit just right.

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It's the internet. I take it all with a grain of salt unless I know the poster.

It can be hard to sort out reality, especially on HybridZ, because the threads can pinball all over the place

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5 hours ago, Home Built by Jeff said:

I ended up getting 15x9 -20 all round which I have just received and they look like they will sit just right.

What tires are you thinking about? Some big fatties?

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1 hour ago, w3wilkes said:

What tires are you thinking about? Some big fatties?

It is more a matter of what I can get that will fit. I still have some research to do in that area, although as the rims are right to the edge of the flares, I will probably err on the narrow side.

 

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