gundee

1970 Z432 For Sale - California

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6 hours ago, Blue said:

$225k = $25k for the S30 and $200k for the engine and badges.

I think the $200k is mostly for the badges, if you look at the numbers for the s20 it's not really a very impressive engine, small displacement, very heavy, something like 440lbs and it only put out 130ftlbs of torque. What's all the fuss about? Nice badges though, worth every penny.

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Reassuring to see the forum dimwits being dimwits. We can't be far from an 'LS-it' meme...

The "what's all the fuss about" viewpoint is half philistinism and half luddite. If a G-Shock tells the time more accurately, why would you ever buy a vintage Girard Perregaux? Why buy an oil painting when you can have a bubble-jet printed poster for next to nothing? If she can't tell the difference, you might as well give your wife a paste ring instead of wasting all that money on a real diamond.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, HS30-H said:

Reassuring to see the forum dimwits being dimwits. We can't be far from an 'LS-it' meme...

The "what's all the fuss about" viewpoint is half philistinism and half luddite. If a G-Shock tells the time more accurately, why would you ever buy a vintage Girard Perregaux? Why buy an oil painting when you can have a bubble-jet printed poster for next to nothing? If she can't tell the difference, you might as well give your wife a paste ring instead of wasting all that money on a real diamond.

 

 

 

 

 

Allan, you can blather on all you like about the ephemerals of the 432 and your resort to your predictable and priggish insults but lets talk numbers. The 432 is a rare car, granted and so what? For a 1/4 million bucks you get a $20,000 car and a whole lot of ego. For that money you don't get any special performance or handling, you get the same as a mildly breathed on stock Z. 

Personally I'm not interested in the Emperor's clothing, you are welcome to his entire wardrobe, I'm interested in what is in his garage.  I'm also not interested in how easily a fool and his money is parted, I leave that to you as well. Myself and many other members here would appreciate it if you could simply ague the facts an stop with the petty insults.

Mike, as moderator, could you please go back through the last 30-40 posts that Allan has submitted and take note of all the belitting insults he has made to other members including the posts of his that you have deleted?

 

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1 hour ago, grannyknot said:

Allan, you can blather on all you like about the ephemerals of the 432 and your resort to your predictable and priggish insults but lets talk numbers. The 432 is a rare car, granted and so what? For a 1/4 million bucks you get a $20,000 car and a whole lot of ego. For that money you don't get any special performance or handling, you get the same as a mildly breathed on stock Z. 

Personally I'm not interested in the Emperor's clothing, you are welcome to his entire wardrobe, I'm interested in what is in his garage.  I'm also not interested in how easily a fool and his money is parted, I leave that to you as well. Myself and many other members here would appreciate it if you could simply ague the facts an stop with the petty insults.

Mike, as moderator, could you please go back through the last 30-40 posts that Allan has submitted and take note of all the belitting insults he has made to other members including the posts of his that you have deleted?

 

First of all, it's Alan. A-L-A-N. Got it?

Secondly, the name of this forum is classiczcars.com (got it?). If you don't recognise the PS30 Fairlady Z432 as one of the most desirable, rare and interesting iterations of the S30-series Z then maybe you are on the wrong forum?

If Mike is going to be looking back at anything he might want to take a peep at many of the recent posts from you and your sidekick (many of which have been, ahem, deleted...), which are often off-message, off colour and - in my opinion - more suited to the level of zcar.com than classiczcars.com.

My comments about philistinism still stand. It's hard to take seriously anyone who snorts "you get a $20,000 car and a whole lot of ego", and I wonder if you would like to point it out to the 432/432R owners who frequent this forum? Does the comparison still stand if the car in question is HLS30-00013?

 

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11 minutes ago, Martzedcars said:

Hihi... good one Blue...:Bazinga:

Moral of that particular tale: 'Don't buy crap from Blue.'

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1 hour ago, grannyknot said:

Personally I'm not interested in the Emperor's clothing...

I'm also not interested in how easily a fool and his money is parted, I leave that to you as well.

By the way, I'm up for a proper discussion on the PS30 Fairlady Z432 if anyone else is. Informed, intelligent discourse - robustly presented - is always welcome. It might even pour over into a bit of philosophy (nothing means anything anyway, does it?) and there might be some mist and fog around the more nebulous edges of the topic, but we might actually get somewhere that the comments above won't take us to.

Your "Emperor's clothing" and "fool and his money" comments appear to be throwaway lines intended to stir up a discourse that you are ill-equipped to take an informed part of. Perhaps you should leave it to people who know what they are talking about, or whom are willing to learn?

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Here, here to your reply to grabmyknot, Alan!  For what price does ignorance offer the world of opinion?  Shutter my word, I beseech thee, as I regret that I have but only one brake caliper to give for my Z!

I was hoping that we might have an intellectual conversation about the cross-flow headed monster.  I am so disappointed to read the remarks of disdain.  Yes, in fact, the PS30 does outperform the S30 to which it would be properly (intelligently)  compared.  It outperforms the HLS30 without having to be breathed on, and, the marque has racing provenance not equitably shared by the 240Z.

Finally, I completely disagree with the opinion that the basic car is worth only $20,000.
 

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Crossflow head is slightly better, more valves is slightly better..... but a Z from same period has more displacement so it is difficult to compare,

Throw 3 carbs and a header on a 240z  and  bore the Prince engine to 2.4l then compare.

 

but then again there is small block and cool badges on the orange uber-high valued  VIN HLS30-00012:  http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/5782266088.html

 

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Just based on my experience, it's almost always impossible  to explain to people why I put a larger dollar value on a car like a Z432 vs, say, a stock 1970 Z, or even a modified Z with a Rubello engine.  The difference between these examples happens to matter to me, but I acknowledge I'm in the super-minority.

 I can confirm the same arguments are heard across Marques. There are plenty of enthusiasts with a 1973 Porsche 911 who wonder why their car is only worth $50,000, while the guy with the 1973 RS can sell his for $1,000,000. Or why the guy with the 1960 Ferrari 250 PF II cabriolet sells his car for $2 million, while the guy with the 250 LWB California - nearly the exact same car, save for a few body panels- gets $14 million for his.

The nerdy answer fundamentally is that there are enough marque fanatics who are students of the differences, and a select few more that have the means to insist on buying only the  top-end specifications, thus creating a market spread. In the case of the Z432, there are perhaps less than 200 surviving examples to choose from, in various states of originality, so when one comes up, you either buy it, or wait (potentially a long while) for the next one.

 

 

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To me, the Z432 is a rare, important, limited production car, indelibly part of Nissan's Z car heritage.

Value is what someone is willing to pay for the privilege of owning one.

When nice examples can cross the block at elite sales such as last years Amelia Island & sell for 230k (plus commission), it shows this is a serious collector car, and helps further the growing interest in all the early Z cars.

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1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

Value is in the eye of the beholder.  The only reason to call somebody a dimwit, implying that you are smarter than they are, is because you are insecure about your own opinions.  Instead of arguing the point, you make an ad hominem attack on the person.  It's a form of weakness, in mind and personality.

Thanks for the virtual Rorschach test, but my 'dimwits' comment still applies. I think it stands up to scrutiny against the likes of "For a 1/4 million bucks you get a $20,000 car and a whole lot of ego" and "I'm also not interested in how easily a fool and his money is parted, I leave that to you as well." So anybody who buys a 432 is an egotistical fool, right? 

You're now whining about "ad hominem attacks" but you were all for them when you were indulging yourself in the same here just a few weeks ago. Had a Road to Damascus moment? What I'm reading now doesn't seem to match up with the apologetic comments you sent to me by PM recently. Presumably you also miss the irony of whining about ad hominem attacks whilst you pepper your post in that very thing? The reason I'm calling our friends Blue and Grannyknot (and anyone else who qualifies) dimwits is because they don't get it. Blue can have the sobriquet with knobs on for his extra smallblock-equipped, orange painted faux low VIN effort, although he's only going to catch bottom feeders with his over-baited hook. 

Look, we've discussed these cars many, many times in the past on the classiczcars forum. I have taken part in a great many threads regarding them here and I've made clear what I think of them. The classiczcars.com forum archives are probably one of the best single-venue online resources for data - and opinion - on the PS30 and PS30-SB in the English language. I'd be immodest enough to say that I think I personally have a fairly good theoretical and practical knowledge of the variants in question, which is something the "Nice badges though, worth every penny" boys probably don't. I don't think I have anything to prove to you in that respect, even if you do think it's "...a form of weakness, in mind and personality". It seems to me that the people who are sniffing at the whole idea of the 432 (and their recent sale prices, which are simply a function of what our friend xs10shl so eloquently and succinctly describes) are only indulging themselves in their own inverted snobbery. Slating the 432 - and all that goes with that - whilst at the same time professing to be deeply interested, to the forensic level, in early production Zs and their fine details simply won't wash.     

By the way, I notice my retort to Blue's fake ebay ad idea (some will swallow that whole, but anyone switched on will realise that a Sumitomo S-16 caliper is a Sumitomo S-16 caliper...) was deleted and that Blue is - once again - able to edit his posts without leaving any excuse or evidence. Funny that...

 

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You may have a point, Zed Head, particularly with respect to implied generalities, i.e. name-calling.  But the reaction holds the indications you describe.  Someone got their button pushed, don't you think?  The post delete suggestion is an attack on free speech plain and simple.  That deplorable suggestion is the sort of thing that is fatal to a forum like this.  I'm guilty of many crimes, but I have never silenced someone.

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Deleted.  I think I was on-point but it's already established knowledge.

Mike should have stepped in at "dimwit".  We have a new Tony D in our midst.

 

Thanks for the "like" grannyknot.  Best to just move on with the light sarcasm and easy discussion this thread was meant to foment.  If HS30 gets his bloomers in a wad that's his problem. 

Edited by Zed Head
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21 minutes ago, 26th-Z said:

You may have a point, Zed Head, particularly with respect to implied generalities, i.e. name-calling.  But the reaction holds the indications you describe.  Someone got their button pushed, don't you think?  The post delete suggestion is an attack on free speech plain and simple.  That deplorable suggestion is the sort of thing that is fatal to a forum like this.  I'm guilty of many crimes, but I have never silenced someone.

Mike deletes a lot of my stuff also.  I'm not sure he really sees or has an opinion on the issues, I think he just sees the personalities.  Blue and HS30-H have favored status.  And it is Mike's site, so free speech isn't even an issue for discussion.  Mike can do what he wants with it.

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10 hours ago, Blue said:

Throw 3 carbs and a header on a 240z  and  bore the Prince engine to 2.4l then compare.

 

One might also consider that 2000cc is an important number when it comes to race eligibility.  Perhaps an L24 can be stroked to add lots more horsepower than an S20, but that point is largely moot, because a car with an L24 would be ineligible to participate in an "under 2000cc" race regardless.  The S20-powered car could happily compete with it's period 2000cc peers, and the L24-powered car might be thrown into a 3 liter class or larger. 

For a "like-for-like" 2000cc displacement, compare the L20 to the S20 as the period JDM market did, and many (perhaps most) concluded that the S20 was the better engine.   That said, only 420 people concluded it was worth finding a way to pay double the list price of an S30 for a PS30, which is what makes the car so rare today.

 

Edited by xs10shl
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It actually does look like it could be essentially a nice collection of rare and interesting parts.  The engine has some history behind it.  Good old Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_S20_engine

Has some similarities to cars like the Super Bird.  Racing rules drove the factories to make some unique vehicles, so there's the racing history behind the car also.  People who race cars generally have lots of extra money.  Partially explains the high value.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Superbird

Derek's making a more modern head for the L series.  Cheaper than a Z432.  http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/119641-twin-cam-head-for-the-l6-from-derek-at-datsunworks/

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The thread started with someone thinking the car was over priced for what it is.  Most of us concurred and had a few laughs along the way.

This is an internet forum where admission is an email account and ability to type....skill levels range beginner to expert.

 

btw my equation still holds:

$225k = $25k for the S30 and $200k for the engine and badges. :pow:

 

 

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10 hours ago, HS30-H said:

First of all, it's Alan. A-L-A-N. Got it?

Secondly, the name of this forum is classiczcars.com (got it?). If you don't recognise the PS30 Fairlady Z432 as one of the most desirable, rare and interesting iterations of the S30-series Z then maybe you are on the wrong forum?

 

 

 

 

No, I don't recognise it as any more desireable than any other Z, it is rare only because not many were made and that's because it wasn't profitable and it is interesting because it is part of the Z family. It's performance specs were impressive compared to its competition in its racing campaign and compared to the market it was released into. That was then, now it is compared to the other variants of the Z family that were being made at the same time, in that light it doesn't shine so brightly.

Compared to its lowly cousin, the NA 240Z it only showed modest performance gains. I'm not making that up, honest. I know that is not the standard dewy eyed party line but there it is.

You know the performance numbers of these cars as well as anyone, perhaps better, yet you keep going on about diamond rings, oil paintings and bubble jet printers. The numbers speak for themselves, the reason you won't address those numbers is because they prove my case and not yours.

My case is the Z432 is just one of members of the Z family and nothing more.  For those who bought their Z432 when the price was reasonable, :beer:

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2 minutes ago, grannyknot said:

The numbers speak for themselves, the reason you won't address those numbers is because they prove my case and not yours.

 

The only numbers that speak is the cash someone parts with to own one. Your reasoning, however valid, idealistic or delusional, is moot and holds precisely zero relevance to those that own or aspire to own a Z432.

The market is the market for reasons beyond reason.

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