What's wrong with US Senate?

[BRE-240Z]

You're kidding, right?

I could care less whether or not other Presidents have done similar things - that's speculation unless there's proof. My issue is less about what he did, and more about the questionable decisions he made in his personal life. Make questionable decisions in your personal life means you have a high probability of doing so in your professional life. And so he did, using Secret Service agents / police to run cover for him while on trysts - that's jeopardizing his being and the Nation's security - that's the tip of the iceberg. There's a laundry list on that guy, don't take my word for it.

The word 'hallowed' means sacred. As in a cemetery or a church. The White House is the residence of the President of the United States, nothing more.

And you prove my point about Bill Clinton. So he did those things. So what? You think that Lyndon Johnson and John Kennedy and Dwight Eisenhower and any other number of men didn't do the same thing? And what does that have to do with any of the current crop of candidates for the presidency? Not much.

And further, who cares what Bush has done during his presidency, either personally or in terms of his foreign policy? It's clear that he's made a number of foreign policy mistakes, but they are not reversible, so why argue about them? The point is that we need to have a strategy from this point forward, and throwing in a random 'Clinton did this' doesn't help matters.

If we are looking at that kind of stuff, we are looking backwards, not forwards. Personally I happen to think that we're at a political crossroads, as a nation, and that we need to look forwards, ignoring the 'wrapper' that any particular candidate has been wrapped in by the media, and that we should be focused on listening to ideas and letting go of the dogma that has captivated our attention thus far.

But....enough. None of us are foolish enough to think that we are going to convince anyone else of the merits of our political arguments on an automotive forum, are we?

I kind of feel like this thread has run its' course, and if Mike hadn't started it I probably would be petitioning for him to lock it already.

So....can we get back to talking about Z's?

[Darrel]

I think hillary has the widest stance.

[twsutt]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!IRAQ DIDNT CAUSE SEPTEMBER 11TH!!!!!!!!!!!

Osama bin laden did who is a member of al-queda who wasnt in iraq untill AFTER we invaded iraq. Yet osama still roams freely.

True.

But we're not in Iraq because of September 11th. Our Government has never claimed that Iraq was responsible for the attacks of September 11th.

[rdefabri]

The word 'hallowed' means sacred. As in a cemetery or a church. The White House is the residence of the President of the United States, nothing more.

Defined as by Webster's it means "holy" or "sacred". But, it can be used to identify certain things based on their importance or symbolism. Since many of our founding fathers supported the creation and building of the White House, and as John Adams (first President to reside there) wrote - " pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this House, and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof." Many important people that helped form this great nation walked those halls - the list, IMHO, is awe inspiring. So is it "hallowed" as a church? No, you are correct. Is it "hallowed" as a symbol of the brave men and women who died so that we could live free? Absolutely...

If we are looking at that kind of stuff, we are looking backwards, not forwards.

On this we agree - I started to type as much in my response. I really don't care anymore that Clinton did what he did - it's past and it's over. I was making the point that in general, both civilian and in Government, we've become apathetic about what we have and how we got here.

So....can we get back to talking about Z's?

Amen.

[BRE-240Z]

Many important people that helped form this great nation walked those halls - the list, IMHO, is awe inspiring.

It's a little less awe-inspiring, when you consider the current resident....

[twsutt]

It's a little less awe-inspiring, when you consider the current resident....

...try the last few residents.

[dade280]

I wonder if any president had a Z.

[EScanlon]

I kind of feel like this thread has run its' course, and if Mike hadn't started it I probably would be petitioning for him to lock it already.

So....can we get back to talking about Z's?

Bryan, these kind of statements are exactly what causes problems with this type of discussion.

YOU feel this thread has run it's course and YOU would impose YOUR desire that it be locked so that nobody else could continue discussing it.

I'm not trying to flame you, I'm only pointing out that it is that specific attitude that causes the problems with this type of discussion.

If you do not feel like discussing it....then don't click on the thread. You're more than welcome to continue discussing Z's in the numerous other threads that have been continuing while this thread has been posted and being posted to. Most people in the other threads both / either - ignore it, or don't care to post, but they aren't petitioning for it to be stopped.

Just like the "Boobs" thread, if it would offend you to read/see the posts, surely the title of "What's wrong with the US Senate?" would be a huge red flag that the discussion would be political and controversial, possibly even argumentative.

Suppressing discussion is a way of squelching ideas and a form of oppression.

The freedom inherent in the Constitution of the US, and other country's Constitutions, who have taken and from whom the ideas for the Constitution were taken from, all share the concept of dissent and the freedom to discuss change. The right to defend itself from attack is separate from the right to work within the system to effect that change. This means that discussion is permitted, while active sedition is not.

Car clubs both in person and on-line, exist not only because of the shared interest in a car. They are also because people can get along and/or at least tolerate one another. It's when you start attacking individuals and their individual beliefs that the discussion can get too controversial and must be locked down....to stop the fracas that could destroy an otherwise good group.

The discussion has so far been civil, let's keep the personalized attacks out of it and this comment, again, is NOT one.

2¢

E

[BRE-240Z]

The discussion has so far been civil, let's keep the personalized attacks out of it and this comment, again, is NOT one.

I would be willing to bet that RJ doesn't feel like I 'attacked' him. We discussed our points of view, and in my mind we came to a point of agreement. That's how the process works, you see, when people are reasonable and passionate and open-minded at the same time....and that's exactly what this country needs, only it needs it from people who are already in the power structure, and not two guys talking on a car bulletin board.

I don't think that the thread should be locked just because I 'made my point', I only said that because I don't feel like this is the proper forum for this discussion. Other members have stated the same opinion, quite a bit more eloquently than I have....I didn't want to get the conversation started in the first place, but once it did and took off I felt like someone should present an opposing viewpoint.

Enrique, I don't know what I've done to annoy you so greatly, other than to 'exist' at the other end of the political spectrum. It doesn't bother me that you think differently than I do, so why should it bother you? You are entitled to your viewpoint, so am I....and that's something that's guaranteed by THE PEOPLE, a power that is greater than that of the President of the United States.

Personally I think that the schism that exists between the parties in this country is not helpful, and demonizing one party or the other is part of the problem. It makes people feel superior, I see it all the time. I mean, watch the 'news' programs on television, as people with opposing viewpoints try to shout over each other. But that kind of 'certainty' and dogmatic approach to the issues in this country doesn't solve problems, it only creates them.

[Montezuma]

I have an opinion but I always added a Z angle to my posts. Just so as to keep it Z focused. The question was asked if any president ever had a Z....my guess is no, none were cool enough to ever drive one.

[EScanlon]

Bryan;

You've mistaken my post. I'm not attacking you specifically as much as the general idea of "locking the thread" to squelch further discussion.

I'm not against what you have stated, either previous to my post or after. In fact, I agree with some of the things you have said, except locking the thread.

Whether this is or isn't the proper forum is again another point where I do and don't agree with you. Many topics are never discussed because too many people are concerned with upsetting someone. Too many times people of like minds, as a car club may be wont to be, could and would find a common venue by which to rally around...if only they could discuss it. Then again, I don't think this is the proper place to discuss the Federal government taking Christmas day off but not Hanukah or Kwanza or NOT taking any of them as holidays.

The situation in California is a good example of a conversation that would merit being held here. Higher taxes or car plate fees because your car is older and is presumed to be more of a pollutant than a newer car? Seems to me that a purely electric vehicle would then NOT have to pay taxes or plate fees...heck might even qualify for a rebate. But that's not what the intent of the bill is...it's simply another way of nickel and dime-ing the people of California for yet another tax. Seems like an isolated incident? Not according to Oregon's Governor, nor Washington's. They're looking into it. And the rest of the country needs to be careful....it could happen in your neck of the woods.

Can we discuss that kind of thing here? Hopefully we could....but we can't if people insist that this forum should not allow that type of discussion. We also can't if people insist on demeaning the various points of view in personal attacks.

I'm also not annoyed with you or anyone else.

People with opposing viewpoints have always tried to "shout down" each other, in hopes of drowing out any opposition. You're right that this does not produce solutions....that's why I objected to "locking down the thread".

FWIW

E

[BRE-240Z]

I have an opinion but I always added a Z angle to my posts. Just so as to keep it Z focused. The question was asked if any president ever had a Z....my guess is no, none were cool enough to ever drive one.

I'd like to know who the last president to actually drive his own car was....my guess is that it's been a long time.

These people are supposed to be an extension of the people's will, but they haven't been living in the 'real world' for a very long time.

I was listening to NPR this morning, and they were talking about some of the 'real people' who have been a part of the candidate's stump speeches. Hillary Clinton keeps referring to this waitress who works two jobs in a small town, and whose restaurant she visited. Iowa? New Hampshire? I can't remember. But anyway, Clinton had lunch in her restaurant, and talked to this waitress who is having a tough time making ends meet, and keeps using her as an example in her speeches on the campaign trail.

The kicker? Clinton ate lunch, which was provided free of charge by the restaurant's owner, and then didn't leave a tip.