Ok, here is the poll!

[Bambikiller240]

<snipped>

I thought that requiring a replacement part to listed in the Nissan Fiche for a specific model would have made it very clear what I am talking about. Lots of Genuine Nissan parts will fit, but only a few were superceeded with new Nissan part numbers within Nissans' Dealer parts list. There are no aftermarketparts listed in the Nissan Fiche as authorized and supplied by this club . If you go to the dealer to buy a new front crossmember for a late 240Z, (assuming the dealer does not have an original piece in stock, and has to order it from Nissan, you will not get the part number listed on the line out of the parts fiche for a '73 240z, You will get a part number listed on a line corresponding to a later model, but indicated as a proper and acceptable replacement for the 73 as well. Those parts listed in the Nissan Fiche are the only parts I am talking about. The only standard used in this thread is the parts must be called for the model in question in the Nissan parts fiche. I believe that I gave you my point of view on this.

Carl, I am looking for your view, not someone elses. I want to know what Carl thinks, not what the ZCCA thinks.

Will

I believe that I gave my point of view on this, but here it is again:

Whatever Nissan considers an acceptable (supercedure) part doesn't matter at all ! ! ! What determines the gain or loss in value is the marketplace. What the hell does my opinion (or any other individual persons opinion) have to do what what the value is? If the fact that Nissan supercedes a part to another retains the value of a car, then why do people pay $1300 for "D" wheel covers when they could get "Z" covers for a lot less? Same for the little plastic latch piece for the Inspection Doors that sold for $250. Why not just buy later Inspection doors for $50 a set and call it a day? How about the Choke handle? The console? Steering wheel (with or without cutouts)? What about Hatch glass? Is glass with a demister an acceptable replacement part of the early glass without demister? It would certainly lose points in a competition, and IMO would reduce the legitimacy of the car as an "original" 1970 240Z.

As for ZCCA, a car that is graded highly (in STOCK class) will be more valuable than one that is graded lower (in the same class). Why?

1. Because there are so few similar cars in existance.

2. Because the "correct" parts that made up the car are so hard to find and expensive.

Isn't the ZCAA judging criteria the acknowledged standard for Z cars in the USA? If not what is? Or are you saying that there is no standard, and thus the ZCAA and everyone else who judges Z cars are not legitimate?

IMO the answer to the poll is obvious to anyone who shops for an "original" Z car, or understands the meaning of "restored" as defined in the dictionary, and in ZCCA judging.

[EScanlon]

After talking to a friend of mine who had a lot of involvement with the Barret Jackson auction and yet another big name auction (whose name escapes me at the moment), I find that I must modify my prior post.

It turns out that there ARE deductions in STOCK CONCOURS that would not apply in other classes. The bare fact was that if the part or part number if visible on the part, was not the one that would have come with that car, a deduction gets taken.

That means that "Replaced By" or superseeded part numbers would in fact devalue a STOCK CONCOURS class vehicle, but not necessarily one of the lower classes.

I apologize to all in that what I know of the Concours classes is so muddled with "barracks lawyering" that it led me astray.

Personally, I'm more interested in driving my car and having it look as good as possible. Since I have custom wheels, dash, heater control panel, seat reclining mechanism, louvers, headlight covers and "angel eye" headlights, I won't be in any competition for originality or authenticity for a long time. Even though the items I have added, would have been considered a customiization and therefore "period authentic", I realize and know that it isn't a Concours contender.

Enrique

[Bambikiller240]

..............Personally, I'm more interested in driving my car and having it look as good as possible. Since I have custom wheels, dash, heater control panel, seat reclining mechanism, louvers, headlight covers and "angel eye" headlights, I won't be in any competition for originality or authenticity for a long time...........

Exactly how I feel.

[hls30.com]

Carl,

I knew you answered the question. I didn't ask you to answer it again. I just pointed out that all I was after was your answer. That said, I enjoyed reading your answer again, and I still agree with it.

I am more worried with getting the car to my standards than anyone elses. But the answer to the question and the way I want my car are not mutually exclusive. I can agree with a deffinition, and not feel it is relevant to a situation. The strict verbage of the question was in relation to the word "authenticity" and the original condition and aggregation of parts, and delivery of a car by the Nissan Corporation.

I do not want an authentic car, I want a enjoyable car. That is why my car will have the hatch glass with vertical defrosters, JDM headlight covers, an aftermarket audio system, a L28et, GM engine management, and a "2400" Valve cover-among other things. My car will be exactly what I want it to be- but it will not be authentic.

Will

[hls30.com]

Alfadoag,

The parts that are superceeded by Nissan are usually similar, but not identical. They generally have been changed for one of several reasons:

1)Economies in manufacturing-it is cheeper to make one part that fits two cars. It is also cheeper to change tooling once than change each one of 5000 or more parts.

2) A parts subcontractor is replaced and there is anoticeable difference in the equivalent part from another source.

3) Conformation to legislation mandates a change in the parts-big bumpers!

4) A deficiency is found in the design of a part-headlight buckets form composit to steel.

5) A manager could get laid for making a change-nookie(or the lack there of) can make almost anything happen. Just making sure you weren't sleeping...

Anyway, ther are several reasons for a change in part numbers, and most of them would be cause for a design revision, which usually does alter visual appearance.

Will

[bpilati]

"Factory" interchangeable may be Nissan, but not designated for that model Z. A 280Z engine or transmission in a 240Z is not authentic. Actually a 73 transmission in a 71 is not authentic unless the part # is the same. That's the purest approach. Now as far as I'm concerned, they're both 240Z transmissions. Rear vents on the hatch of a late 71 240Z is not authentic. Horizontal defogger on a 70-71 is not authentic. The only way I think you could get by is if the part was no longer available or Nissan officially substituted a later part for an earlier model Z (e.g., Upper shift boot).

[hls30.com]

Bryan,

"The only way I think you could get by is if the part was no longer available or Nissan officially substituted a later part for an earlier model Z (e.g., Upper shift boot)."

That is exactly what I was describing in the question.

If the Nissan Factory supplied microfiche shows an interchange, then that part is useable. If the parts happens to fit, but is not listed in the fiche as an authorized replacement-that is not what the question was dealing with.

Evidently I was to enthusiastic about the question, and not diligent enough when phrasing the question...

Will

[Bambikiller240]

It still wouldn't be an "authentic 1970 or correct part". It is my belief that Nissan makes these parts available as "substitute parts" that will "function in place of the original partr."

I don't believe Nissan blesses these later parts in holy water and makes them "original" to earlier cars. No other manufacturer does, why would Nissan? And who would care if they did? The Collecter car market judges originality by it's own standards.

Nissan isn't the one to judge originality (they build & sell cars and couldn't be bothered with originality issues; otherwise they would still be supplying the correct parts).

[hls30.com]

i agree, if it doesn't have the parts Nissan sent it from the factory with, it is not 100% authentic, but...

If the story about Mr. K. pulling off the fairlady emblems is true...

Hmmmmm...

Will

[Bambikiller240]

I don't know how that plays out.

But, I wonder if that story is really true, and if so; how many cars was that done to? A handful? The first 50, 100, 500, 1000?

What I really wonder is how apprx 70% of respondents to the poll have it wrong? (IMO) What could possibly be their justification?

[hls30.com]

I don't know either, But I must take some credit there, evidently the verbage I used to ask the question was confusing to a good many people. If I defined authentic, there would be no reason for the poll.

Will

[Bambikiller240]

I don't know either, But I must take some credit there, evidently the verbage I used to ask the question was confusing to a good many people. If I defined authentic, there would be no reason for the poll.

Will

I don't know. "Authentic" isn't the word that makes the difference for me. Once the word "restoration" was in the sentence, (IMO) the answer could only be one way. Without the word "restoration", I would vote differently. It wouldn't affect authenticity (or value.) the car would still be Genuine Nissan or Datsun.

re·store ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-stôr, -str)

tr.v. re·stored, re·stor·ing, re·stores

1. To bring back into existence or use; reestablish: restore law and order.

2. To bring back to an original condition: restore a building. See Synonyms at revive.

3. To put (someone) back in a former position: restore the emperor to the throne.

4.To make restitution of; give back: restore the stolen funds.