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Future of driving a "classic" car

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The climate issue has become urgent. It's really hard to get people to pay attention about what is going to happen 20 or 40 years from now.  But if we don't prioritize the climate situation, we're going to have millions of refugees flooding in to all parts of the world from flooding coastal areas, which are generally highly populated.  And the US isn't immune; one estimate is that more than 99 percent of today’s population in 252 coastal towns and cities would have their homes submerged by 2050 if we had an (extreme prediction) 10-foot water level increase. 1,300 square miles of land lie less than 3 feet above the high tide line in California, Oregon and Washington.  I think we all know that much of Florida is at risk, and so areas in CA, MA, NY...you name it. 120 square miles of land lie less than 6 feet above the high tide line in New York. 285 square miles of land lies less than 5 feet above the high tide line in New Jersey. 30% of the total property value sitting on land below 5 ft, falls within just Atlantic City, Ocean City and Beach Haven.

Forbes was the source of that info, although there's not much info about the statistics: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimdobson/2019/10/30/shocking-new-maps-show-how-sea-level-rise-will-destroy-coastal-cities-by-2050/?sh=2bff534e456c

Buzzfeed even has a site that will let you check where you live for risk of tidal flooding: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zahrahirji/climate-change-map-homes-flooding

Edited by Pilgrim

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Here's some humor, regarding the extremes of the labels.

Who in society is the most ultra conservative, taking absolutely no help from government?  A homeless person.  They should be role models, something to aspire to.

And, Elon Musk is the ultimate troll.  He got the richest most conservative conservatives to drive electric cars (actually I can't prove this I just assumed it.  But that's how things are done these days, although I am 99% sure that Elon Musk is an ultra conservative.  So maybe he's actually trolling the "progressives" and making money from them).  How can that be?  And now he's selling solar panels.  Why? Just burn the natural gas.  There's enough to last years.

https://www.tesla.com/

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Edited by Zed Head

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11 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

And the US isn't immune; one estimate is that more than 99 percent of today’s population in 252 coastal towns and cities would have their homes submerged by 2050 if we had an (extreme prediction) 10-foot water level increase. 

DC8 is saying that he doesn't believe this.  And he has a point.  How do we know what to believe?  But, that is also the tool that the current administration is trying to use to stay in power.  Making everything seem unbelievable until people just give up and listen to the guy that says he'll take care of everything.  

In the end people just have to do their own homework, and decide what to believe.  Which is really supposed to be the core of a democracy, the sum of the individual views and decisions.  Nobody should be believing something just because they saw it on the internet or TV channel.  Mass media has always been about manipulating people, to buy the goods that they're selling through advertising.

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Instilling fear of "something" and instilling the belief that "someone (egotistical, charismatic leader) and an egotistical group (pick one) has the ONLY answer is the basis of mind control to gain and retain power. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

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14 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

252 coastal towns and cities would have their homes submerged by 2050 if

So this prediction is better put together than the one Gore put together for 2010?

In your quote above, the key words will be (Would) and (IF).

The reason the divide other than "follow the money" aspect of changing climate, is the crystal ball aspect of it. The only thing we know that will happen about climate change is the massive tax burden that will be put upon the citizens and freedoms lost. Poor nations will get this money, and the corrupt governments will do nothing with it. I have been all over the world and not just garden stops, and have seen first hand the division between governments and its people.

Boondoggle, theres no other term that fits, well maybe robbery.

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Hey friends, there's lots of "if" attached to  climate and temperature changes.  My point is simply that the consequences are severe, and now is the time to be serious about addressing them because the payoffs are down the road but are quite real. There are considerable benefits to all of us if we can change trends that make weather more extreme. 

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We can wait and see what happens or learn to swim.  Like with COVID and the places that are waiting until it's too late then just suffering through the situation that they could have avoided.  Similar thinking, different time frames.  The scientists have been right.

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The scientists aren't always right though.  Anyone remember "peak oil theory"?  Gas prices are supposed to be so high now due to limited supply that we all want electric vehicles just so we can afford to get around.

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Stringent regulations on classic cars would be one of the last boxes to check along the logical progression in the war on climate change. As someone said earlier, classic cars are a very small percentage of cars on the road. There are far bigger problems that would need to be assessed first, and to regulate classic cars right off the bat would be like spraying a burning house with a water hose thinking it'll make a difference, or to restore a crumbling building firstly by painting it, that way you at least won't notice the deteriorating walls. The only reason I can imagine classic cars would be regulated prematurely is so a politician can look like they're making a difference or an effort when in reality they hardly accomplished anything substantial. At any rate, I live in a small town where large trucks blow out black smoke (roll coal) and while this, too, is a minor problem in the grand scheme of climate change, it is marginally bigger than classic cars. I'll begin to worry we're next once these trucks are put under the political and ecological microscope. Until then, I'm more worried about ethanol ruining my car than I am about the government regulating it.

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Agreed, classic and collectible cars are not significant contributors to climate issues. There aren't enough of them to matter, and they aren't being driven 10-20,000 miles per year. 

The availability and price of gas is much more likely to become an issue. As with most things, gas is only going to get more expensive. However, there's such a large installed base of gasoline-based vehicles that I don't foresee a supply problem in the next decade or two. The faster electric vehicles come on, the sooner gas production will become an issue. 

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So why should we have environmental restrictions in the US that they don't impose in other countries? Someone answered that question earlier... "US, Europe are the cleanest on the planet, and have improved drastically."

Sounds like if you want to live in the cleanest part of the world, you have to work at it and pay for it. If you allow a free-for-all with no restrictions, you get what people are complaining about in other parts of the world. There are compromises between many competing priorities that have to be made in order to enjoy the benefits.

And I agree with several of the posters above when it comes to classic cars. I have zero fear that there will be restrictions on my use of my classic Z that would hamper my use of it.

I'm not alarmist. I'm not worried about my Z.

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5 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

The availability and price of gas is much more likely to become an issue. As with most things, gas is only going to get more expensive. However, there's such a large installed base of gasoline-based vehicles that I don't foresee a supply problem in the next decade or two. The faster electric vehicles come on, the sooner gas production will become an issue. 

You make an interesting point, but I don't see gas availability or taxation becoming a problem even in our lifetimes. In order for the government to ween us off of gasoline, everything that relies on gas  must become electric - that includes boats, cars, bikes, and, most importantly semis (lorries for the Europeans). In such a case, we'd see gasoline transition from an essential consumer commodity to a luxury item. If it were a luxury item, then they could tax the dog wizz out of it like cigarettes, weed, and booze. But, even then, the government would have to be comfortable enough to make such an egregious decision knowing they won't wizz off the whole nation and, more importantly, Wall Street. A government's laws ought to represent the sensibilities of its people, and most people like their gasoline cars, or are otherwise impartial. Also, most of our society own gasoline powered cars, and therefore have a vested interest in the supply of gas. To cut us off would not fly well - nobody anytime soon would vote for someone who runs on a platform which conspires to suffocate petrol cars, and no politician is dumb enough to champion such an ideal (except maybe an extremist or third party politician would, but they'll never win anyways). It's only when the majority of US citizens daily drive electric cars,  and no longer see their gas engine as a necessity that 'gas as a luxury' will become a reality. At that point though, I hope I'm long dead.

Lastly, and most importantly, the global economy runs on gasoline, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Planes, freight ships, and semis need gas, and if gas is phased out, how will international commerce continue? Maybe the government will pitch it as, "gas is a necessity for commercial use, not private use (i.e. cars)." And if that's their argument, and the American people are dumb enough to buy that half assed reason as a means to save the penguins, then I really hope I'm dead.

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Well, I can comment about this, but it will sound like the setup for a dystopian novel.

So here goes.....

There are people who think oil will last forever; I have spoken to them and marveled at how resistant to reality they are. The fact is, oil is a finite resource. I've often wondered if the US really, truly wants to hurry and deplete its oil supply, because when oil starts to run out, I expect a major world war to be fought over the remaining oil.  (Very dystopian, right??) At that point, it would be a lot better for the US to have the remaining supply than to be one of the outsiders trying to get at it.

But no, we need to tap our oil as fast and as thoroughly as possible, which at some remote time will leave us totally dependent on other countries for oil, IF (and this is a big IF) oil is still the most standard energy source at that time. It sure would make more sense for us to transition away from oil well before that happens.

The bad news is that there's a basic truth: oil will run out IF we keep using it.

So if you don't want to have a dystopian novel on your hands, it makes perfect sense to pursue electricity, solar, hydrogen, fusion energy, and wireless transmission of energy through the radio spectrum.

Part II (or alternative scenario) of that little situation springs from the scarcity of rare metals and their critical use in all kinds of electrical battery packs. (This is real, and is A Thing even today!) Just as an aside, the US has very few of the rare metals that are needed for those batteries that we currently use in cell phones and other portable devices.  I could easily set up a different dystopian novel around the fight for access to the rare metals needed to support the use of electronic devices and transportation, and that novel could be set in the next 30 years.

Now that I've ruined your day with the setup for two dystopian novels about prophesized world war, I'll go have my second cup of coffee. Maybe that will cheer me up.

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4 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

I could easily set up a different dystopian novel around the fight for access to the rare metals needed to support the use of electronic devices and transportation, and that novel could be set in the next 30 years.

That's one of the reasons why we're heading back to the moon,  despite the agreements that were signed 60 yrs ago about no country claiming mineral rights or territory on the moon, you can bet your life that if a cost effective way is found there will be mining.

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@Pilgrim Good argument, I had completely forgotten that fossil fuels will inevitably run out. Oil is projected to run out in something like fifty years I read if we continue at the rate we do. When the reservoir is alarmingly low, I can't imagine how the world is going to adapt. It'll force the governments' hands, sure, but what they'll do is beyond me. I'd be interested to know what entities consume the most gas - is it the conglomeration of all gas burning cars, or everything industrial such as shipping vehicles? Consumers shifting to renewable resources seems a whole lot more feasible than industries. I just don't have enough faith in the US, China, or India beginning the shift before they absolutely have to. Too much money's involved. Who knows though, maybe technology will advance enough that renewable resources are so widely available, it wouldn't make sense not to use them. Funny, when it's all said and done, the only thing left green on this Earth will be a US dollar bill. 

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In the meantime, I need to finish the sound deadening in my 280ZX while the weather permits driving!!  😎

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took my z out and burned some gas, pumped out some carbon, and loved every minute of it. 75 mile round trip so I could feed some tree rats some pecans, harvested no doubt by some huge combine like machine. Now going to change the engine oil after 2500 miles cause it looks a bit brown.

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And I put a furry blue sour cream container in the trash can today that I should have recycled. @Dave WM and I are clearly wildmen living the American dream!!

In my own defense, out of the corner of my eye, I think I saw it move under it's own power. I didn't want to stick anything in it to clean it out.

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AD-GRAPHIC-Golden-Asteroid-ARTICLE.thumb.jpg.91633c51a5991e4e0a38ac5c4c2a4cca.jpg


Imagine what that would do to the price of precious metals if it was possible to get a fraction of it to earth!!?

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The running out of oil prediction has a few flaws in its logic. Sure it’s a finite resource and peak oil was predicted to occur between 1965 and 1970. Since then we have found new reserves and the bell curve keeps sliding right. If we continue to use oil unabated like we are then sure one day it will be gone, 50 or 100 years nobody really know but this isn’t the whole story and how the law of supply and demand work. The last barrel of oil will be the most expensive barrel by far but that won’t happen for likely hundreds of years and may never happen. Oil is used in the manner it is because the cost per amount of stored energy is unsurpassed. The US for the first time since maybe the 50’s has become the worlds largest oil producer and no longer dependent of foreign oil. A national security blessing. As oil becomes harder to find the find prices will go up more and more. At some point it no longer becomes the best back for the buck and people will use an cheaper alternatives. When a gallon of gas is $75 you’ll stop driving your Z. That’s when I call Captain Obvious (have him on speed dial) and figure out how we retro fit my Z with an old Tesla motor. Nobody will want or need that last barrel of oil because it will be obsolete and outrageously expensive. I don’t think I’ll see this in my lifetime but who knows. For sure my kids will have make this transition. Until then enjoy your Z on the open roads of America or Europe.


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Agreed, the thing regulating oil usage will be price, and the time is in view when that will happen. The problem occurs if the price doesn't rise consistently and gradually enough to prompt and fund development of other energy sources *and* the infrastructure to distribute them, as well as shift the design of the automotive fleet.

IMO it's a big mistake of the US not to have taxes which create oil prices similar to those in Europe, but of course we know why that hasn't happened. Gas prices are artificially depressed to keep the population happy, and I admit I'm one of those who benefit.

If gas was $5 a gallon (it's currently averaging $5.79 a gallon in Great Britain) there would be a shift in driving habits immediately.  The additional billions could be put to work developing those alternative energy sources and distribution infrastructure.

That's not going to happen in the US for political reasons until we're up against the wall. Whether that will be in time to shift the infrastructure and vehicles is open to question.

Edited by Pilgrim
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