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Hey everyone, I have been a long time lurker on many forums and I have decided to post some questions because I am at the point where I believe I need guidance on next steps and want to make the right decision. The car I am working on is a 78 280z California Car. It is not my car, it is my parents car that I bought them as a gift 10 years ago. It has been a long time since I have driven the car so I don’t recall its characteristics but it always had a presence of fuel smell in the exhaust. The car was parked because the fuel smell and rough driving started getting worse. The car then sat for a year and a half and now its time to get it back up and running. All the items addressed have been done within the past four months.

Disclaimer: There is a lot of information here and if I am unclear on anything please let me know. I am trying to get some conversations going and wanted to put my best foot forward.

Symptoms

  • Bogging/hesitation/stuttering under any load to the point where the car can’t be driven, can’t emphasize this enough.

  • Car idles immaculately

  • Backfiring through the AFM

  • Fuel smell through exhaust

Current State

  • Timing: 10° BTDC

  • Idle: 800 RPM

  • Aftermarket exhaust header and muffler

  • EGR deleted

  • Air regulator removed

  • Coldstart injector still on rail but disconnected electronically

  • Thermotime switch disconnected electronically

Items that have been addressed

  • Spark:

    • New Plugs (NGK at .039in gap)

    • New Wires (NGK)

    • New Coil (MSD Blaster)

    • Rebuilt ZX distributor (RockAuto)

      • Vacuum advance confirmed working

      • New Cap

      • New Rotor

  • Fuel:

    • New fuel injector connectors

    • Injectors reconditioned from Fuel Injection Services (confirmed working)

    • New Walbro 255 fuel pump

    • Tank removed and checked for rust

    • Fuel hard lines cleared with compressed air

    • New fuel filters (pre and post pump)

    • Inline gauge added between filter and rail

  • Air:

    • AFM has been calibrated per atlanticZcar site rebuild guide

      • Bench tested for smooth sweep (open to close)

      • Calibrated spring force with water weights

    • New PCV valve

  • Engine:

    • Valves adjusted to:

      • Intake: .008in

      • Exhaust: .010in

    • TDC mark confirmed correct on main pulley

    • Distributer shaft confirmed 11:25 position

    • Leakdown test performed

    • Compression test performed

  • Electrical:

    • New coolant sensor

    • New coolant sensor connector

    • New TPS wiring connector

    • Contacts cleaned with deoxit

    • ECU Harness tested in car to EFI Bible specifications

Results

Leak down and compression test performed cold because the vehicle was not running at the time.

image.png

The AFM sweep was performed using a 9VDC battery and an arduino. I did two sweeps of the door by hand as smooth and slow as possible. The third sweep I intentionally pulsed the door through the sweep motion by hand to see if something else would happen. I did not see any signs of a bad circuit.

image.png

The FSM provides a table relating resistance to temperature for the air temperature sensor and coolant temperature sensor. I generated a chart using this data in both °C(Blue) and °F(Orange). The trend is not linear so a polynomial trend(Thin Orange) was generated so I could plug in a measured value to determine a temperature. The table also provides acceptable ranges within specific temperatures so I added error bars to show this acceptable range. The test environment(Green and Yellow circle) was what the temperature should be and the measured (pink) value was within the error bar at that condition.

image.png

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I went through the circuit testing per the FSM and found nothing alarming.

image.png

Observations

Advancing the timing beyond the timing marks helps but doesn’t resolve the overall issue. Timing at 10° makes the car impossible to drive. Timing at 25°-30° makes it bearable but only above 30% throttle.

Future State

I have worked through what I believe to be the cheapest items to inspect and now believe it is time to find a new AFM and ECU set. Everything appears to be correct and by the book. Should I try to find a 78 280z ECU/AFM for a CA car, or should I find one for any 280z car (non CA). I have toyed with going standalone because at this point I am tired of poking around in the dark trying to troubleshoot this car. I need some assistance from people who have experience with the FI systems on these cars and I don't know anyone locally to reach out to. If I am unclear on something, please ask and I will provide.

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I'll let the smart members read all the charts but when my '77 had very similar problems I was able to fix it for a $5 volume knob from Radio Shack.  Mine ran like crap up to about 2,500RPM then pull really good.  Here's where i got the idea.  Many have done this so hopefully they can offer better advice.

http://atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/tempsensorpot/index.html

I think you'll need the thermotine sensor to function.  That could be the reason for the rich exhaust fumes.

 

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39 minutes ago, kinser86 said:

78 280z California Car.

Symptoms

  • Bogging/hesitation/stuttering under any load to the point where the car can’t be driven, can’t emphasize this enough.

  • Car idles immaculately

  • Backfiring through the AFM

  • Fuel smell through exhaust

 

  • Fuel:

    Inline gauge added between filter and rail
  • Air:

    • AFM has been calibrated per atlanticZcar site rebuild guide

      • Bench tested for smooth sweep (open to close)

      • Calibrated spring force with water weights

    •  

O. Should I try to find a 78 280z ECU/AFM for a CA car, or should I find one for any 280z car (non CA). I have toyed with going standalone because at this point I am tired of poking around in the dark trying to troubleshoot this car. I need some assistance from people who have experience with the FI systems on these cars and I don't know anyone locally to reach out to. If I am unclear on something, please ask and I will provide.

Wow, that is some diagnostic work.  Did you mark the starting points on your AFM "calibration".  I love the atlanticz site but some of the things on there are not actual factory procedures, but things extrapolated from educated guesses.  The calibration procedure was developed by examining a "known good" AFM and assuming that all AFM's should be like that one.  It might not be right.

I don't see fuel pressure readings although you do have a gauge.

Your symptoms, the popping through the AFM,  have been solved by many of us by adding the "AFM tweak", or potentiometer, to the coolant temperature sensor circuit.  It's described n the atlanticz site also.  I would set your AFM back to the starting point and try the potentiometer.  Something about today's fuel or a general degradation of the AFM circuitry causes much popping and backfiring with 280Z's.

Welcome to the forum.

I see that siteunseen has replied, He mighht be suggesting the smae.

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1 hour ago, siteunseen said:

I'll let the smart members read all the charts but when my '77 had very similar problems I was able to fix it for a $5 volume knob from Radio Shack.  Mine ran like crap up to about 2,500RPM then pull really good.  Here's where i got the idea.  Many have done this so hopefully they can offer better advice.

http://atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/tempsensorpot/index.html

I think you'll need the thermotine sensor to function.  That could be the reason for the rich exhaust fumes.

The charts might be overkill, but just trying to throw what I have learned up there to see if anyone else has seen the same thing.

From what I read about the thermotime switch is that it is just an open/close type switch that closes the circuit to the cold start valve. After start, it should not impact the enrichment.

image.png

image.png

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

Wow, that is some diagnostic work.  Did you mark the starting points on your AFM "calibration".  I love the atlanticz site but some of the things on there are not actual factory procedures, but things extrapolated from educated guesses.  The calibration procedure was developed by examining a "known good" AFM and assuming that all AFM's should be like that one.  It might not be right.

Thanks, I have been trying to cover my bases and I have seen countless of FI threads with no data supporting any decisions and people ultimately getting pointed back to the EFI bible. I did mark the AFM, ended up adjusting 6 teeth clockwise to achieve 145mL water weights. I can always move it back but the car is acting exactly the same prior to adjustments.

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

I don't see fuel pressure readings although you do have a gauge.

I need to get the numbers again now that the reconditioned injectors are in the car. They were within spec and even evaluated with the FPR off but I will get numbers next time I am next to the car for diagnostic record purposes.

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

Your symptoms, the popping through the AFM,  have been solved by many of us by adding the "AFM tweak", or potentiometer, to the coolant temperature sensor circuit.  It's described n the atlanticz site also.  I would set your AFM back to the starting point and try the potentiometer.  Something about today's fuel or a general degradation of the AFM circuitry causes much popping and backfiring with 280Z's.

I have read about this tweak but have always felt it is a band aid to another problem. I ultimately tried taking the car back to zero without any modifications other than some components to see if anything would go away.

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks, I hope to bring more to the forum than my pain and suffering... eventually. 🙂 

I really want to learn from others experience so I appreciate all the help. If I am wrong about something please correct me! I enjoy how easy it is to support replies with images in this forum, it has made things a lot easier for me. 🙂 

Edited by kinser86
typo

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1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

Your symptoms, the popping through the AFM,  have been solved by many of us by adding the "AFM tweak", or potentiometer, to the coolant temperature sensor circuit.  It's described n the atlanticz site also.  I would set your AFM back to the starting point and try the potentiometer.  Something about today's fuel or a general degradation of the AFM circuitry causes much popping and backfiring with 280Z's.

All I can do is repeat the above.  I don't think you can get back to "zero" without going back to 1978 and using 1978 fuel formulations with a new 1978 AFM.  One without 40 years of age.  I bought a new MSA AFM and it does run richer than any of the old AFM's I tried.  So, that might be a "back to zero" option, if you want to spend the money.  But the AFM tweak will tell you more about if it's going to work.  Think of the AFM tweak as a diagnostic tool.  Adjusting your AFM would be considered a band-aid by many members.  It was glued to where the factory set it, wasn't it?  Did you break the glue blobs?

You can get your fuel pressure by just running the fuel pump without the engine running.

Generally, though, your popping symptoms are signs of a lean mixture.  So fuel pressure, AFM, and vacuum leaks are where you want to look.  Good luck.

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And from all I've read the fuel tweak corrects the ECU's OHMZ or resistance? to the coolant sensor. 

When you've got an extra hour this thread is a good read and might light a bulb in your head.

https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/37549-purs-like-a-kitten/

 

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Check your fuel pressure inline with a gauge between the filter and the rail, verify that it can maintain 35+ psi when loaded up. I've had your same symptom before with 0 psi in the rail. I had no clue how it was idling (possibly secondary source through the charcoal canister...?), but it would sound healthy as a horse until you tried to drive it, then fall flat on its face. To make sure the gauge wasnt broken I used clear vinyl tubing on both sides and sure enough, the air bubbles in there would remain stagnant, yet it would idle until I shut it off.

And of course check for vacuum leaks, etc

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1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

All I can do is repeat the above.  I don't think you can get back to "zero" without going back to 1978 and using 1978 fuel formulations with a new 1978 AFM.  One without 40 years of age.  I bought a new MSA AFM and it does run richer than any of the old AFM's I tried.  So, that might be a "back to zero" option, if you want to spend the money.  But the AFM tweak will tell you more about if it's going to work.  Think of the AFM tweak as a diagnostic tool.  Adjusting your AFM would be considered a band-aid by many members.  It was glued to where the factory set it, wasn't it?  Did you break the glue blobs?

You can get your fuel pressure by just running the fuel pump without the engine running.

 Generally, though, your popping symptoms are signs of a lean mixture.  So fuel pressure, AFM, and vacuum leaks are where you want to look.  Good luck.

Correct. Since the cars history is unknown, I never knew who's hands were where. The glue blob on the AFM was already off and the cover had a different adhesive on it when removed. I had to assume someone had been in there tweaking something prior to me so given that, I adjusted per the atlanticz car site. Again, I can move it back to the previous setting no problem.

44 minutes ago, siteunseen said:

And from all I've read the fuel tweak corrects the ECU's OHMZ or resistance? to the coolant sensor. 

When you've got an extra hour this thread is a good read and might light a bulb in your head.

 https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/37549-purs-like-a-kitten/

 

Excellent! I will take the dive!

30 minutes ago, zeeboost said:

Check your fuel pressure inline with a gauge between the filter and the rail, verify that it can maintain 35+ psi when loaded up. I've had your same symptom before with 0 psi in the rail. I had no clue how it was idling (possibly secondary source through the charcoal canister...?), but it would sound healthy as a horse until you tried to drive it, then fall flat on its face. To make sure the gauge wasnt broken I used clear vinyl tubing on both sides and sure enough, the air bubbles in there would remain stagnant, yet it would idle until I shut it off.

And of course check for vacuum leaks, etc

I will get some fuel pressure numbers this week. The car is not at my house so I make plans of what I want to measure and test then go out there and go through those steps. If I pull the breather line off the valve cover, the car idle takes a heavy dive and almost dies but I will get better numbers once my vacuum gauge comes in. The healthy as a horse and falling flat comment represents this car very well with a lot of timing on the car.

2 minutes ago, siteunseen said:

Was it a bad pump or fuel regulator, maybe a cruddy tank? Your fix can help us all in  the future.

The tank wasn't bad at all. There was already filter between the tank and filter that was replaced. There was no filter inside the fuel pump inlet when removed from the car. At this point I was chasing potential bad fuel having the car sit for a while so I opted to change it out just in case. This is when I also blew all the fuel lines out from the back of the car up to the engine bay using compressed air thinking there was crud in the lines. There were no visible signs of debris in the lines when cleared out.

I have a vacuum gauge on order and my next plan is to record the following data points:

  • Fuel Pressure
  • Vacuum Pressure

I can always add more items to the list 🙂 

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8 minutes ago, kinser86 said:

the car idle takes a heavy dive and almost dies but I will get better numbers once my vacuum gauge comes in. The healthy as a horse and falling flat comment represents this car very well with a lot of timing on the car.

The engines are very sensitive to even small vacuum leaks.  Removing the PCV hose is a huge one and lets umetered air in.  The engine leans out when that happens.  The vacuum gauge might find large leaks.

One test for vacuum leaks that I use is to run the idle speed screw all the way down.  The engine should die from lack of air.  If it doesn't there's a vacuum leak.  If it does, any leaks are probably very small.

Good luck.

Edited by Zed Head

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I would definitely put the AFM back to where it was when you bought it. And then install the potentiometer. Play with that and see if you can get her to run better.

Like everyone is saying, check fuel pressure and look for vacuum leaks. I like Zed Heads test of running the idle screw all the down. But if you do have vacuum leaks they may be hard to find if you can't keep her running. I've been known to unscrew and lift the oil fill cap just a little to test for vacuum leaks. If there is no change or very little change you may have vacuum leaks.

I didn't see this anywhere but have you pulled the plugs to see how they are burning? That will also tell you a lot.

Edited by rcb280z

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Nice work so far. Taking the bull by the horns and not wanting to be simply referred back to the FSM.

Here's a chart I whipped up a while back to evaluate the resistance measurements from the air and water temp sensors:
sensorchart.jpg

*This chart was created using the Stienhart-Hart Equation with coefficients derived from data points in the manual.

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sure sounds like a fuel pressure issue to me. I assume the temp sensor resistance check was done at the ECU?

I don't know why you deleted the CSV, unless you never plan to travel north. those compression figures look too high seems odd. for a stock engine.

I agree with the old school approach for reading the plugs.

Edited by Dave WM

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23 hours ago, kinser86 said:

it always had a presence of fuel smell in the exhaust. The car was parked because the fuel smell and rough driving started getting worse. The car then sat for a year and a half and now its time to get it back up and running.

I think that CO is referring to part of the original problem, the reason for parking it, above.  I saw the same conflict.  The question might be what "rough driving" means.

It's a dilemma because it might have just needed a good tuneup, if it was running well before.  The OP was pondering buying a new AFM, after "calibrating" the existing one.  So the $5 AFM tweak would be a good diagnostic tool.  It might not solve the popping problem, but if it doesn't a new AFM probably won't either.

The basics need to be covered first though, like fuel pressure.  Get it driveable, then worry about gas smell, seems reasonable.  A non-drivable car with clean exhaust isn't very valuable.

There are other ways to get backfiring, like cross-firing plug wires.

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forgot to ask, how did the plug parts look before deoxit? bad green corrosion can travel up the wire under insulation. Also always a good thing to check is grounds and fuse links for solid connections. If you can make it "run rough" by revving it up, try listening to the injectors with a mech stethoscope. I assume the injectors are the stock ones that came with the car?

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A lot of responses.

On 8/26/2018 at 5:14 PM, siteunseen said:

There are a lot of parallels between the driving characteristics described by FastWoman and the car I am working on. I am going to add a potentiometer and tinker accordingly to see if it makes an impact.

20 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

Nice work so far. Taking the bull by the horns and not wanting to be simply referred back to the FSM.

Here's a chart I whipped up a while back to evaluate the resistance measurements from the air and water temp sensors:
sensorchart.jpg

*This chart was created using the Stienhart-Hart Equation with coefficients derived from data points in the manual.

Awesome. After reading about the Steinhart-Hart equation, I calculated the constants and now have a chart of my own to play with.

20 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

I got one basic question to start... Do you think you are running rich, or running lean?

Given the symptoms of the engine, lean.

4 hours ago, siteunseen said:

He said he has strong exhaust fumes but it pops through the AFM so I'd do what Bob says above, shows us your tips. 😊

Related image

I have never been an expert spark plug whisperer but I will add 'Pictures of tips' to my to-do list.

3 hours ago, Dave WM said:

sure sounds like a fuel pressure issue to me. I assume the temp sensor resistance check was done at the ECU?

I don't know why you deleted the CSV, unless you never plan to travel north. those compression figures look too high seems odd. for a stock engine.

I agree with the old school approach for reading the plugs.

Resistances were checked through the harness at the ECU and at the sensor. I agree the compression numbers seem high, the engine was cold. I have not run one with a warm block but I can add it to the to-do list.

3 hours ago, Zed Head said:

I think that CO is referring to part of the original problem, the reason for parking it, above.  I saw the same conflict.  The question might be what "rough driving" means.

It's a dilemma because it might have just needed a good tuneup, if it was running well before.  The OP was pondering buying a new AFM, after "calibrating" the existing one.  So the $5 AFM tweak would be a good diagnostic tool.  It might not solve the popping problem, but if it doesn't a new AFM probably won't either.

The basics need to be covered first though, like fuel pressure.  Get it driveable, then worry about gas smell, seems reasonable.  A non-drivable car with clean exhaust isn't very valuable.

There are other ways to get backfiring, like cross-firing plug wires.

I can't remember how well it ever ran but it definitely was never 100%. Definitely never broke the tires loose, bellow 3500 RPM was unpleasant (flat spots in throttle), above 3500 RPM, the car felt ok. For a while I thought the TPS was a culprit but I tested it both at the ECU and at the component  without issue. Plug wires and firing order are correct. 

3 hours ago, Dave WM said:

forgot to ask, how did the plug parts look before deoxit? bad green corrosion can travel up the wire under insulation. Also always a good thing to check is grounds and fuse links for solid connections. If you can make it "run rough" by revving it up, try listening to the injectors with a mech stethoscope. I assume the injectors are the stock ones that came with the car?

The connectors before the dexoit were actually not bad. I ended up cutting the connectors back about 3 inches when I put in the new connectors. I even checked the AFM carbon trace for wear grooves, also spraying the internals with deoxit. I have not changed the AFM connector. Fuse links were removed and replaced with a maxifuse system.

In reference to the potentiometer, what power has everyone been running? 1/5W? 1/2W? 1W? adafruit has a 1/5W for $1 I can get. Otherwise I would have to go through digikey for some higher power ones.

Revised to-do list:

  • Record/report new fuel pressure numbers
  • Record/report vacuum pressure numbers
  • Take pictures of the spark plug tips
  • Install 1K linear pot and adjust per atlanticZ
  • Turn AFM 6 teeth counterclock wise back to previous spot.

Thanks everyone for the help.

Edited by kinser86
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Alright reporting back some findings.

  • Fuel Pressure: 34 PSI @ 800RPM
  • Vacuum:  18 inHg @ 800RPM
  • AFM rotated back 6 teeth (original setting)
  • plugs.jpg

1K linear potentiometer installed per atlanticz website at 480Ω

  • Increasing resistance causes the engine to idle lower
  • Decreasing resistance causes the engine to idle higher
  • There is definitely in audible difference in idle when changing the resistance
  • Symptoms do not go away.

Car is still unable to drive, popping and stumbling the second you try to drive off.

Below is a video of the car after warming up with all the previous items performed. Notice the pop in the vacuum gauge. 

 

Edited by kinser86
picture

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fuel pressure to high, with that kind of vacuum you should be close to 29psi at idle. are you sure the vacuum lead is connected to the FPR? is the fuel pressure changing with the vacuum? If those are newish plugs you are too rich, again too high a fuel pressure could account for that.

Edited by Dave WM

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My guess is removing the oil filler cap will have NO effect on the idle. it should make is worse.

Edited by Dave WM

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16 minutes ago, kinser86 said:
  • Fuel Pressure: 34 PSI @ 800RPM
  • Vacuum:  18 inHg @ 800RPM

1K linear potentiometer installed per atlanticz website at 480Ω

  • Increasing resistance causes the engine to idle lower
  • Decreasing resistance causes the engine to idle higher
  • There is definitely in audible difference in idle when changing the resistance
  • Symptoms do not go away.

Car is still unable to drive, popping and stumbling the second you try to drive off.

You talk about the idle at different potentiometer settings but don't say anything about what you did while driving.  You want to increase resistance until it's drivable.  A little bit at a time.  Watching your video makes me think that you do things in very large steps.  The resistance changes will be fine steps, not big cranks of the knob.

Your fuel pressure seems high for the vacuum reading.  18 inches of vacuum = 8.8 psi.  34 + 8.8 = 42.8 psi.  It might be that the hose to your FPR has a leak or a split.  Make sure that the FPR is getting a godd vacuum source.  That should drop your fuel pressure, which will clean up the idle smell.

When you open the throttle the FPR doesn't see much vacuum.  That's how you can have a rich idle and a lean driving problem.  The EFI system needs the fine details to be right.

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20 minutes ago, Dave WM said:

fuel pressure to high, with that kind of vacuum you should be close to 29psi at idle. are you sure the vacuum lead is connected to the FPR? is the fuel pressure changing with the vacuum? If those are newish plugs you are too rich, again too high a fuel pressure could account for that.

FPR vacuum lead is connected.

17 minutes ago, Dave WM said:

My guess is removing the oil filler cap will have NO effect on the idle. it should make is worse.

Removing the oil filter cap will make the engine almost die at idle.

17 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

You talk about the idle at different potentiometer settings but don't say anything about what you did while driving.  You want to increase resistance until it's drivable.  A little bit at a time.  Watching your video makes me think that you do things in very large steps.  The resistance changes will be fine steps, not big cranks of the knob.

Your fuel pressure seems high for the vacuum reading.  18 inches of vacuum = 8.8 psi.  34 + 8.8 = 42.8 psi.  It might be that the hose to your FPR has a leak or a split.  Make sure that the FPR is getting a godd vacuum source.  That should drop your fuel pressure, which will clean up the idle smell.

 When you open the throttle the FPR doesn't see much vacuum.  That's how you can have a rich idle and a lean driving problem.  The EFI system needs the fine details to be right.

The reference to the 1K pot swings at idle was stating that it has an impact (it is installed correct). Driving the car is still next to impossible and I have a video I am working on uploading to show it driving. Trying to adjust the pot while driving is still not even an option yet but once it is, then I can start tuning it.

Vacuum reading was taken between the vacuum advance and intake. The hose between the FPR and intake is new and still soft. It sounds like this is leaning towards the FPR being bad.

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did you see the fuel pressure change with the vacuum? as manifold vacuum decreases (less vacuum, no matter how say it does not seem right) FP should go up. with the engine off (no vacuum) pressure should be about 36 psi, idle should be 29psi, should vary between those with throttle, go even lower than the 29 psi as you snap the throttle closed and the vacuum shoot to 25inhg.

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another reason the psi could be high is a "stuffy" return line. try letting the return line drain into a holding tank with some long fuel hose.

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