Interior Ergonomics

[Sean Dezart]

Alan,

I just got hit by all the other (RHD) responses and something you said made me react.

Here in France, the French manufacturers loads their export cars with extras sometimes never seen on domestic models or, at the least are costly extras. Can't we assume that Nissan did the same with the Z ? Rather than quote the ZL and other models as models made cheaper for the Japanese market (because of the tax cutoffs?), shouldn't we be saying that the export markets got the top of the range domestic model (432 excepted - is that synthetic or mineral oil change?) ?

Big mistake not to have at least exported a limited number of Skylines to each country and let the motoring journalists have a go. This dreary Datsun image would have been shortlived !

Fred, if you speak nicely to Steve, he'll sell you his 200 brake 1983 Skyline !

[Zvoiture]

Well, I for one find this sort of industrial anthropology fascinating. It is really interesting to watch the influence of the Japanese automobile on the American manufacturers. Those of you who have been driving for 20+ years will appreciate the parking brake (pedal to the left of the clutch with a hand release lever)/emergency brake (lever somewhere on the tunnel OR 'pull-and-twist' below steering wheel) transition. Can this move be tied directly to the Japanese industrial invasion? Or is it strictly the size of the automobile that dictates this brake placement (my LS-400 has a parking brake!)?What was the first American car you remember which had an 'emergency brake'? Pinto? Chevette?

What about amber turn signals? Now quite a few American cars have them. Why? Are they safer? Do they look better? DOT obviously has not decided the three-circuit tail light is inferior, or all American cars would have ambers.

Keep 'em coming Alan.

steve

[Sean Dezart]

Jaguars also had this 'umbrella' type of handbrake but there was no specific pedal to operate it - one simply depressed the brake pedal, pulled on the lever and turned it to engage the handbrake !

If there was an effect on the UK car market from the importation of Japanese cars, it might possibly have been the installing of more extras such as a heated rear screen, a heater, a radio and eventually - an electric ariel !

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by NickF

Alan.

Nissan would have realised the export potential of the Z, it would have been designed for the world market, may be not as well designed as it should have been,the hand brake for instance.

But that did'nt seem to bother many thousands of Americans who could'nt get enough of them may be design genius??

Were Zs exported to USA before UK? the natural export market?

Credit where it is due they built a car that sold very well in the market that it was intended for.

Pity the UK motor industry was still trying to sell some pretty average product in the 1970s

Nick

Hi Nick,

Thanks for your input.

That Nissan were hoping for good export sales with the S30-series Z is not in doubt, but what I am disputing is the statement that the S30-series Z was designed specifically "for" the USA / North American market in the sense that the LHD version was the priority, and some kind of blueprint or base version. I have seen that implied on another site, and I think that its wrong.

My point in trying to get a discussion going about the Handbrake positioning ( as an example of many other small details ) is to defend against this statement.

I don't know about design genius, but MARKETING genius was certainly involved in its success in the USA / North American market ( including its price! - Nissan cut their profit to the bone for the USA market ). I've never seen, heard or read any discussion about the positioning of certain controls on the LHD versions in comparison with the RHD versions. Added to this, it always seems that the USA market were for the best part unaware that other markets were getting a 5-speed manual transmission and sportier diff. ratio ( as well as a rear anti-roll / sway bar ). That makes me feel that these topics are worthy of discussion.

The Z was indeed exported to the USA before the UK, but I think the UK market is pretty much a sidetrack in this story. Distance of shipping, Import Quotas, Type Approval and high purchase taxes for imported vehicles put paid to Nissan's 1970 import plans, and the first batch of cars initially aimed at the UK were re-designated to the Australian market. The big point ( almost never discussed ) is that the car was launched in JAPAN. Its the Japanese cars that always seem to get described as some kind of inferior cousin, but I don't think this is completely justified. Please don't think I am trying to champion the UK-market RHD cars. That's not my point. As far as the point of this thread is concerned, it was pretty much a coincidence that there were some export markets that were also RHD..............

I agree that the UK motor industry was making some pretty indifferent product around that period. I'm no flag-waving "British is Best" clone, and I have first-hand experience of some of the crap that they were churning out. When the "240Z" was launched in the UK, motoring journalists had the cheek to call it a "copy" of the Austin Healey 3000 ( part of that anti-Japanese prejudice so prevalent at the time ). Again, please don't think I'm trying to imply that anything with RHD is superior to an LHD design. Taking the discussion up that path is to miss the point I think.

Best regards,

Alan T.

[McZ]

Well, I've always thought that if it was positioned to one side or the other to keep it out of the way of the driver, at least for the home market. I'm here in the US and I know most of the cars here if it's not centered then it's to the right. I've owed a '90 240SX and have a '95 Prelude and they are to the left. That made me think it was for Japanese home market. My brother's '91 Z28 is to the right. As far as it bothering me, I'm a small guy too so it does'nt get in my way but my cousin whose a big guy says it rubs his leg. When it's on the driver side, I just use it for a hand rest.

Maybe the Z wasn't built with just the US market in mind, but since Mr. K was leading Datsun over here at the time, I think designing for US market high on the list. My 2 cents anyway!

[HS30-H]

Hi Sean,

Sorry to be tardy in getting back to you on this.

I'm not trying to debate anything about the actual design of the Handbrake mechanism - just the matter of whether its positioning on the RIGHT hand side of the trans tunnel could be seen as more ergonomically efficient for RHD, or for LHD S30-series Z cars.

I think this is a clue to whether the car was engineered initially as an RHD, or initially as an LHD.

However, in order to get there we have to hear whether or not LHD owners think that it SHOULD be on the right side of the tunnel for LHD Z cars. It seems to me that RHD owners are quite happy with it on the right.

In normal use, this will not matter all that much. I realise its almost a non-issue for most owners of LHD cars. I'm not trying to imply that the LHD cars are fatally flawed because the Handbrake is on the "wrong" side of the tunnel. I'm just trying to use it as a clue to establish some kind of debate on the origin of the design. I'm irritated that some people have been trying to make others believe that the USA / North American market cars were in some way the evolutionary fathers of ALL versions of the S30-series Z car.

Sean - in answer to your question, it would be a fairly involved process to engineer a mirror-image handbrake on the left side of the tunnel, but it seems that certain of the Factory rally drivers insisted that such mods be performed on some of the Works rally cars that were made in LHD ( for such events as the Monte Carlo Rally ). Surely they must have found that having the Handbrake on the SAME side of the tunnel as they were sitting was essential to its effective operation in Rallying? I think that's a big clue to the answer of all this. Hell of a big job.

As for your theory about the Export models getting the top of the range Domestic models with all the bells and whistles - its not as simple as that is it? The Japanese "Home" market cars have always seemed to be written off as in some way inferior, and the fact that they were badged "Fairlady" seems to have convinced many that it was a completely different model. In truth, the top of the range L-series engined Fairlady - the ZL - was of an arguably superior spec to the USA / North American market "240Z" EXCEPT for the size of its engine. This is not even including the 432 in the discussion. Its well known why the Home market cars were initially pegged at under 2 litres ( at least until late 1971 ), but they DID have the 5-speed, more suitable diff ratio for a "Sports" car, and a rear anti-roll bar.

The best all-round car would have to be a combination of the L24 and the five speed / diff / rear ARB - but nobody got that until the "HS30" cars started hitting the showroom floors.........

Sorry my replies are always a bit "dry". I'll have to think of a way to make them a bit more interesting. I certainly don't mean them to come out that way. Ideally all this debating would be done over a drink ( like a kind of bar-room U.N. of the Z ) but since that is a bit beyond us yet we'll have to do the best we can.

Cheers!

Alan T.

[Alfadog]

Don't worry Alan, I for one find this debate very interesting. I'm sure most others do too - if they dont, they dont have to read it!!

McZ has an interesting thought. I'm going to have to check out all of our other cars and then perhaps we can make it clearer as to which side most Auto manufacturers find more ergonomic? Of course, that still will not explain the fact that the rally drivers of LHD Z's had their handbrakes switched over. I think that is the biggest clue as to which side of the tunnel is the "better" for driving.

I had another good question but it has slipped my mind now!

Maybe a poll is in order Alan?

[Sean Dezart]

Dry Alan ? Don't change - you entertain me enough on circuits !

Anyway, if you want to wet it down - come over for a Club Zen weekend and help us promote these cars to the French !

I never found the handbrake to "get in my way" in a RHD car and I aint lookin' forward to driving LHD and leaning over to pull a tendon to apply and release the brake !

I for one stand up to be counted and say - the Z was built as it was to be a multi market car (certainly in terms of interior size and equipment levels) ! I agree Alan that it was as much coincidence that there existed other RHD markets.

The Japanese domestic cars were not inferior, they were tailor made for their market (eg car tax over 2000cc), windier roads (sporty diff and anti roll bars).

Remember that the Japanese are experts at cornering Niche markets !

Finally, the Zs were not designed exclusively for the States. That you guys received lower equipment levels (perhaps in part due to you had the cars at the beginning early evolutive stages) jsut proves that your dometic manufacturers couldn't compete and the european imports were either overpriced or couldn't match the poor (by other market standards) levels of equipment / performance !

You all basically took what was offered and the marketing was so good (hats off to Mr K and also the racing programmes) that it sold !

[Mr Camouflage]

Originally posted by Sean Dezart

The Japanese domestic cars were not inferior, they were tailor made for their market

I agree. Who said Japanese market cars were inferior? Just because they had a 2 litre engine? 5 speeds are better than 4.

Did aussie cars get rear sway bars? I just looked under mine, and there isn't one. So i would have to assume no.

[HS30-H]

Here's an interesting pair of pictures.

This is a Factory "Works" built rally car, in fact its the car that came third in the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally ( crewed by Rauno Aaltonen and Jean Todt ). I took the photos on a visit to the NISMO HQ at Omori in Tokyo, where the car was temporarily on display.

Take a look at the Handbrake position and the Centre Console.

Interesting isn't it?

Alan T.

( ps - That's the Brake Bias Control Valve that you can see hiding under the cutout in the console. Somebody has taken the knob as a souvenir............... ).

[Zedrally]

Actually,

I think its more than interesting, who's noticed the console.

Have a look at the way it's moulded around the brake!

Maybe the LHD version with brake on the LH side of the tunnel with matching console was an option after all?

[Zedrally]

Originally posted by Mr Camouflage

Did aussie cars get rear sway bars? I just looked under mine, and there isn't one. So i would have to assume no.

My 240 hasn't got one, but not being sure of it's providence I can't discount it not being taken off.[can't prove it either]!

on the other hand my 260 has.

I suspect the ones that didn't may have been the shipment that was meant to go to the UK.