MSA exhaust questions

[OhDearAudrey]

So i think i'm going to do a 6 - 1 header straight back with 2.25 in pipe. Is there a muffler you would recommend to go with this application, or should i just let a shop figure it out? When ordering the header do i need the stock (2") adapter or the 2.5" adapter?

Lastly, how much should a shop making a straight pipe, installing the header, and a muffler cost? I emailed a few local shops, only one got back to me, and quoted me 650 for the pipe and magnaflow muffler, and 100 dollars an hour to install the header. This feels a bit high for what i am asking.

[S30Driver]

Install the headers yourself or have a local member help you do it. Its a labor intensive job that a shop will charge big $ for. Replace the bolts & studs with new quality hardware (you probably have a couple of broken studs that need to be replaced) & get a new nissan manifold gasket. Then drive it to the muffler shop to have the rest of the system done.

[jr260z]

FYI. I went with the 3-2-1 coated header from MSA, also installed their 2.5" exhaust system. I coated the tailpipes and muffler with hi-temp paint when installing, and it's holding up well.

The sound at idle is like a small block chevy with a cam in it, some people who hear it don't believe it' a stock L-26. At revs, it's a nice throaty howl up to 6500 rpm's.

I installed it myself with no problems, and would suggest as in a previous post that you replace all the studs and nuts when you do the swap.

Having Summit Racing just down the street was a big plus too, all of the pipe joints were sealed with stainless band clamps, and hangers used stainless clamps as well.

I can't say enough about the MSA system, it fit well and was no problem to install, the engine revs quicker and seems to be producing a lot more power now that it can breath.

[OhDearAudrey]

Alright guys, i took it to get the system done, The place i took it to was recommended. And they said they knew what they were doing. A week later still no car and the answers i get on the phone as to why it isn't done when they said it would be make it clear they have no idea what they are doing on an old z car.

My question is what should i look for BEFORE i leave the shop? I'm scared of them like dropping a bolt into my engine after taking the manifold off or breaking a stud off but just not getting it out or something crazy, or rushing it and screwing something up because i called a couple of times.

They replaced the header and put a new exhaust system off, so removal of the intake was necessary, so any tips would be appreciated.

[Gary in NJ]

Make sure all of the studs are properly installed & secure. Did you give them new studs to install with the exhaust system?

[Zedyone_kenobi]

I would be leery to let a shop that known nothing of an L series motor install a header. But that is water under the bridge.

My first piece of advice, ask them what header gasket they used. Reason being is the intake and exhaust use the same gasket in most cases (my only gripe about the Lseries) and I would hate to think they just unbolted the manifold and either put the header on old the gasket, or they just cut you a new one. Also, ask them what torque values they used for the bolts/studs. They are going into aluminum remember.

Just stay on them. I know mechanics hate being second guessed, but it is YOUR car and they should treat you with respect.

[OhDearAudrey]

Yeah i gave them the stud kit from MSA, I should be picking it up at 4 i'll let you guys know how it turns out.

[OhDearAudrey]

As it turns out, it turns out terrible. So the car Idles at 2 - 2.5k rpms now, from about 1 before, sounds like I'm just stepping on the gas. it's tougher to get it going when starting from stopped, before it was so smooth and easy like it was an automatic almost, now it starts to shudder and die when i give it gas.

It runs hotter now, i don't know if that's because the heat shield was removed, but the needle used to sit when warmed up at the first leg of the M in TEMP now its at the last leg.

And the biggest problem of all, there is fuel leaking out of the Rail, from what i could tell bubbling out of a little circle cannister in the center of the race track shaped metal tubes. And not just a little leak, a drive home cost me half a tank of gas and its a steady drip, i made a video, and have pictures.

I called the shop owner, he seemed reluctant to do anything calling my car a "piece of $^!#" and cussing me out. Saying it wasn't his fault the hoses and piece were brittle, and that he took a hit on the car because of all the extra labor he had to put in it because he didn't know what he was doing. I finally got him to agree to bring his mechanic to my house, but he swears there was no gas leaking out at the shop.

Ignore My rusty Trailer hitch mount, the prev owner welded it onto a bracket that i can't take off, but that's an issue all in itself.

Any advice,

What a pain in the arse.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/imanarud/chris/IMAG0012.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/imanarud/chris/IMAG0010.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/imanarud/chris/IMAG0009.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/imanarud/chris/IMAG0007.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/imanarud/chris/IMAG0006.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/imanarud/chris/IMAG0005.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/imanarud/chris/IMAG0004.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/imanarud/chris/IMAG0002.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/imanarud/chris/IMAG0001.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSUcJJSLZ2Q

Edited July 30, 2010 by OhDearAudrey

[Gary in NJ]

Any advice,

Get an attorney.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Okay, here is the deal. And you are not going to like what I have to say. First, if the guy did not know about these cars he should have warned you, and possibly turned the work down. Okay I said the only thing you may agree with.

Now the hard to hear part. Mechanics get asked to fix one thing on a car. Say install a new carburator. Well they get the carb on as promised, but the owner is pissed when the new carb does not run correctly. WHy? Burnt valve, vacuum leaks, poor timing, clogged filters, etc. The list goes on and on. What you have there is an older car that probably needed MANY things MUCH MORE than a header and exhaust. However, you asked the mechanic to install it and he did. I am sure he found many things that your car needed on the way, but he did not tell you that, and did not bill you for them.

I know you think he is the enemy right now, and he may or may have not done shoddy work. The welds do not look terrible, and the muffler looks about right. The pictures that show the throttle linkage tell me that you need to give the engine some attention. Wires need inspection, hoses need replacement, etc. A high idle sounds like a vacuum leak to me perhaps. That may make you run lean and that would also raise your engines running temp.

My advice is harsh but sound. Replace all your vacuum hoses one by one. Take your time and do it right. Clean up the wiring and route it better. Get a new fuel rail from one of the datsun parts suppliers. Fix the cars old parts and cease adding performance enhancements. I understand that the exhaust replacement was to get rid of your old rusty exhaust, but did you need a header for that?

Second, put your heat shield back on. I run headers and I installed my stock heat shield after I replaced my gasket.

Third. Take a deep breath. This shall pass. When you put your car into somebody else's hands, this often happens. Mechanics get a bad rap, but for the most part they are not bad people. He had to remove the entire side of the engine to install the part you asked him to. Not trivial. Check for vacuum leaks, install new hoses, make sure your throttle is not binding. Methodically check everything. You will learn quite a lot doing this. Write it down and keep a log. Take pictures of the parts.

We will all do what we can to help.

[OhDearAudrey]

Okay, here is the deal. And you are not going to like what I have to say. First, if the guy did not know about these cars he should have warned you, and possibly turned the work down. Okay I said the only thing you may agree with.

Now the hard to hear part. Mechanics get asked to fix one thing on a car. Say install a new carburator. Well they get the carb on as promised, but the owner is pissed when the new carb does not run correctly. WHy? Burnt valve, vacuum leaks, poor timing, clogged filters, etc. The list goes on and on. What you have there is an older car that probably needed MANY things MUCH MORE than a header and exhaust. However, you asked the mechanic to install it and he did. I am sure he found many things that your car needed on the way, but he did not tell you that, and did not bill you for them.

I know you think he is the enemy right now, and he may or may have not done shoddy work. The welds do not look terrible, and the muffler looks about right. The pictures that show the throttle linkage tell me that you need to give the engine some attention. Wires need inspection, hoses need replacement, etc. A high idle sounds like a vacuum leak to me perhaps. That may make you run lean and that would also raise your engines running temp.

My advice is harsh but sound. Replace all your vacuum hoses one by one. Take your time and do it right. Clean up the wiring and route it better. Get a new fuel rail from one of the datsun parts suppliers. Fix the cars old parts and cease adding performance enhancements. I understand that the exhaust replacement was to get rid of your old rusty exhaust, but did you need a header for that?

Second, put your heat shield back on. I run headers and I installed my stock heat shield after I replaced my gasket.

Third. Take a deep breath. This shall pass. When you put your car into somebody else's hands, this often happens. Mechanics get a bad rap, but for the most part they are not bad people. He had to remove the entire side of the engine to install the part you asked him to. Not trivial. Check for vacuum leaks, install new hoses, make sure your throttle is not binding. Methodically check everything. You will learn quite a lot doing this. Write it down and keep a log. Take pictures of the parts.

We will all do what we can to help.

Why? The car had 0 problems before i took it in, now it's leaking fuel all over the place and the throttle is stuck. It was my daily driver, now it is un-driveable. Is it too much to ask for it in at least the same condition i dropped it off in?

If someone comes to your house to mount a tv on the wall, and they get it up but afterwards the power in the rest of your house doesn't work, is that OK? I mean they installed the TV just like you asked, but maybe the wiring was old so it's ok to let it slide?

I may not be a mechanic, i work on computers. A bit nerdier then a mechanic but if you bring me a computer and ask me to install some memory, but when you get it back it no longer turns off. Thats ok though, just go buy yourself a new motherboard or whatever and install it yourself, you will learn a lot. Your case was dusty and the processor slow so i don't know why you bothered doing a performance upgrade anyway.

I expect to get whatever i give for a service to be rendered back in the same condition it was given. Not, hey thanks for installing that exhaust, i mean nothing else works anymore but by-golly it sure looks pretty under there keeping my driveway warm.

This is not a personal attack on you, you just a hit a nerve. That's the same answer the mechanic gave me: "Well i did what you asked"

[Zedyone_kenobi]

I understand your frustration, but the fact that you did not install it yourself, and you said that you are not a mechanic, tells me you did not know you had 0 problems. Just about NO 35+ year old car has no problems. Did you know the condition of every single part under that engine bay? I bet not. In the process of taking off the entire driver side of the engine and putting it back together perhaps a hose that was badly degraded finally broke. That kind of thing happens all the time.

I am not trying to make excuses for a stuck throttle, which should be a very easy fix, or for anything else. But there are two sides to the story. He could have communicated better to you perhaps.

I am just saying that your attitude is why many mechanics will refuse to work on older cars. Lets say you had three wires and a hose that were so far degraded that when he took them off they failed. Now did he charge you for those hoses. Probably not. Did he even know that there were bad connections or broken hoses, maybe not.

Now, if he would replace everything that looked faulty and charged you for it he would be a A-hole for doing work you did not authorize.

I am partly on your side as I feel your pain, but I think that not all the fault is the mechanics. Anytime you take your car to a mechanic you are at their mercy. Perhaps this guy was not entirely on the level and his customer service could use some work. Granted that appears to be the case, but it is time to admit to yourself that you either need to learn more about the car you drive daily and get your hands dirty, or find a dedicated Z mechanic in your area.

Your computer analogy is not the same. WE are talking a 35+ year old machine. So lets modify your story. I bring you in my 200MHz Pentium 2 machine that dates back to the early 90's. I ask you to install Windows 7 and leave. I do not ask you to upgrade everything that is old or out of date, just install windows seven. Naturally when I get my computer back I have issues with it and I blame you for it. Whose fault is it really. The answer is both yours and mine. I should have made sure my computer could handle the upgrade, and if not me, you should have told me I needed to fix many different things before it will work.

It is still a weak analogy the way I wrote it, but it is closer to what happened. Comparing upgrading cars to a computer is not really the same thing. Cars can degrade and still work for a long time. Computers will usually let you know when something is broken (blue screen of death, etc). Cars have gaskets and rubber that degrade over time, cars corrode, rust, and deteriorate. That is all I can say. Your problems sound minor, and I wish you the best.

I do sincerely wish you the best of luck.