New discovery; the story of solid/chrome Z emblem

[HS30-H]

Ron,

I have a lot of catching up to do, as you have posed a lot of questions since I last logged on. Please excuse me chopping up your posts into quotes in order to answer the points you have made.

Do you contend that there was no other quarter panel emblem design up for consideration for export to North America? You did submit as your guess, “last minute name changes”…. and not, the last minute change to go with the 240Z (in white) emblem, instead of the solid version. They both say 240Z. If so, that’s where we differ in opinion.

First of all, I'm trying to take the factory line - and I won't ( can't! ) single out the North American market sector on this emblems subject when the factory were covering USA/Canada under their 'Export model' umbrella. I also believe that the '240Z' emblems - in all shapes and forms - were never intended exclusively for the North American market, even though that's pretty much all we ever hear about them.

I honestly don't know what the timeline was in respect to these "last minute name changes", but I have the impression that most of the vernacular we hear and read about Katayama's rejection of the 'Fairlady' name for the S30-series is only one side of the story, and apocryphal into the bargain. We can see that emblems saying '240Z' were being placed on prototypes as far back as 1968 - in which case you'd think that a finalised production design for such an emblem could easily have been finished before hundreds of cars started roling down the line at Nissan Shatai in October, November and December of 1969 ( and later? ). What does this signify? Surely only that the details of the '240Z' emblem design were not finalised in time, but why? My guess is that there must have still been some kind of indecision going on, as I can't imagine any other scenario........

As for the details of that 'Z' in the Export '240Z' emblems - as far as I understand it, what we are calling the 'solid chrome Z' and 'non-recessed' emblems were only prototypes, and were never supposed to have made it onto finished cars sold to the general public. So I don't believe that this was indecision based around which version of the 'Z' ( 'solid chrome' or 'white filled' ) should be used on the '240Z' emblem. I think Kats has settled that point with Matsuo san ( see below ).

I believe the decision was not, what version of the 240Z emblem to go with, but a completely different medallion design that was up for consideration, whatever that may have been. Hope that explains my belief of "240Z" being the "predominant plan".

When you wrote that you saw the '240Z' pillar emblem as the "predominant plan", my immediate reaction was that it clearly wasn't! I'd say that the dominant plan - as far as most of the design and engineering of the emblems was concerned - was centred around the Domestic market models. We don't see any last minute changes to their emblems or model naming, and they appear to have been settled quite early. Certainly well in time for volume production of over 1000 cars before the end of 1969........

I see several different designs of pillar emblems on the clays and prototypes, and I'd love to know which was the favourite up until this last minute change we are talking about. Was it the 'Nissan' logoed round emblem ( surely not for Export models? ), was it the letter 'Z'-signifying nautical signal flag design that Chris is calling the 'Zulu' flag, or perhaps the shield shaped emblem that we can barely make out on some of the clays? Don't know.

I think the solid version is nothing more than a prototype design, in need of refinement, that was used up early in production, before the later ones were mass produced.

I believe Matsuo san has confirmed this in his discussions with Kats. Kats will - I think - have been talking to him specifically about the earliest '240Z' emblems and the story surrounding them, and I wonder whether Matsuo san was focusing on just that aspect of the story - when the wider topic of all the emblems might have given a fuller answer? Now I want to ask him some questions from a different angle.......

And the third point, relating to “As far as Nissan were concerned, the ‘240Z’ was the ‘Fairlady Export Model’. Yes, that is the way it came about, but going full circle, I’m left wondering if ‘240Z’ was a carved in stone acronym for “Fairlady Export Model” at the time.

This is my point. The Export model could have been called anything, but as far as Nissan as a corporate entity were concerned that anything - and for all the different Export territories they sold cars into - was always going to be an 'Export Model' of their 'Fairlady Z'. This happened with pretty much all of their different models and series of cars and trucks too. I think it's a quite natural viewpoint. It's not a premeditated political stance intended to make anybody think of a commercial product in a certain way, or something written by advertising copywriters as part of a sales campaign.

[HS30-H]

Chris, is this the Fairlady emblem picture you were looking for? I found it posted by you in an old thread and you indicated it was from the guy in London that you got the film from.

Mike ( I think you know this Chris ),

That's the post-October '71 'Fairlady' script emblem ( part no. 63805-E8725 ) that was introduced for the Domestic market L24-engined models ( Fairlady 240Z, Fairlady 240Z-L & Fairlady 240ZG ), and was placed before the '240Z' emblem to make a 'Fairlady 240Z' reading pair. This is the type that is fitted to my 240ZG. I don't think they fit into any conversation regarding truly early S30-series Z emblems.......

Chris, you will remember the gent that sold it to you told you that it had come from a particular 'works' 240Z rally car. This is - of course - impossible. First of all, it is from the wrong year for that particular car and secondly we know what emblems that car was wearing when it first arrived in the UK.

Did I mention that he's most definitely not from London....... :knockedou

[HS30-H]

........but cannot find an answer or opinions pertaining to the early home market B post emblems.

What exactly is the difference between the LH and RH sides of the early non-vented B post emblems used on the home market models? Appearance, mounting?

Ron,

I've stuck a pair of these on my project car now - so it's a bit late to start taking detail photos of them ( wish I had now ).

Yes they are handed left and right, but the difference is very subtle. I know that there is a difference in the mounting pin positioning, but I also recall ( but don't quote me on this ) that there is a slight difference in thickness between the forward-facing parts and rearward-facing parts on both sides. There's only one way for the 'Z' logo to be up, but I've seen them mounted upside down on a few cars - which is certainly the owner's mistake.

Unless anyone else has some handy I shall have to take them off my car to satisfy my curiosity now. They are different part numbers for left and right.

These early home market B post emblems would definitely seem out of place today, but if they were used from the start, in the production of the North American destined models, would you in any way associate the emblem with “Fairlady”?

Do you think Mr. Katayama was opposed to this emblem, because he wanted an absolute division between the different markets?

Maybe I'm biased, but the early Domestic 'Z' pillar emblems seem far more suited to the car than the '240Z' pillar emblems seen on the Export cars. No - I would NOT see any connection to the 'FairladyZ' name seen elsewhere on the Domestic cars and I think you are quite right to wonder how Katayama ( or anyone else ) could have objected to them. You could say the same thing about the 'Z' bonnet ( hood ) emblem of the Domestic cars too; I think it looks infinitely more suited to a sports / GT car than the maker's brand ( whether Nissan or Datsun ).

A conscious effort at market version division by Katayama ( and whoever else )? Quite certainly possible. I'm also thinking of the 'NISSAN' logo emblem seen on the left side of the tailgate ( or spoiler, where fitted ) on Domestic cars, and also the 'Fairlady Z' glovebox lid emblem which was seen as 'Datsun 240Z' on Export models........

I can see the justification of opposing the sharing of the front fender emblems and the liftgate emblems (obvious), but not an emblem adorned with only a stylized Z. It was only a short time later that the stylized Z was brought into play anyhow. This makes me think that the only reason for deciding to go with “240Z” was the fact that they had 2500 of them on hand and decided to use them up and then have the remainder needed mass produced, to finish up the run, without a midstream change.

I initially thought that I would not consider the use of the early home market B post emblem on a North American car a name change, if the “240Z” emblem was retained on the liftgate, but have mixed thoughts.

The guys in the advertising department must have been fit to be tied, in some of these situations.

I'm also wondering what was the hold up with the 'Datsun' script emblems for the tailgate on the Export cars? Surely the use of the 'Datsun' name would have been settled well in advance of launch? Is this indicative of a last-minute swap from some other emblem or positioning?

Wouldn't only be the advertising guys that would be held up by all this either. I'm thinking of all the literature that went along with the Export cars ( owners manuals, workshop manuals, servicing data etc etc ) needing to be finalised before printing - although it seems to have been achieved by late 1969.........

[HS30-H]

Studio Sport '70 was working on a design referenced as the Sport Z. Alan, can you confirm the Japanese use of the word "sport" in name descriptions of the S30?

Yes, although not consistently. There's such a lot of different Japanese literature covering that late '69 / early '70 period, and only some of it uses the 'Sport' or 'Sports' tag after the 'Fairlady Z' name......

For example - and perhaps somewhat curiously - the JAF/FIA homologation papers for the 'S30' & 'S30-S' models ( a different homologation to the 'PS30' & 'PS30-SB', and to the 'H(L)S30' ) describe the name of the car as 'Datsun Sports Z S30', and manufacturer as 'Nissan'.

You can see the word 'Sport' tagged onto the cars in the literature and coverage, but it does not seem to be applied as though it is much more than a description of the sector it might fit into........

I am more than confident that the 240Z emblem we are discussing is the result of an insistence on a very brand oriented, market identifiable, “signature.” It wasn’t just a Z or the tired Fairlady. It was a Datsun 240-Z Sport.

There was a prototype 'SPORTS' emblem that didn't(?) make it onto production Export models, wasn't there? Seen in that nice Feb.'70 issue of Car Graphic magazine:

[26th-Z]

Oh thanks for that reminder photo, Alan. And per some of your comments about 240Z branding, I posted pictures of brochures for export markets other than the U.S. and Canada. We need to do some research and come up with a picture of the shield emblem you talk about.

Thanks to Kats for starting yet another great conversation.

[geezer]

Thanks for the great summation Chris. Marketing was what Mr. Katayama was all about and it seems he was unfaltering in his efforts to establish a unique, recognizable, acceptable by the masses, roll off the tongue brand name to introduce a new model. The more I think about it, and the more I get enlightened by you guys, it is becoming more clear to me that the 240Z was “so much so” a distinctly different product than was built for the home market, yet so closely related, it really did need a different first name. Most of us, if we were put into Mr. Katayama’s position, would recognize the importance of this. 240Z is as good a name as any that I could dream up.

Alan, I’m sorry for falling into the “North American” market trap. Export market really is much more appropriate terminology and I will certainly try to embed this into my conscience.

One more thing about the early chrome/solid 240Z B post emblem that doesn’t set right with me is; if there was an original intent of using the later, refined, white inlayed 240Z B post emblems for the production launch, why did they have enough of the chrome/solid ones to outfit 2500 cars?

I have wondered about some of the early literature and the oddities found in some of the early brochures. It is evident that decisions were being made on the roll and at a very fast pace, especially for a new launch. It makes me think that another additional model may have been in the planning, for the export market, early on, but had the brakes put on it when the overwhelming demand became apparent.

Please, fight the urge to remove the quarter emblems from your project car. It’s not important, but it seems the theory of “universal emblem mounting holes” went right out the window if the pins are oriented differently. Did you have to re-drill to mount yours?

Kats, thanks for the great topic. I’m sure we are all looking forward to more detail from Mr. Matsuo’s letter. Very interesting.

[Mike B]

Mike ( I think you know this Chris ),

That's the post-October '71 'Fairlady' script emblem ( part no. 63805-E8725 ) that was introduced for the Domestic market L24-engined models ( Fairlady 240Z, Fairlady 240Z-L & Fairlady 240ZG ), and was placed before the '240Z' emblem to make a 'Fairlady 240Z' reading pair. This is the type that is fitted to my 240ZG. I don't think they fit into any conversation regarding truly early S30-series Z emblems.......

Did I mention that he's most definitely not from London....... :knockedou

Alan, the only reason I posted the picture of the Fairlady emblem is because Chris said he was looking for it earlier in the thread and I came across it yesterday while searching for a picture of the solid cast emblem. Yes, we are all VERY clear that you can confirm without a doubt that the guy that Chris got the emblem from is NOT from London. The only reason I repeated that is because it is how Chris identified the picture he was looking for.

-Mike

[Mike B]

Ron,

I'm also wondering what was the hold up with the 'Datsun' script emblems for the tailgate on the Export cars? Surely the use of the 'Datsun' name would have been settled well in advance of launch? Is this indicative of a last-minute swap from some other emblem or positioning?

Wouldn't only be the advertising guys that would be held up by all this either. I'm thinking of all the literature that went along with the Export cars ( owners manuals, workshop manuals, servicing data etc etc ) needing to be finalised before printing - although it seems to have been achieved by late 1969.........

Yes, let's not forget that the "Export" 240z also had Datsun hood and front fender emblems that were not solid cast, so following the logic of this thread, they were not a last minute change. Then why was the rear hatch Datsun script initially solid cast?

-Mike

[Mike B]

I posted pictures of brochures for export markets other than the U.S. and Canada.

Chris, unless they used the same brochure in other countries, the first picture you posted is a Canadian brochure.

-Mike

[26th-Z]

I think you're right, Mike. The orange one is from Norway and I think I have this picture mis-labeled.

[26th-Z]

I was cruising through Kats' site and following some of his links to other sites. Quite a lot of fun, actually. Most everything is in Japanese which requires some blind clicking without knowing where it will lead to. I stumbled upon a site with pictures of emblems. From what I can understand from the pictures, there are at least two different castings of the Fairlady Z emblem and three of the 432. Evidently, the red paint on the 432 emblem comes in three different shades. This seems to have taken place over a production span between 1969 and 1971.

[HS30-H]

Marketing was what Mr. Katayama was all about and it seems he was unfaltering in his efforts to establish a unique, recognizable, acceptable by the masses, roll off the tongue brand name to introduce a new model. The more I think about it, and the more I get enlightened by you guys, it is becoming more clear to me that the 240Z was “so much so” a distinctly different product than was built for the home market, yet so closely related, it really did need a different first name. Most of us, if we were put into Mr. Katayama’s position, would recognize the importance of this. 240Z is as good a name as any that I could dream up.

Ron,

I think the really clever marketing / product identity bit is that stylised letter 'Z'....... I'm not talking about the spoken "Zee" or "Zed", or even "Zet-to" - but just what that graphic device looks like. A small stroke of genius in car branding, without wishing to overstate it.

'Fairlady' I could live without. Doesn't really move me one way or another, but some people seem to have an almost pathological antipathy towards it - which, inverted, can turn it into a badge of honour I suppose. I even had one guy look at my ZG at a show and tell me that he thought 'Fairlady' sounded "gay". Looks like Katayama thought so too?

'240' - for which most of us say "two forty" - doesn't seem all that clever to me. As a marker of engine capacity it seems somewhat obscure. Is that two hundred and forty Decilitres? I guess '2400' would not have scanned so well. It kind of lays a trap for subsequent models or updates, in that expectations are that numbers will rise as time goes on - which may not always be feasible or necessary. Personally, when thinking of model and series, I think we end up with too many numbers anyway.

Please, fight the urge to remove the quarter emblems from your project car. It’s not important, but it seems the theory of “universal emblem mounting holes” went right out the window if the pins are oriented differently. Did you have to re-drill to mount yours?

No no no, the point is that my project car ( mid-1970 'S30' Fairlady Z-L becoming replica 'PS30-SB' Fairlady Z432-R ) always did have the early Domestic market solid round 'Z' pillar emblems. I didn't need to do any re-drilling. My project car came to me missing many items, and the early Domestic pillar emblems are not all that easy to find these days - hence the time it took to find them. However, they pop straight into the same two mounting holes on each side that the early Export '240Z' emblem pushes into. My point being that the Domestic and Export emblems are interchangeable, because the mounting holes and their positions are the same.

The pins are the same distance apart side-to-side ( allowing you to put them on the wrong side ) but the emblems themselves are - I believe - not completely symmetrical. Hence the LH and RH markings and part numbers.