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kats

New discovery; the story of solid/chrome Z emblem

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Hello everyone,

Today I want to share this short story about solid/chrome Z emblem.

I recently wrote an article for the CLUB S30(Japanese club) about solid/chrome Z emblem which I have been collecting since 2000.

Mr.Matsuo is an honorary member of this club, he read my article then he told us very interesting story which was previously not unveiled.

Can you guess the reason of making the chrome Z emblem?

Can you guess the reason of making the solid Z/Datsun emblem?

kats

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They made the chrome emblems because Her Majesty the 26th does not look good in white.

They made the emblems solid in the very early days because Her Majesty the 26th likes heavy jewelry.

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I would guess they made them solid and with a chrome Z initially because the molds were simpler to make than the indentations required for the white painted Z and the hollow back. They probably stopped making them solid to save on weight and material (expense). Maybe they went to the white Z to make the Z stand out more, so people would see it as a Z car and not specifically a 240Z? HLS30-00032 has solid chrome Zs on the quarter panels and a solid Datsun hatch emblem. The 240Z hatch emblem also has a chrome Z, but it is hollow. Have you ever seen a solid 240z hatch emblem Kats? Also, did they make Fairlady Z emblems that had chrome Zs or that were solid?

-Mike

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My guess:

The master positive wasn't completely ready when the first emblems were needed, so they finished up the absolutely necessary details(mounting pins), and made a set of temporary molds for use until the master positive could be finished and a master mold made- and put into use.

Will

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Kats, I would guess that only a limited number of these early emblems were produced initially because a final design decision had not yet been made. Another thought that comes to mind, would be the transition of production of the emblems, from a design studio to a mass production vendor.

I'm sure that there will be a different explanation for each emblem, complete with a personal flair. I look forward to the answer.

Edited by geezer

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Thank you every one, all of your answer are great, I can say all of you are correct!!(of cource Chris too:))

I do not know how many people in this thread can read Mr.Matsuo's letter but if you can, you will find there are lots of interesting facts.

The point is, Mr.Matsuo said "there was no time to paint white for the letter Z and design back of the emblem."

Sorry,I have to go for work.Will be continued soon.

kats

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I do not know how many people in this thread can read Mr.Matsuo's letter but if you can, you will find there are lots of interesting facts.

kats

Hi Kats:

Where would we see Mr. Matsuo's Letter ? Did you mean to include it in your Post?

FWIW,

Carl B.

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Kats,

Last minute name changes........... ?

The 'Fairlady Z' front side and deck lid emblems ( and '432' front side and deck lid emblems ), the round 'Z' quarter panel emblems, round 'Z' bonnet emblems and 'Nissan' deck lid emblems were all finished on time.

The special emblems for the 'Fairlady Z Export Model' took a little longer...... ?

:bunny:

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I took a solid chrome Z emblem to Long Beach several years ago and talked with Matsuo san about it. I'm anxious to hear what you have, Kats. BTW, I'm still working on the early advertising questions we had several weeks ago.

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Today I want to share this short story about solid/chrome Z emblem.

Can you guess the reason of making the chrome Z emblem?

Can you guess the reason of making the solid Z/Datsun emblem?

I took a solid chrome Z emblem to Long Beach several years ago........

Gents,

Just in case anyone is looking 'in' from 'outside' the clique, maybe we should make it clear that what we are discussing here are the details of the '240Z' emblems that were used on the side quarter panels of the early Export cars ( as opposed to something that had just a letter 'Z' ) and also the details of the 'Datsun' scripts seen on the same cars.

The Domestic market cars had different emblems, of course. Two of them were actually a stylised letter 'Z' on a round-shaped background.......

:classic:

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A picture is worth more than I car to type!

At lunch I'll take a run over to my storage place, and pull, picture, and post an early solid Quarter window 240Z emblem-though I think it would be great to have all of the S30 emblems pictured in one thread-I'll round up all of mine and start a new thread(so as not to hijack this one)-unless a search of the archives shows we already have one...

Will

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Gents,

Just in case anyone is looking 'in' from 'outside' the clique, maybe we should make it clear that what we are discussing here are the details of the '240Z' emblems that were used on the side quarter panels of the early Export cars ( as opposed to something that had just a letter 'Z' ) and also the details of the 'Datsun' scripts seen on the same cars.

I thought we were talking about the Solid chrome Z on the rear hatch 240Z emblem, as opposed to the later white painted Z.

We are discussing the emblems on the early US 240Z model. The two quarter emblems and the hatch 240Z emblem all had chrome Z's (in place of the later white painted Z's). The earliest quarter emblems and the Datsun script emblem on the hatch were also solid cast instead of the later hollow cast versions. I have not seen a solid cast 240Z hatch emblem, so I am not sure if any of those were ever made.

-Mike

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Just when I begin to think I don't know what I'm talking about, the fates cast their blessing on my karma. Kats is my angel... So much for the so-called "experts"!

I was searching through my files looking for that Fairlady emblem I bought from the guy in London who sold me the Datsun film from the Monte Carlo Rallye (can't find it) and I stumbled across this shot of the long lost Zulu emblem. Now, I know this is drifting from what Kats is talking about but I remember a conversation about the Zulu and here is something you are not going to see any day, let alone some days when you run into a chrome Z emblem!

First, let me post some pictures of what we are discussing - the infamous chrome Z. I'll let Kats discuss what he has learned about it. Then, the emblem that appears on the Z 432 (PS30) and I believe Alan gets credit for the photo. Finally, a photo of two prototype S30s - the targa top showing the Zulu emblem that I have been told is pure fictional lore from the "experts". I also want to point out that I have other pictures of the silver car behind the targa top car. Notice the 'D' hubcaps? This "car" is not a car at all. It is a clay. Alan, this should interest you. Notice the Nissan emblem on the quarter panel? I believe this is a round Nissan emblem, is it not? But check out the Datsun hubcaps.

post-4148-14150803999232_thumb.jpg

post-4148-14150803999329_thumb.jpg

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post-4148-14150804000407_thumb.jpg

Edited by 26th-Z

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We are discussing the emblems on the early US 240Z model.

Mike,

With respect, maybe you are discussing the emblems on the "early US 240Z model", but Nissan would - perhaps more accurately, and certainly more diplomatically - call them the 'early Export model emblems".

I wouldn't like to bet that all such emblems ended up being sent to the USA, any more than I would bet that all of the "first 500" HLS30s were HLS30Us......

:)

Alan T.

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I was searching through my files looking for that Fairlady emblem I bought from the guy in London........

A slander on proud Londoners! If it's the fellow I'm thinking of, he certainly wasn't from London. From either the houses of York or Lancaster, as I remember........

Then, the emblem that appears on the Z 432 (PS30) and I believe Alan gets credit for the photo.

To clarify, this emblem was not applied only to the pre vented-quarter 432 & 432R, but to the Fairlady Z and Fairlady Z-L models too. They were dropped when the pillars became vented, and the tailgates became sealed.

.......the Zulu emblem that I have been told is pure fictional lore from the "experts".

:)

Notice the 'D' hubcaps? This "car" is not a car at all. It is a clay. Alan, this should interest you. Notice the Nissan emblem on the quarter panel? I believe this is a round Nissan emblem, is it not? But check out the Datsun hubcaps.

Yes, I think you are right about the 'Nissan' emblem. You can see that on some of the other clay/prototype photos, I believe. I'm motivated to go and have a look now. I seem to remember it from the high-res. clay photos that Matsuo san gave me in London (?).

Those hubcaps are - of course - C10-series Skyline hubcaps with 'D' emblems added onto the centres. Keeping the bean-counters happy, no doubt!

Cheers,

Alan T.

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Alan, thanks for the correction. I should have said North American models, since my understanding is that all 1969/early 1970 production 240z export models went to the US and Canada. If that is not correct, what other countries received them?

My intent was just to clarify that the chrome Zs were on both the quarter emblems AND the 240z hatch emblem, since you omitted that in your post and Mr Camouflage thought we were ONLY discussing the chrome 240Z emblem on the hatch.

-Mike

Edited by Mike B

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Further to what Chris was talking about,

'NISSAN' logo quarter / pillar emblems, on a clay and on a prototype or pre-production S30:

post-2116-14150804001591_thumb.jpg

post-2116-14150804002166_thumb.jpg

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The emblem seen on this prototype with the steep windscreen rake doesn't show up very well. I always thought it said NISSAN. Is that the same as the one in your S30 prototype pic Chris? I think this was possibly the earliest, even before the body design was finalized.

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Alan, thanks for the correction. I should have said North American models, since my understanding is that all 1969/early 1970 production 240z export models went to the US and Canada. If that is not correct, what other countries received them?

Hi Mike,

A few very early production HLS30s were sent to Europe ( arriving in Belgium and Holland ) for road testing and evaluation. One of them took part in the 1970 Geneva motor show. More than one of them ( at least two, and maybe more ) became test mules for the European rally program.

When talking about early production '240Zs' it is also worth remembering the HS30s ( ie - RHD ) that we know Nissan made amongst the very first pre-production and production cars.

Cheers,

Alan T.

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Oh! Well, kick him out of London why don't ya! Is your first picture from Matsuo san? I have the same image - not cropped, of course.

I believe the emblem says Nissan, yes. I think all of our pictures of the silver prototype are of the same prototype taken on a roof top plaza.

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The close-ups were an attempt to focus on the 'Nissan' logo. Failed.

I think Matsuo san gives the same photos to different people and tells them they have an 'exclusive'........ :)

Do you want to expand on the Z signal flag emblem seen on the red Targa prototype? Do you reckon it was on the cards to actually be used....?

To go back to Kats' original question, I still think the big point is that they were working on certain emblems right down to the wire, when they should have had plenty of time to finalise them. That points - I think - to last minute changes.

We already know that the '240' part of '240Z' was something that came quite late, don't we? I think the rear hatch / deck lid 'Datsun' emblem was a last-minute change too - yes?

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Thank you,thank you everyone.

I am now in L.A. no lap top in my room,I have to pay crazy expensive money for the hotel business center.

I will post a letter from Mr.Matsuo, Carl.

Alan,that is right,last minute change is the point. I was wondering why Fairlady's embelms have withe Z from the begining of production? And this is just my guess,I think there is no solid emblem for Fairlady cars.(I need to ask and confirm this Mr.Matsuo soon)

Emblems for the Fairlady cars were settle down already well before the production,but for the Export model,Mr.K refused Fairlady's emblem and he wanted somthing alternative ("Datsun 240Z")

Nissan had to settle down about emblem,the car was about to be assembled in the production line...

I think this is not new for us is not it? However this is the key of existing Chrome/solid Export piller emblem and rear deck DATSUN emblem.

As Mr.Matsuo said, no time to paint,no time to hollow the back for the Export cars.

So,the letter "Z" was surposed to be painted white when the Export name had settled down I think, simply no time to do first.

On the other hand, Fairlady's emblems were hollowed and painted white Z from the bigining.

We have never seen/found solid/chrome Z for the Fairlady cars in Japan.

Chris,the cray model of S30,you can see big picture in my website.

AND please NOTE that the pillar round emblem,that is painted YELLOW and BLACK and RED and NAVYBLUE for the outer circle of the emblem.That is came from ZULU flag that you mentioned.

kats

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Alan,that is right,last minute change is the point.

Emblems for the Fairlady cars were settle down already well before the production,but for the Export model,Mr.K refused Fairlady's emblem and he wanted somthing alternative ("Datsun 240Z")

Nissan had to settle down about emblem,the car was about to be assembled in the production line...

Kats,

I'm thinking that the name of the Export model was not the main problem here, as we can see that the '240Z' name was already being attached to one of the LHD Export pre-production / prototype cars in late 1968~early 1969.......

Matsuo and his team would be needing to make sure that all the different Domestic and Export emblems would fit into the same holes on the bodies ( for obvious logistical reasons relating to production ) so I can imagine that factor needed to be decided quite early(?).

Please see the attached pictures, which came from the Miki Press 'Fairlady Z Story' book. It is obvious from the photos that the '240Z' and 'Datsun' names had been thought of already, but the quarter panel emblem shape is not yet finalised ( from the fake 'vent', and the '240Z' script lacking it's round centre backing...... ). We can't see the tailgate 'Datsun' italic script.

I think we still have not really got to the bottom of this story that we have all heard, where Katayama is said to have protested at the 'Fairlady' part of the car's name. Exactly when and how this happened still seems unclear, and I have certainly never believed the story that Katayama was personally taking 'Fairlady' emblems off of S30-series cars as they arrived in the USA. That may have been possible with some SP/SR models, but I can't believe it happened on the S30.

Anyone care to comment on that?

Alan T.

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post-2116-14150804010929_thumb.jpg

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