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kats

Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432

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Thank you Carl,

About test cars,I think they could be HLS30-00004 and 00005 but it could be different if HS30-00002/3/4 were made before the test cars.Mr. Uemura and Mr. Osawa told me the two cars were sent back Japan immidiately after the test.

Interesting, one of the test car got automatic transmission.But I can not confirm it from the video.Also In the video we can see one of the test car got rear deck aero spoiler during the test conducted.

Chris, about the emblem, did I tell you in the video, Mr.K and the crew members were talking about something standing at near the rear gate, in front of the area which is used for "emblems".

Seems to me they were talking about the emblem, the crew explaining(suggesting) emblems' details, and Mr.K was thinking about the emblems.

kats

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does anyone know what engine the z432r has in it. all i know is that it has a dual over head cam

The 'PS30-SB' Fairlady Z432-R had the same engine as the 'PS30' Fairlady Z432.

It was the 'S20' engine, which was derived from the Nissan 'GR8' and the earlier Prince 'GR8' race engines. The 'S20' was a two litre, 24-valve, twin-cam, crossflow six cylinder design, equipped with a six-branch stainless steel tubular exhaust manifold and triple 40PHH Mikuni-Solex side-draught carburettors. The 'S20' engine was first fitted to the 'PGC10' model Skyline GT-R, which debuted in early 1969. In standard production trim the S20 was rated at 160ps ( around 158bhp ).

Use the SEARCH function on this site and you will come up with plenty of info and pics of these engines and the cars they were fitted to. WE have discussed them many times before.

Have fun :)

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Basic engine was the Nissan/Prince( :P )S20. Not just a twin cam either. 4 valves per cylinder, 3 twin choke mikunis and 2 camshafts...and that is just up top!

Totally different to the Nissan L6 series of engines

...but then a 432 is far removed from just "a 240Z with a different engine"

Do a search on THIS forum and you will find THE most accurate information (in English) on these engines compared to anywhere else on the 'Net.

Welcome and Enjoy!

While I was typing I just knew you'd beat me to a replyLOL.

Cheers Alan :)

Edited by g72s20
pipped at the post!

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Hi TofuRunner, thank you Alan and g72s20 ,in Japan there were lots of optional parts for Zs from Nissan sports department.Cams/valve springs/webber etc. I think many Z432R owners installed these parts when they race it.

kats

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Thank you Carl,

About test cars,I think they could be HLS30-00004 and 00005 but it could be different if HS30-00002/3/4 were made before the test cars.

Hi Kats:

As the HLS30 and HS30 had different series numbers - why would it make any difference if HS30-00002/3/4 were made before the test cars?

FWIW,

Carl B.

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does anyone know what engine the z432r has in it. all i know is that it has a dual over head cam

Mo Val, eh? :D I'm right by March :) I'm telling you this so that if you see anyone trying to steal my hubcaps off my 280, you'll feel obliged to stop them ROFL

Edited by Danglybanger

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Hi Kats:

As the HLS30 and HS30 had different series numbers - why would it make any difference if HS30-00002/3/4 were made before the test cars?

Carl,

You need to go back to the thread that Kats started on the subject of the data he obtained from Nissan Shatai. Then you will ( hopefully ) see why the manufacturing dates of the earliest numbered HS30 bodies would tell us something about the body numbers of the North American test cars.

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From earlier threads - Kats said that the test cars were Pre-production or Primary Production prototypes #14 and 15

---------------------------from the last corrections to the referred thread - - ---

May 1969 - total 2 cars - one domestic, one export:

1 = S30-00001 (Factory prototype 1)

2 = HLS30-00001 (Factory prototype 2)

June 1969 - total 1 car - domestic:

3 = PS30-00001 (Factory prototype 3)

July 1969 - total 4 cars - two domestic, two export:

4 = HLS30-00002 (Primary Production prototype 1)

5 = S30-00002 (Primary Production prototype 2)

6 = PS30-00002 (Primary Production prototype 3)

7 = HS30-00001 (Primary Production prototype 4)

August 1969 - total 7 cars:

8 = S30-00003 (Primary Production prototype 5)

9 = S30-00004 (Primary Production prototype 6)

10 = S30-00005 (Primary Production prototype 7)

11 = PS30-00003 (Primary Production prototype 8)

12 = HLS30-00003 (Primary Production prototype 9)

13 = S30-00006 (Primary Production prototype 10)

14 = PS30-00004 (Primary Production prototype 11)

--------------------------------------------------------

Production for Sept of 69

9 Domestic

2 Exports

11+11 in Sept is 22. So the two exports in Sept had to be HLS30 0004 and 0005, with domestics filling in the blanks. Add any HS30 in Sept. and it becomes impossible for the test cars to fill positions 14 & 15, as the total would have been 22 or above going into Oct.

As mentioned the test cars arrived the 9/10th of Oct. so they couldn't have been produced after that.

Past that point, HLS30 0006, 0007 and 0008 arrived just after mid Oct. 69, in time to make the North American Show Car Circuit in late Oct. 69 - LA and NY being the first of the series then.

So I don't see how the build of HS30 0002/3/4 could effect anything..

I could be missing something...

FWIW,

Carl B.

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Hi Carl,

Yes that is the matter.You are correct Carl, I made a mistake. I thought the possibility of HS30-00002 and 00003 were made in Sep 1969 as only TWO export model.

In this case, they could be Primary production prototype #12 and #13 , but there are no place for HLS30s as a Primary production prototype #14 and #15.If that happned,#14 and #15 are Domestic models.

I say it is clear that two test cars are HLS30 and they are Primary production prototype #14 and #15. So it is natural #14 and #15 are HLS30-00004 and 00005.

Thank you,

kats

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I do not remember I show this before,maby once or twice I posted?

This scan tells us very interesting informations.Each car has each place(department) to belong and has subject to be used.

1 = S30-00001 Nissan Shatai (test drive)

2 = HLS30-00001 Q21 (production factory study)

3 = PS30-00001 Nissan Shatai (test drive)

4 = HLS30-00002 Nissan Shatai (test drive)

5 = S30-00002 Nissan Shatai (test drive)

6 = PS30-00002 K11 (registration)

7 = HS30-00001 Nissan Shatai (test drive)

8 = S30-00003 K11 (registration)

9 = S30-00004 F45 (K31 spare)

10 = S30-00005 F45 (K31 spare)

11 = PS30-00003 F45 (K31 spare)

12 = HLS30-00003 E81 (service; service manual? kats)

13 = S30-00006 F45 (for press/media)

14 = PS30-00004 F45 (K31 spare)

This report is dated 25th Jun 1969.

kats

post-3193-14150804068886_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150804069436_thumb.jpg

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Hi,

What does "K" , "F" , "Q" mean?

I guess these are name of groupe(department) in Nissan .

I attached this picture got from Mr.Matsuo with permission. "K-12" must be a design studio code.June 1969 is close my birth day;18th June 1969!

kats

post-3193-14150804072474_thumb.jpg

Edited by kats

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Hi,

What does "K" , "F" , "Q" mean?

I guess these are name of groupe(department) in Nissan .

I attached this picture got from Mr.Matsuo with permission. "K-12" must be a design studio code.June 1969 is close my birth day;18th June 1969!

kats

Kats, or anyone else with an interest, don’t let any of this post corrupt your views and opinions of events at Nissan Shatai. This is only derived from my experiences and only meant to be used for comparison and possibly help put a few pieces together.

I think you are correct in your assumption that “K”, “F”, and “Q” represent different departments. All these different departments would need an example(s) for their own specific purposes.

It is my belief that “Q” would represent the Quality Control (or similarly named) department. It was common practice for this department to keep an “example” of the completed frame-up assembly, in the Layout Room, in the Metal Shop. This “example” had been meticulously gone over during its construction to ensure exacting tolerances and other vital specifications. It was a bare shell kept for reference purposes only. No changes could be made to it. It was vital to have this example and it was an invaluable aid, for maintaining consistency in Frame-up and also when it came to setting up production jigs and other assembly fixtures, etc. Usually, after a number of changes had been made “on the roll” during the production run, it became necessary for another “master copy” to be made to reflect these changes and replace the previous example, which in turn was reintroduced into production. (I have personally requested a master copy from the Layout Room, to be used to build a vehicle for myself). Usually, individual “Masters” had to be made for different models, but not always. Some variances did not compromise the dimensional integrity.

Likewise, every other division, such as Paint, Trim, Chassis, Motor Line, Final Car, etc. would want access to one of these prototypes, whether pre-production or production, to use for their own needs.

Of course, Paint for the most part being a “one size fits all” operation, was relegated to referring to both the Metal Shop “Master” and the Trim example, to address their needs. For all intents and purposes they were shared.

I would venture a guess that “F” represents Factory, designating it for factory internal reference or employee training use, as I previously (above) alluded to and “K” seems to be assigned to “Design” or possibly Art” department?

The Service Garage & Manual preparation process would need an example available also. Several were designated for extended milage testing and others for meeting Federal Compliance Parameters (registration?).

Another guess I would like to make is that there was a need to design/build both LHD & RHD example prototypes right from the start, but labeling the end market was not vital information yet needed.

I enjoyed the videos. Your son will soon be able to reach the pedals and see out the windshield at the same time, before you know it.:laugh:

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Amen Ron!

Analyze what you design, build what you analyzed, test what you built and feed the results back to the analysis. Iterate until you get the same results from testing the as-built as you got from the analysis.

As Designed, Configuration Management, As Built. In the end, As Designed and As Built must be one and the same. Because any necessary changes to the design, have to be implemented with a Design Change Order first. Ideally changes are made to the Master one at a time, and everyone involved is notified - - but we usually don't live in an ideal world.

Hard to explain the fundamentals to people that haven't had the pleasure of working in a manufacturing or production environment; but even harder to make the people that do work there follow and apply them!!

Some of the reasons that the Factory Service Manuals and Parts Catalogs may or may not perfectly match your car.

There is a TV Show named "How It's Made". Produced by the Canadian Dept. of Education for Public Broadcast. It is a wonderful show and provides some insight to the world of manufacturing. A world that perhaps 95% of the people never see.

FWIW,

Carl B.

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I do not remember I show this before,maby once or twice I posted?

This scan tells us very interesting informations.Each car has each place(department) to belong and has subject to be used.

1 = S30-00001 Nissan Shatai (test drive)

2 = HLS30-00001 Q21 (production factory study)

3 = PS30-00001 Nissan Shatai (test drive)

4 = HLS30-00002 Nissan Shatai (test drive)

5 = S30-00002 Nissan Shatai (test drive)

6 = PS30-00002 K11 (registration)

7 = HS30-00001 Nissan Shatai (test drive)

8 = S30-00003 K11 (registration)

9 = S30-00004 F45 (K31 spare)

10 = S30-00005 F45 (K31 spare)

11 = PS30-00003 F45 (K31 spare)

12 = HLS30-00003 E81 (service; service manual? kats)

13 = S30-00006 F45 (for press/media)

14 = PS30-00004 F45 (K31 spare)

This report is dated 25th Jun 1969.

kats

Kats,

Please excuse me for cropping and highlighting a section of the document from Nissan Shatai concerning the Kojyo Shisaku and Seisan Shisaku body numbers etc, but I noticed something quite interesting......

'Kojyo Shisaku No.02' ( HLS30-00001 ) is noted as being 'HL270' type. Obviously '270' is that internal project tag for the S30-series Zs, and we know that 'H' usually referred to a large engine capacity variant ( L24 in this case ), whilst 'L' referred to Left Hand Drive.

Look down to 'Ichiji Seishi No.1' ( HLS30-00002 ) and we see that it is noted as being 'HL270U' type. I believe that the 'U' letter was consistently used ( even from early Bluebird days ) to denote North American market destination when paired with the 'L' prefix for LHD ( as opposed to the 'U' suffix used on certain RHD Export markets ).

Therefore I believe HLS30-00001 and HLS30-00002 can be seen to be different market variants to eachother. I believe HLS30-00001 may very well have been a 'Euro' market specification car, and I personally believe that it might have ended up at Nissan's competition department at Oppama, where it was prepared as a test car for the Rally campaign - being equipped with various sensors and recording equipment to download data whilst being driven on rally conditions.

It is a strong candidate to be the car tested by Rauno Aaltonen in January 1970 on the roads where the Monte Carlo Rallye had taken place. There is evidence to show that this car was a very early chassis number, and in order to be modified and equipped for the testing, and then shipped to the south of France in time for the testing commencing mid-January, it would have to have been so.

What do you think Kats?

Alan T.

post-2116-14150804080042_thumb.jpg

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great info HS30-H. . . I just confuse about the correction you made "Kojyo Shisaku No.02' ( HLS30-00001 ) is noted as being 'HL270' type. Obviously '270' is that internal project tag for the S30-series Zs, and we know that 'H' usually referred to a large engine capacity variant ( L24 in this case ), whilst 'L' referred to Left Hand Drive."

When its been modified as HL270?

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great info HS30-H. . . I just confuse about the correction you made "Kojyo Shisaku No.02' ( HLS30-00001 ) is noted as being 'HL270' type. Obviously '270' is that internal project tag for the S30-series Zs, and we know that 'H' usually referred to a large engine capacity variant ( L24 in this case ), whilst 'L' referred to Left Hand Drive."

I didn't make any correction. That's what is written on the document from Nissan Shatai that Kats posted a photo of in post #212.

I just added some thoughts / notes on it's contents. The prefixes 'H' and 'L' are known and accepted ( as used in the 'Katashiki' of the S30-series Z ), and the 'U' suffix - in this particular case signifying 'Hokubei Shiyo', where 'Hokubei' means 'North America' - was in use by Nissan / Nissan Shatai even before the S30-series Z was prototyped, and had been used on the 510-series Bluebird project. The 'U' suffix was then used as an official marker to signify a difference in market / destination versions of a similar type. Hence we saw for example 'HLS30U' models and 'HLS30' models, and HS30U' models and 'HS30' models. There were extra suffixes ( and even extra prefixes[/i[ in the home market 'Katashiki' ) that signify further differences in model types and variants.

It all becomes quite complicated when vernacular use turns into official use........

When its been modified as HL270?

'270' was Nissan's - and specifically Nissan Shatai's - internal reference for what we know as the S30-series Z, as relating to the 'job' they were doing on it. The whole project was known as the '270' project, before being given a chassis code & variant markers, and before being given either the 'Fairlady Z', 'Fairlady Z432' or '240Z' and 'Datsun' names.

You can see the '270' project code quite clearly on the documents that Kats obtained from Nissan Shatai, and posted on this thread.

I would guess that there is a very good chance that this ( perhaps somewhat random? ) project number might well have inspired the '240' in '240Z', when the 'Fairlady' name was not wanted for the north American market. I could certainly imagine that Nissan Shatai's staff, as well as the design team and others involved, may well have got quite used to using the project name '270' during the design and pre-production process. Maybe some of that stuck? It is only a short step to link such a three figure number to engine capacity, and therefore to really mean something. Pure speculation on my part, but it does not seem too far-fetched.

Alan T.

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I see, thanks for that . . .BTW, where did you see the document from Nissan Shatai that Kats posted a photo of in post #212. Wanna take a look at it to feed some info about Nissan.

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. . .BTW, where did you see the document from Nissan Shatai that Kats posted a photo of in post #212.

I saw it in post #212............

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Thanks Guys this thread has been a fantastic read, the data extract from the Nissan Shatai documents is brilliant. Special thanks to Kats for your efforts.

cheers

Steve

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Hi,

I have got a set of service slide film from Ebay.

7 reals, lots of pictures in there at this time only one real is opened so far.

I revice my website,

http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903/

Alan, your posts make me think HLS30-00001 is euro version , this film showing the car which is also used in service manuals,this car does not have an antenna.Is this a good sign of being euro is not it?This car must be the same the red one, used some other catalogs and manuals.Not for sure the VIN but must be very very early.

kats

post-3193-1415080514035_thumb.jpg

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Did "Euro" versions get the rubber trim on the bumpers? What we call the "Euro" bumper comes without the rubber trim, nor the holes to mount it.

The car in the picture also has no Emblems of any kind..

Interesting as usual - thanks Kats,

Carl B.

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Carl,

I love how you reference "How it's made". That is one of my favorite shows! What a great insight into the world of manufacturing. Makes you look at simple things from toothpicks to Mac trucks, etc. in a whole different light.

Brandon

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