L-series Engine

[Carl Beck]

Ya know, I've read Carl's history pages, and although I agree with the importance of PMC's contribution to design and production, but, in my opinion, Carl discredits the capabilities and accomplishments of the pre-merger Nissan. The graphic he created brings this point home, where he illustrates all the pre merger efforts going into a "Nissan Trash Can"

Yes, I too love the Z, but I'm not about to call everthing else trash.

Hi Victor (everyone)

Gee - I had to go back and look at that Graphic... the dividing line is 1964, yes prior to the Prince Merger that started in 65 and was finalized by Jan. 66, - - but if you read the accompanying article - at the end of 64 was when Goertz left Nissan and the Nissan 2000GT/Yamaha A550X joint project was canceled by Nissan.

I think you might have confused "Nissan's entire history" with the progression of the design of Nissan's line of sports cars. The graphic has to do with the sports cars design...

OR - from your statement, should I guess that you DO belive Mr. Goertz is the original designer of the Datsun 240-Z? In effect, that design wasn't thrown in the dumpster, but rather carried forward by Mr. Matsuo????

I guess that is possible - Mr. Matsuo tells us that he was originally thinking of another 4cylinder sports car and many would argue that his initial concept drawings do look more than a little like the Yamaha A550X.

According to Mr. Matsuo he never had seen anything related to that previous design effort.... thus the Nissan trash bin. If nothing from the previous effort was used - where else would it go? The Z Car most certainly did kill the roadsters as well.

The graphic is really intended to convey an overall concept that Nissan made a major break with the past, when they reorganized their internal design department beginning with 1965. Farther to show that with the introduction of the Datsun 510 and then followed by the Z Car - Nissan was also building a huge marketing and distribution system to support US Sales by 1970.

Nissan actually began to gather customer requirements for US customers in 1958. Below is part of a summary I drafted from among other places from the book:

NISSAN/DATSUN A History Of Nissan Motor Corporation in U.S.A 1960-1980

by John B. Rae.

Mr. Rae worked closely with Nissan Executives in Japan and Nissan's Historian as he worked on this book.

- - - - - part of summary ....starts...

1957 - Mr. Kawamata, as President of Nissan Motors, outlined his Strategic Plan For Nissan's Growth by exporting cars to the USA. (as did most of the Japanese Auto Industry - it wasn't just Nissan). Nissan needed to move to mass production, so that unit prices could be brought down and a domestic auto market could be grown in Japan.

Nissan makes a survey of American market prospects through two of its major Japanese trading corporations, Marubeni and Mitsubishi. In November of 57 Mr. Wakatsuki of Marubeni suggests that Nissan show its cars at the L.A. Import Auto Show in 58.

1958 - Mr. Yutaka Katayama, a Marketing Manager for Nissan Motors suggests and gains approval to enter Datsuns in the Moble Gas - Round Australia Trials. Finishing first in Class the little Datsuns draw world wide attention as well as add encouragement to Nissan's Export goals.

1958 March - In anticipation of sales to the US - Nissan sends Mr. Uno, General Manager of the North American Department, Mr. Hara, General Manager of the Planning Department and several engineers to the United States to initiate arrangements for testing Datsun cars and dealing with whatever technical problems that might come up. {Mr. Hara, later becomes Head of Nissan Design, and in 65 Mr. Matsuo's boss}

58 Oct. - Ray Lemke of San Diego, California becomes the first Datsun Dealer in the USA when he accepts a Datsun as part of his consignment of German cars from his Distributor, Woolverton Motors.

58 Nov. - Koichi Iwata of Nissan's Export Department brings two cars and a pick-up truck to the L.A. International Auto Show. The vehicles were modified in the hope of making them more suitable to the American market - compression was raised to 7.5:1 giving them 37HP from the 988cc OHV engine. (this was the British Austin engine).

Iwata, attending that show - reports back to Kawamata (President of Nissan) that the cars are TOOO SLOW and UNDERPOWERED for AMERICA... Kawamata and other Nissan executives are shocked to hear that!! Iwata's report results in the formation of a "Special Project Team" to study changes in design needed to make Datsuns more suitable for the American and European markets.

This Study and Planning, Iwata observes, was a very significant beginning. Much of the success of Nissan and other Japanese automobile manufacturers in the United States has been due to their willingness to study and respond to the conditions of the American market. Nissan far more than others except Volkswagon, grasp the seemingly elementary principle that if they wanted to sell cars in America, then they had better find out what kind of cars American's wanted to buy, and design and build accordingly.

- - - end summary extract..........

The "capabilities" and "accomplishments" of Nissan Motors Ltd. are really founded far more upon building manufacturing facilities, controlling production processes and marketing products though distribution and service systems, than it is based on the original technology or design of their previous products, many of which were licensed copies of others or outright purchase of the designs of others. Where designs were not licensed nor purchased - far too many were as g72s20 originally said; " "combinations of "inspiration" and economic pragmatism.""

FWIW,

Carl

[Dat 240K]

about the L series block as far as i new they were still using the p30 block for the rb series engines just differant heads is this correct?

[Carl Beck]

..snipped..

Of course there is an absolute wealth of things that most of us don't know about the history of these cars and the companies and individuals that made them. It is a great challenge, and any fresh information that we glean tends to open up the possibility of further questions we hadn't even thought of. And so it goes on......

But where the information is already at hand ( as in the case of the genesis of the Nissan 'L-gata' engine ) it would be nice if it was passed around properly and recorded correctly. But instead we have advertising copy and sales flannel taken as gospel. It is very frustrating.

Hi Alan (everyone):

I believe there are many reasons for that situation and it's not really advertising copy nor sales flannel from Nissan. Rather it was started with the first books written on the subject of the Z Car - many by English authors, who read a lot of the stories reported by the American Magazines and blended that with a dose of British destain for the Japanese Auto Industry.

From it's beginning the Japanese Auto Industry has been very closely linked to both the US and British Auto Industry. Japan started well behind either of the two countries - and in an effort to modernize they sought the technology and designs from the more advanced nations.

A quick review of DAT/Datson/Nissan/Datsun's progression may give a clue as to why so many authors believed that most of the things coming from Nissan were copies of everyone else products and/or the work of hired designers, produced by machine tooling and technologies imported from GB and the USA.

Indeed when they needed to start production of vehicles to supply Japan in 1925 - they invited the American Automobile Manufacturers to build plants in Japan. Then once they had the technology, the manufacturing processes, machine tools and a trained work force - they kicked the American manufactures out... This was seen by many as an all to typical and deceptive move by the Japanese.

The fact that Nissan re-labeled the designs and entire products of others as "Nissan" made them appear less than forth coming to eyes in the Western world. With designs purchased, licensed or simply borrowed Nissan consistently presented an image of itself that many in the auto industry found downright misleading. (see 1937 in the summary for example). This explains to a large degree why so many were quick to believe the Goertz Myth.. They simply did not see the revolution within Nissan that was taking place from 1965 forward.

What follows is my abbreviated summary - of the summary in Appendix B of:

THE GRAHAM LEGACY; Graham-Page from 1932

by: Michael Keller

Appendix B: by Bill McCall (covers the Nissan Motors connection)

for those interested it's a good read.. you can order a copy from Amazon.com

1912 - Satoro Hashimoto, upon his return to Japan from the U.S.A. - creates Kaishinsha Company to manufacture and sell D.A.T. automobiles.

1923 - the Great Earth Quake completely demolishes Japan's public transportation systems. American companies are subsequently invited to set up manufacturing facilities in Japan, by the Japanese Government.

1925 - At the invitation of the Japanese Government - Ford sets up production facilities in Yokohama.(average production 10,000 units per year).

1927 - At the invitation of the Japanese Government - GM set up production in Osaka (average production 10,000 units per year)

1927 - At the invitation of the Japanese Government - Chrysler had also set up a smaller assembly plant in Japan.

1931 - Tabata Imono Group purchases Kaishinsha - and starts production of Son of DAT -DATSON. A copy of the British Austin 7

1931 - Japanese Army invades Manchuria. Army realizes they must have durable trucks. and buys them from US manufacturers. Later in the war Nissan will open production facilities in Manchuria with slave labor.

1933 - Reorganization results in "Nissan Motors" formation. This industry leader in Japan sold 650 vehicles that year in Japan. Gisuke Aikawa, President of Nissan Motors , producing less than 500 vehicles that year - was eager to produce larger cars and trucks.

Aikawa was already familiar with American technological abilities, having previously imported engineering expertise, as well as a considerable amount of American machinery and equipment for earlier manufacturing endeavors (prior to his assignment at Nissan). From the beginning of Nissan Motor Company Ltd. several American engineers, led by William R. Gorham, played key roles in developing Nissan's operations.

1933 - The War Ministry and Ministry of Commerce and Industry in Japan call for a partial nationalization of the Japanese automobile industry.

1935 - The Japanese politicians draft legislation to assure the success of domestic automobile manufacturers.. and drive the American firms out of Japan. (the Automobile Industry Control Law).

1936 - February. Joseph Graham, of Graham-Page Motors Corp., meets Gisuke Aikawa, President of Nissan Motors Ltd. in Japan for the first time. Mr. Graham was in Japan representing L.O.F. in which he was a major shareholder as well. During this meeting, Graham suggests that Graham-Page would be interested in providing designs and equipment to Nissan. The brief meeting between Graham and Aikiawa would lead too a far-reaching agreement between the two disparate auto makers.

1936 - April 20... Nissan and Graham-Page sign an agreement.

Nissan purchases from Graham-Page:

- the design and the entire production line for the complete line of the 1934 Graham Crusader.

- all machinery, equipment, fixtures etc etc. for the Model 73 Engine

- since the engine was no longer in production in the US - Graham-Page (GP) was to produce and completely assemble 4 test engines.

- - GP to produce 500 cylinder blocks, 150 completely assembled, and the remainder in various stages of assembly.

- GP to design and produce a prototype stake body, cab-over Truck, and provide Nissan with complete engineering drawings, parts lists and specifications needed by Nissan to produce the truck.

- GP to provide technical assistance, engineering support to set up an operational production line.

Nissan corporate records indicate that throughout the negotiations they felt the Graham-Page representatives were sincere and ethical in the business dealings,. Representatives of the Michigan firm exhibited no fear or hesitancy in regard to helping the Japanese establish and guide their new industry.

While in the US - GP representatives introduced Nissan representatives to many of their prime suppliers. Deals were made with Spicer Manufacturing in Toledo, Ohio to supply Nissan with front and rear axles as well as transmissions, clutches and propeller shafts with universal joints. Nissan also contracted with Bohnalite to supply aluminium pistons.

1936 - May - Nissan began to set up an engine block production line. The firms initial attempts at casting engine blocks were totally unsuccessful. Multiple failures convinced Aikawa to once again seek outside help. Nissan contracted with Ferro Machine Casting Company. Nissan then purchased equipment needed to establish a new casting shop, and the American firm was farther required to instruct the Japanese engineers how to operate and maintain the new casting equipment. A team of six Ferro engineers and specialists were sent to Yokohama to assist Nissan with the start up. The single change Nissan made to the original Graham-Page design was superficial. The Ferro name and numbers were removed from the left side of the block and NISSAN was cast into the right side. Construction of the new casting facility was begun in the fall of 36 and completed in 37. The first block was cast on March 25th, 1937.

1937 - The complete Graham-Page assembly line, tooling, equipment, technical drawings arrive in Japan and are set up for Nissan's production of the Crusader. By March of 1937 Nissan had completed the manufacture of two Nissan Model 70 passenger sedan and one Model 80 Truck. By years end 490 automobiles were produced.

To convince the Japanese military that they had the capacity to build sturdy and dependable trucks suitable for military use Nissan produced a 27 minute film to illustrate how the Model 80 Trucks were manufactured.

Proudly in the film, the new Nissan factory is shown on the banks of Tokyo Bay, the interior scenes were of the design studio. The large studio contained full size drawings of the truck as well as clay models and wooden bucks; the clear impression to be drawn was that the truck was entirely of Nissan design. The next images revealed the research and quality control labs established by Graham-Page staff, the same impression intended.

The foundry views showed a detailed progression of crankshaft manufacture, from forging to trimming to balancing. Engine blocks are shown being bored, heads planed and tolerances checked. Huge American made 1,500 ton Hamilton presses are shown pressing roof sections, fenders, hoods and frame rails.

The engine that came to Nissan from Graham-Page, an 84HP, in-line, seven main bearing, 224cid six cylinder provided the heart of Nissan's commercial line for several decades, as well as the Japanese Army's Trucks.

1941 - Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, which ultimately leads to the total devastation of Japan.

1945 - Japan surrenders to the Allied Forces and General Douglas MacArthur assumes leadership of the country as Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers (SCAP).

1947 - Dr. E. Edwards Deming becomes Advisor in statistical quality control techniques to the SCAP.

http://www.deming.org/theman/biography.html

1949 - Nissan receives permission from SCAP to resume production, Production of trucks using the Graham-Page engine (previously tab'd the model A by Nissan) are primary products.

1950 - At the invitation of the Union of Japanese Scientists and Engineers, Dr. Deming becomes Teacher and Consultant (1950, 51,52, 55, 60 and 1965)

The Deming prize was instituted by the Union of Japanese Scientists and Engineers and is awarded each year in Japan to a statistician for contributions to statistical theory. The Deming prize for application is awarded to a company for improved use of statistical theory in organization, consumer research, design of product and production.

{ Dr. Deming becomes the recipient of the Second Order Medal of the Sacred Treasure, from the Emperor of Japan, 1960, for improvement of quality and of Japanese economy, through the statistical control of quality.}

1951 - Nissan introduces it's first four wheel drive vehicle - modeled after the US Jeep's and using the same Graham-Page engine the vehicle is known as the 4W-60 and the 4W-70. A similar but larger vehicle using the same engine was introduced in 52. The vehicles were the forerunners of the Nissan Patrol.

1953 - Minor changes to Nissan's "A" engine, increased HP to 95HP at 3,600RPM - this became the Nissan "N" engine.

1955 - Nissan hired American automotive engineer Donald D. Stone to increase the horsepower of the "N" engine. By increasing the bore and incorporating a few other changes he was able to produce a 242 cid engine with a 105HP rating. This engine was designated the "NC" engine and had an "L-head" design, it was used for four years by Nissan.

1957 - Mr. Kawamata, as President of Nissan Motors, outlined his Strategic Plan For Nissan's Growth by exporting cars to the USA. (as did most of the Japanese Auto Industry - it wasn't just Nissan). Nissan needed to move to mass production, so that unit prices could be brought down and a domestic auto market could be grown in Japan.

- - - - - -end summary -- -

By the way - Mr. Gorham, Mr. Graham and Dr. Deming are all highly regarded in the Japanese Auto Industry to this day - and that is not just another American bias. I wonder, in your review of the books and articles wrtten by the Japanese authors - how many of them write about these men and their contributions to Nissan.

While Mr Hiroshi Iida may well outline in his book - how he designed the Nissan L series engine - the simple fact that it was seen by most as an all but exact copy of the MB/Prince design - could be the reason most authors didn't bother to look for who within Nissan was responsible for the copy, but knowing Nissan's past practices - they simply stated that they saw it as a copy.

Perhaps - if Mr. Lida has outlined what parts of his design were awarded patients - that perception of it being a copy could be over-come.

FWIW

Carl

[HS30-H]

Hi Alan (everyone):

I believe there are many reasons for that situation and it's not really advertising copy nor sales flannel from Nissan. Rather it was started with the first books written on the subject of the Z Car - many by English authors, who read a lot of the stories reported by the American Magazines and blended that with a dose of British destain for the Japanese Auto Industry.

Good morning Carl.

You yourself repeat advertising copy and sales-team motivational speeches as though they contain nothing but facts. I can see this kind of one-market bias any day of the week on zhome.com - most notably in the speeches of one man ( Mr Yutaka Katayama ).

I think you will find that most of the written disdain ( "destain" is surely some kind of cleaning fluid?? ) for the Japanese auto industry found in Britain was post-war, and has to be taken with a giant pinch of salt. Much of it appeared to be a legacy of wartime propaganda that portrayed the Japanese as some kind of sub-standard species. I believe American propaganda at the time was busy convincing the American public ( and its servicemen ) that Japanese people would not make good pilots because they could not see well enough.

As we sow, so shall we reap. Some of that prejudice and downright racism still lives on. I even get a slight sniff of it in your writing.

The fact that Nissan re-labeled the designs and entire products of others as "Nissan" made them appear less than forth coming to eyes in the Western world. With designs purchased, licensed or simply borrowed Nissan consistently presented an image of itself that many in the auto industry found downright misleading. (see 1937 in the summary for example). This explains to a large degree why so many were quick to believe the Goertz Myth.. They simply did not see the revolution within Nissan that was taking place from 1965 forward.

All auto manufacturers during that period were purchasing, licensing, cribbing or downright stealing the designs of others. Don't try to make out that the Japanese were the only ones doing it. Awkward questions could be asked of many American and English auto manufacturers in relation to the same period and earlier.

You always seem to point at that mid-Sixties period as some kind of Year Dot, but in reality you can't point at a single period and make out that it was the only "revolution" in Nissan's history. There were many.

Thanks for 'summarising' some of The Graham Legacy for us. I'm sure that will be of great interest to those who don't know about that period. But why did you stop where you did - just when it was all getting closer to some bigger changes at Nissan, and at a period when their dealings with Austin came to the fore? Is that judicious editing?

To sum it all up, here's a quick precis of events so far for people who like things nice and concise:

*Japan is a primitive land, closed to the outside world.

*'The Black Ships' from America arrive, forcing Japan to open its ports or face the consequences.

*Americans teach Japanese about everything.

*Nasty thankless Japanese take all the help from the Americans and then throw them out.

*Silly Japanese take themselves too seriously and threaten the old World Order. They want a slice of the Empire Cake.

*America puts Japan in its place. Japan devastated.

*America rebuilds Japan out of kindness and charity.

*Nasty thankless Japanese steal American technology and designs and don't give any credit.

*Yutaka Katayama arrives in USA to sort it all out.

*Carl Beck sells his "Porshay", and buys "An American Car, Made in Japan".

OK - that's more than slightly satirical, but this deep historical mining of the overall history of the Japanese auto industry ( with added bias ) is leading us further away from the core truth of this thread's subject. YES the Nissan 'L-gata' engine cribbed some design details from the products of other manufacturers - but so what? This wasn't outright stealing. Nobody sued. It was engineers doing what engineers have always done. None of them existed in a vacuum.

If you start splitting hairs and trying to break down this kind of activity into 'The Japanese' and 'The Americans' etc you will just end up in mire. How about we turn our 'scopes on American race engine history for example? That might be dangerous. We would soon see that Harry Miller pinched the design of the Grand Prix Peugeots, or that the Frontenac Ford conversion ( can't get more Old School American than a 'Fronty Ford' ) was designed by a Japanese-American called Sakayama, who copied some of Louis Coatalen's ideas which he had incorporated into the 1912 Sunbeam race engine. We could trace a huge percentage of high-performance auto engine design principles back to four men: Ernest Henry, Paulo Zuccarelli, Jules Goux and Georges Boillot - but they are hardly household names are they? None of were American either - so does that mean American engineers 'copied' them? Is the American nation and society itself a pastiche of ideas taken from other countries and other civilisations? Where do we stop all this?

By the way - Mr. Gorham, Mr. Graham and Dr. Deming are all highly regarded in the Japanese Auto Industry to this day - and that is not just another American bias. I wonder, in your review of the books and articles wrtten by the Japanese authors - how many of them write about these men and their contributions to Nissan.

Just about all of them Carl. But then you wouldn't know that, as you don't ever seem to have more than two Japanese publications in your bibliographies.

In fact Gorham, Graham and Deming are just some of the many non-Japanese figures that the Japanese automotive press and Japanese authors have covered IN DEPTH down the years. Again, you don't seem to have much in the way of Japanese source material from the 1960s and 1970s - so you will surely not have noticed the extensive coverage of WORLD automotive history that the Japanese press contained during the period that Matsuo and his team and Iida and his team were doing their 'stuff'. You don't seem to be able to comprehend that these men were influenced by ALL the products and ideas that came before them ( whether they realised it or not ) in just the SAME way that any other designer or engineer has ever been.

While Mr Hiroshi Iida may well outline in his book - how he designed the Nissan L series engine - the simple fact that it was seen by most as an all but exact copy of the MB/Prince design - could be the reason most authors didn't bother to look for who within Nissan was responsible for the copy, but knowing Nissan's past practices - they simply stated that they saw it as a copy.

I must say that I find this particularly small minded of you Carl. First of all, Hiroshi Iida hasn't written a book - and he hasn't been beating his chest and telling everybody how wonderful, innovative and world-changing his work was. The information I gave was taken from an interview that Nostalgic Hero magazine conducted with Mr Iida, and Mr Iida seems to be a particularly modest, unassuming and realistic interviewee. But you wouldn't know any of that because you obviously haven't got any idea of the substance of the article. You appear to be happy to judge him without hearing what he had to say.

Perhaps - if Mr. Lida has outlined what parts of his design were awarded patients - that perception of it being a copy could be over-come.

Perhaps if you read the words of Mr Iida ( Iida begins with a letter 'i' when Romanised, please don't start it with a letter 'L' ) you might be better placed to judge. I don't believe that the Nissan 'L-gata' module design ( by the way - Mr Iida was the leader of a team effort ) resulted in any patents being filed by Nissan ( I presume you mean 'patents' when you write "patients" ) but is that the way that you judge a good, solid workaday engine design? I don't think anybody has ever claimed that it was an earth-shattering addition to the world of automotive engineering. It was however a bloody good effort for the short time that it was developed in, and they had the foresight to incorporate a number of core design features that would ensure a long and varied commercial use of the design. The reputation of figures such as Yutaka Katayama were built on foundations such as the work of Iida and his team, rather than the other way around ( which seems to be what you would have us believe ).

I'm interested in the 'Back Room Boys', and I'm very happy to see them being interviewed after so long in the shadows. Seems to me that you are scornful of them without even having heard what they have to say for themselves. That's not very scholarly.

Alan T.

[Carl Beck]

Good morning Carl.

You yourself repeat advertising copy and sales-team motivational speeches as though they contain nothing but facts. I can see this kind of one-market bias any day of the week on zhome.com - most notably in the speeches of one man ( Mr Yutaka Katayama ).

Hi Alan:

Actually Mr. Katayama's speech was delivered to the Nissan Emplyees at Nissan USA HQ - not to the sales staff. It was reported in John B. Rae's book, and was never advertising copy.

Nonetheless, your resentment of Mr. K strikes me as misplaced.

To sum it all up, here's a quick precis of events so far for people who like things nice and concise:

*Japan is a primitive land, closed to the outside world.

*'The Black Ships' from America arrive, forcing Japan to open its ports or face the consequences.

*Americans teach Japanese about everything.

*Nasty thankless Japanese take all the help from the Americans and then throw them out.

*Silly Japanese take themselves too seriously and threaten the old World Order. They want a slice of the Empire Cake.

*America puts Japan in its place. Japan devastated.

*America rebuilds Japan out of kindness and charity.

*Nasty thankless Japanese steal American technology and designs and don't give any credit.

*Yutaka Katayama arrives in USA to sort it all out.

*Carl Beck sells his "Porshay", and buys "An American Car, Made in Japan".

Just too funny Alan - you crack me up.

I'll ask and/or suggest again, as I have many times before - why don't you publish the entire story of the Z Car as you see it. I'm sure we would all find that far more interesting...

FWIW,

Carl

[aarc240]

snipped...

I'll ask and/or suggest again, as I have many times before - why don't you publish the entire story of the Z Car as you see it. I'm sure we would all find that far more interesting...

All in favour please vote! Should be downright fascinating.

[HS30-H]

Hi Alan:

Actually Mr. Katayama's speech was delivered to the Nissan Emplyees at Nissan USA HQ - not to the sales staff. It was reported in John B. Rae's book, and was never advertising copy.

So there were no sales staff at Nissan USA HQ that day? Wow.

I think you'll find that John B. Rae reported the speech as transcribed in the 'Datsun News' publication of late 1969. I presume that this internal company news sheet was seen by sales staff as well as others?

When I refer to "advertising copy" I am of course referring to some of the lines from NMC-USA endorsed advertising that you quote on zhome.com

Nonetheless, your resentment of Mr. K strikes me as misplaced.

I don't have any "resentment" of Katayama as a man. I have a huge amount of admiration for him. If I "resent" anything it is the bad balance of reporting, and the cult of personality that has surrounded the man and his activities to the exclusion of virtually all others. I find the whole thing rather strange - but perhaps it is an American cultural phenomenon?

Nobody seems willing to bring up any suggestion that he may have made mistakes that lead to later trouble for Nissan, or that he might have inherited the credit for the hard work of others. All great men make mistakes, so I don't see why it is taboo to discuss them.

Funny how you are ready to pounce at any questioning of Katayama's saint-like status, but also ready to damn the work of Hiroshi Iida and his team in their own particular field of blue collar work without even looking further than my posts on the subject. I don't think you even knew Iida's name until it came up on this site - did you?

I'll ask and/or suggest again, as I have many times before - why don't you publish the entire story of the Z Car as you see it. I'm sure we would all find that far more interesting...

Why would we need that when we have zhome.com? After all, this is the story of "An American Car, Made In Japan".

:classic:

Alan T.

[moonpup]

Originally Posted by HS30-H

*Carl Beck sells his "Porshay", and buys "An American Car, Made in Japan".

Originally Posted by HS30-H

Why would we need that when we have zhome.com? After all, this is the story of "An American Car, Made In Japan".

Just chaps your @$$ doesn't it.

GET OVER IT

[HS30-H]

Just chaps your @$$ doesn't it.

Not really. I think it is funny.

I know what "chaps" your "@$$" though, so I keep it up.

You tw@.