EScanlon

Aye! It didn't look like it had ever been worked in. Beautiful and decidedly desireable place, but it does look a bit like Paris Hilton's Garage. i.e. It's been designed to be the best, but it hasn't been worked in. It's supposed to be spotless for her sake, but have everything for whatever gent she may be entertaining to feel at home. And at that point, who would want to leave? Enrique

Except that the "Post Reply" button is all the way to the bottom of the "page" and you have to page / scroll down to get to it. By keying on "Quote" it then takes you to the same message page. More steps? Yes, but instead of scrolling down to FIND the button, it's right there at the bottom of the post you are reading. The Ctrl-A, is a small keystroke to pay, and the very next keystroke, whether the Delete button or the first letter of what I type, will delete the previous and highlighted text. I'm just lazy. E

Hoo Boy, you're not going to open up that can of worms are you? Amongst a group of fanatical car enthusiasts who trounce on posts such as this with the vengeance of ant-stompers at a picnic that accepts the likes of you and I????? I'll accept that I can only speak for myself, but as Groucho Marx said "I wouldn't want to be a member of one that would accept me." (I know it's messed up, post the correction, and QYB). To save time and bandwith, I couldn't agree with you more. Yup, ditto. Saw the gas door and it's a perfect example of why metallics, candies, pearls, and other translucent style paints need to be painted mounted together and not on the shop table. I don't mind the V8 either, kinda fits the overall design. Don't know enough about engines to discuss them further. Enrique

Cheat like the rest of us. Click Quote on any of the messages, once in the reply form, click into the message body, press Ctrl-A, Delete, and start typing. E

As far as I know, according to Charlie Osborne I received one of the last two to come out of Japan. Check my gallery for the pictures of them installed. http://www.classiczcars.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8949&sort=4&cat=500&page=1 E

I'll have to chime in and agree with you two. I personally think the guy did a pretty good job of it. While I can understand the general dislike for this car exhibited by most of the posts, I also fail to see why it is so abhorrent to the rest of you. It's different, not necessarily what I would do, but I would much rather see this done to it than see it in a junkyard. Like the comment I made years ago regarding modifications, this definitely ain't no Tyson in a miniskirt, but it's no Caroline Cossey (Tula) either. Enrique

HEY HEY HEY, no offense intended Vicky, but believe me, even the thought of this, is painful to the rest of us males. So, could you just PM him with this type of comment? Wince Wince...... E

Will, in re-reading through the post, I realized that I had misunderstood Bambi's comment. What I meant about not being a Wirgin, is that you probably have caught yourself with the e-bay overpay virus. As far as waiting for your repro headlight covers, I'm still in for at least one pair (depending on whether I keep the Orange Z). E

I also plead Guilty as Charged. As far as Will's charge, I don't think he's no Wirgin neither. E

With all the discussion about Headlight Covers, a Factory Option for the Early Z's, I thought we could "pool" regarding what we think this auction will end up selling for: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4534911997&fromMakeTrack=true Since it's already at $350US, let's take a poll as to what it finishes at. E Posted 3-11-05, link will disappear after 6-05

It's the sound of his chair as he leans forward to type............. If I Recall Correctly E

Alan: The whole point on the language assimilation of words was to emphasize what I had written in my original post, that a translation from one language to another, given the ideological differences involved and further exacerbated by the assimilation of foreign words that may or may not be assimilated with their original meaning (from the original language) that brochures and other printed items will have, and do have, problems. Where you write: "( the fact that he wrote what translates as "Original Z" rather than "240Z", as the translation had it )?" I feel is a good example of what another translator would have done differently. As far as what linguists say, I'm not quoting anyone, just giving a "broad rule of thumb" that was given to me years ago to denote the mechanism withn a language with which it makes new words. I don't speak Japanese, nor read it. Therefore, as I stated, I can only go on my ASSUMPTIONS, which, from what you type may be in error. The examples I cited were mostly in other languages other than Japanese. I can bore you to tears with this kind of example in Spanish, as that is what I translate on a somewhat professional basis (i.e. for pay), but other than the two I mentioned (ice cream and design), I have no clue. As far as the "Japanese Copy" BS you cite, I have no idea why you would bring that up. If anyone can infer that from what I've written, then "methinks the lady doth protest too much). Personally, I know that it is just that, BS, so I wouldn't take that side of a discussion. Ok, in my opinion, WAKE UP BAMBI! Enrique

As I've said before, owning a Z is like dating a very beautiful and very tall woman. It's fun to do go out with her once in a while, but you must be extremely confident of yourself and devoted to carry it out for a long time. There will always be "cute little" women out there that will entice you to stray. But, once you've basked in the envy and admiration you receive from others who see you with that woman, it's a rush like no other. You find you love the woman more and want to take her out more often. A "cute little" woman is good too. However, now you're living within the "box", and doing what everyone else is doing. Me, I'll take my Z. While there are other cars out there that have ~some~ appeal, nothing compares to the Z. Aside from all that, the reference to the Neon's side-impact rating is a non-sequituur. The Z, let's face it and admit it, as far as the Early Z's go, has a woefully and incredibly LOW Impact Safety. That's simply because the cars were NOT built with the safety standards inherent in their design that cars built in more current times have. You definitely DO NOT want to be in ANY kind of accident in a Z. Now there will be some who'll try to nit-pick this, but if you've checked out the structure, sheet metal and safety crumple zones in a Z, you'll know that they're simply not there for a "safe" accident. (What an oxymoron!) So, if current technology as far a safety is the issue, or higher horsepower, or handling or...... Why not buy a 350Z? They DO have everything mentioned. Then at least you'd still be in the family. Enrique

BOLD EMPHASIS MINE I help do translations for a chain of Spanish speaking radio stations as well as for my company's brochures and pamphlets. What I'm referring to, isn't the assimilation of words in other languages into yours to come up with a new word, which is what you cited and what Matsuo did. The word DESIGN, and ZEITGEIST are from outside languages to English and Japanese respectively. The label making machinery that I'm referring to, is the codification or rules if you will by which a language creates from WITHIN itself a new word. In English a Shear is a tool used to clip hair quickly, a ShearER is someone who uses shears. In Spanish, a dog is a perro, and a street is Calle, a stray dog, that is one that lives on the street is a perro callejero. That's not the kind of rule that I'm referring to. All languages have some form of this rule. The ability to modify a word in use to make a new word. The assimilation of words outside the language (foreign words) to then become a "new" word in that language, that steps outside the new word mechanism inherent in the language, is what I'm referring to. Some people have called this the "bastardization" of the language. Using Zeitgeist, Salsa, in English, and Design in Japanese (and also the phonetic way they say Ice Cream) are assimilations of a foreign word instead of creating from within. Spanish, Japanese and others, have more difficulty in creating from within, so they assimilate from other languages. It is this that under the "broad rule of thumb" that I was given that says they're "dead". No, they're not dead, but they DO borrow from outside. 2¢ Enrique

Heck at 400, I'd bid that just to get a set of TRUE wire wheels. Sadly GOOD wire wheels aren't commonly available. The good ones require truing and tightening by a spoke shop, and sometimes require an inner-tube. It's not unusual to see them get almost destroyed in situations that wouldn't faze you with a mag or steel wheel. But like Ricklanda, I would love to find a pair. Too bad that the shipping from NC to WA for the car just to get the wheels would more than double the $400 reserve. Anyone else out there have a set of TRUE wire wheels they're willing to part with? Enrique

Re: the phrase you phonetically wrote out "Shodai Z design kaihatsu shuki" , I note the use of the word DESIGN in there, which I find to be too coincidental with the use of the term in the English to ignore it's use in the Japanese. That, to me, implies that the Japanese language has assimilated the word Design into it's language to represent a previously un-labeled concept. (All words are labels, whether as names or as descriptions or modifiers.) That helps to highlight how a concept idea expressable in one language is such a new item that the receiving language does not have time to generate it's label according to it's rules and must therefore assimilate an "external" word in order to have it's new word. This is, as a very broad rule of thumb, the differentiating factor between a "live" language and a "dead" language that differs from the "living people use it" and "no one alive speaks it", which are commonly thought to be the definitions of live and dead languages. Spanish, apparently Japanese, and other languages are "dead" in that the label making machinery inherent in their structure is not set up or operational. (The word for television in Spanish is television, radio is radio, although originally it was referred to as Receptor de Difusora de Radio and later Radiodifusora, essentially Receptor of Radio Wave Diffusion / Radiodiffuser.) Whereas English is definitely a "live" language, it generates new words, concepts and meanings quickly and prolifically. So much so that it isn't unusual to have 2 translators with different backgrounds come up with different translations (into English) from the same original language. (I won't even get into translating FROM English into other languages, that is a true nightmare, as the general TONE of the piece can affect WHICH part of the piece to emphasize, and what words get used. This can REALLY make things difficult. Now as far as the personal viewpoints of the individuals involved in the writings you cite, only if you can empathize with the author's position will you perceive some of this, let alone correctly. Your point being made about the general "attitude" of the writer, is something that unless you've experienced the culture / background of the individual (when referring to language translations) will you gleam an understanding of the way they think. 2¢ Enrique

With all due respect to everyone that has posted to this, I'd suggest we call it a DISCUSSION. Granted, it's heated and pointed, but let's try to keep it as a discussion and not an argument. An argument implies that there will be a "winner", and I can't fathom any one viewpoint here being assailed as the one that's more correct than the other. Alan and Carl, I respect the knowledge and fervor that you both demonstrate in your posts. I've not had the opportunity to meet either one of you, but hopefully we can share a libation or two. When I first searched the internet to research my (finally) purchase of my Z, your viewpoints were very informative and pleasant reading. Same goes to all the others who've contributed with information, questions and even clarifications, they've increased the value of this type of discussion. However, I feel that this may be an issue that is very seriously tainted not only by the lack of total information available from Nissan, but also the haphazard manner in which they released it, further exacerbated by piecemeal agglomeration by well-meaning individuals. Any compilation of data will always have the compiler's editorial bias built into it. This is why this sharing of information, regardless of your position on the issue, is so important. This is what allows us to sift through the data and hopefully agree on some and agree to disagree on others. Where some people can point out numerous instances where Nissan said this or that, others can point to other instances where contradictions APPEAR to exist. They may simply be two different views of the same diamond from two different facets. In a way, this is why politics gets so heated. (and no, I'm not alluding to anything). What is plainly evident to some, seems to be a veiled and hidden agenda to others. One point that we must take into consideration, any statement that Nissan released in the U.S., I'll guarantee had been reviewed by Marketing Analysts, Advertising and Management to ensure that the public "persona" it portrayed to the U.S. customer highlighted AND emphasized how much was being done for the U.S. with the U.S. in mind. This is a simple marketing tactic. I use it at trade shows in other countries, and so do the 2-3 dozen Int. Sales Mgrs. I know. So, very bluntly, any pamphlet, brochure, catalog or hype expressed in the U.S. by Nissan will have that filter applied to it by Nissan. While that may seem to nullify any argument regarding whether the Z was targeted at the U.S., it doesn't. Under the note I'm taking above, I'm presuming that Nissan would have similarly tainted their pamphlets, brochures, catalogs and hype to ANY other country in the same manner. But then the "world" view needs to be considered. I seriously doubt that anyone can provide a copy of a sales brochure, press release, catalog, etc. that was provided by Datsun with regards to the Z that went UNCHANGED from it's initial printing in Japan, that was then distributed WORLDWIDE. If you remember that for the most part, as far as the Earth is conscerned, only JAPAN speaks / writes in JAPANESE. That's not to say that there aren't a lot of Japanese people living in...., and that..... My basic point is that OUTSIDE of Japan, Datsun would have had the brochure not only translated into the local language, but also modified and adjusted to fit THAT countries morés and laws. That is just too basic to need mentioning in a sales environment, but may or may not be something that the members of this group would be aware of. No insult intended, but it's a fact. Every person that I've spoken to about translating ANY of the Oriental Languages from the WRITTEN Oriental to YOUR SPOKEN language has added, in one manner or another, that the translation is THEIR take on it. Even Alan has done so. That is because the WRITTEN Oriental Language involves a completely and totally DIFFERENT symbology than "Western" languages, and yes I'm including Cyrillic, French, Spanish, Greek, English, etc, but NOT the Arabic languages, they have their own symbology. When you encounter the semantic and ideological incongruities when translating between languages YOU speak, you can understand this fully. However, those of you who don't speak another language, you need a different way of perceiving that difficulty. For those of you in the East Coast a BUBBLER is something very common in public parks and areas. The concept of a DRINKING FOUNTAIN seems not only stupid, but down-right dangerous. Who would want to drink water that is just being recirculated over and over again, in the open air to catch whatever crap falls into it. Yet to a person on the West Coast, this is perfectly natural and your bubbler is something you stick in an aquarium to aereate the water. I've been told that in Australia, the expression "Keep Your Pecker Up!" is equivalent to the Americans "Keep Your CHIN Up!". Where the Aussie term could safely be used amongst two pals, in a bar crowded with gorgeous women (that's a given), in a room full of children, it may cause you problems. And if you think about it, the American term in those same situations may have the situation's consequences reversed. Even books written for those individuals in a group that spans multiple countries, will still exhibit a taint of self-aggrandisement, self-importance, and self-assurance. NO ONE ADVERTISES THEIR FAILURES. Most people and businesses would never allow a "sanctioned" publication that threatened to shatter / damage / impugn their public image. That it happens is the argument between celebrities and the press. if the celebrity has a hand in it, you can bet that the negative is eliminated. While you may laugh at the idea of buying Michael Jackson's Auto-Biography, I would hazard a guess that he's not going to describe anything even remotely conceivable as what he is perceived as doing and being charged with. Pick up a trash journal...... or whatever reputable [/iB] magazine / newspaper / group you choose and then try to decide which one to believe. THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE DISCUSSING. There is far too much intelligence on this post, to have it ruined because we can't, as intelligent people, agree that we WILL HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS of the same diamond we are all interested in. Namely the Z, the 240Z, the Fairlady Z, the S30, and any that I missed. There are definite similarities. Let's key on those and point out the differences that we've been able to observe. Now, that having been said, WHERE the car was destined for INITIALLY, will have the biggest impact on it's design, but that can change midstream, and your emphasis and focus changes as things progress. It may be that in 1956 when Mr. K had the first "brainstorms" regarding what would become his biographical keynote, that his intent was different and initially proposed differently than what eventually came to pass. THAT IS HIS "GENIUS". That's the force that brought it forth. His ability to recognize needed additions, modifications, deletions etc. is something we can only guess at. The end result is we're discussing this between 16 time zones or more. I think the time zones NOT involved are in the oceans. 2¢ Enrique

Well, I now have the results for the voting that took place behind the scenes: Here are the top suggestions as to the kind of Helmet you should wear when racing down the highway. 1 This one was the overall winner as far as the voting went: http://www.eastped.com/html/helmets.html 2 A good contender, but I'm not sure it has everything you need: http://www.plument.com/protectacapplus.htm 3 This one was both very popular and one of the most suggested accessory that you should definitely use: http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html Hope this helps E

Tomo, the reason you are getting such varied and possibly incredulous comments may be that with your tenacity and proclivity in discovering truly new and remotely esoteric venues, people are retiscent to post for fear of exacerbating it. So, in hopes of giving you an answer adequate to your needs: If you are going to be racing on a properly sanctioned and certified race track and with a group or in an event that is sanctioned / sponsored with a national organization, you'd be best served to contact that group's safety coordinator and find out what the rules / regulations are. What is considered acceptable in one class / race / weight group / engine group / ... may be woefully inadequate in another and a gross overkill in another. How much overkill can only be determined by those folks that participate, see them for your amount of overkill. If, on the other hand, you are referring to racing on the street / highway which are nominally called public access roads, then the helmet I would recommend is that extra thick (about 3"-4") of styrofoam and fiberglassmodel with the extra large holes in quadrants. Bicycle helmets look very similar, with the air holes and straps, but not with the fins, although they would be cool to some. The ear pieces sometimes are extended around the ear so that no damage may occur to the ear cartilage, and there are extensions covering the cheeks while still leaving room for the nose. It has a mouth guard AND padded chin guard and two sets of straps to hold it firmly on the head. One set comes down and around the chin, the other set goes down and around the back of the head, then there is this collar type that goes around the neck and through the front and rear straps to ensure that your head pops off your body before the helmet comes off your head. This is a serious device, it's intent is to ensure that regardless of repeated and repetitious impacts upon the head area do not impart the damage to the brain. Most often, when you see them in use, you'll note that they're colored very brightly, and will usually have the sponsor's information or point of contact information with respect to the individual wearing the helmet, for emergency uses. I tried to find you a couple of URL's for each so here goes: For Racing Helmets, this guy's site (search engine find): http://www.norcalcrx.org/tyson/helmet.html For Information on Helmet Laws: http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/advocacy/mhls.htm And unfortunately, regarding the helmet I was envisioning, I couldn't find a good reference on the web to link to, and I just about went nuts doing so. So, since I'm not sure if your original post was to have someone else do the research for you and then post their findings and that's what I've done, and I can't find a good link for the final example, or because you are serious about going out and racing on the highway, which is probably what happened to you. In looking to answer the predicament of which helmet to buy and going with your first instinct, and looking for the same URL link that I was and.... that's what drove you bonkers. So I'll just say it this way...... See Star Wars, the original movie. In one of the first scenes, you remember the guys in the hard, white plastic uniforms? SNIP I think you get my point! E

A Microphone would require an amplifier and assorted electronic items, which would further tax the electrical system of the car, let alone figuring out where to tie it in so that it only operated when the engine was running and so that it didn't cause other anomalies. You wouldn't want it working when it's just the squirrels in your air-breather having an intimate moment. Then again, when the carb's backfired, that would be an experience. :stupid: Why not simply weld a 1/2" to 3/4" metal bar and a couple of feet long to the engine block, then route it through the firewall and the center console (seeing as you have it chopped up anyhow) and put a rubber tip on it. That way when you wanted to listen to the engine you could rest your forehead on the tip and through resonance through the metal and into the bone mass in your head you'd hear every tiny little sound. Heck, on second thought, due to the bone mass involved, that might work as it's own power amplifier and deafen people around you. :devious: But if you're going to go with a sound synthesizer, you should definitely go all the way and get one from the Luke Skywalker Jedi Fighter X-wing toys, or Darth Vader's fighter. Or even the Knight Rider's Kit Car. :stupid: Enrique P.S.: For those individuals who did NOT detect the note of sarcasm, please be advised that there was a heavy dose applied to this post. Heck, it was literally MARINATED in it. Don't try this at home, whether you're a professional bonehead or not. You know who you are, and so do the rest of us.

Wow! Is that what we've been discussing all this time? :stupid: Well, heck, let me go back and see if finally knowing what the piece is called and what it does changes what I posted. I suggest others do the same! :stupid: :stupid: Dang, no wonder, geesh, golly golly by molly, no wonder none of us have understood any of it.... :tapemouth :stupid: Thanks for the information, your post count has been incremented by one, too bad there aren't percentages attached to the post count. Then we could use that number to truly discern something. :cheeky: Enrique

Geez, I hope I didn't start a flame war.... Two thoughts to the side of the topics in discussion: Let's not direct remarks about individual inaccuracies in prior postings, sites, memo's, books, etc. at INDIVIDUALS as being malicious or with malicious intent. I believe most of the inaccuracies that have been made regarding the Z, the Fairlady, the Z432R, the origins of the design, the authors of the original concept, the intended target market and others, are due to simple lack of adequate information having been handed out by Datsun/Nissan originally. That individuals in their altruistic fervor to compile information into one source inadvertently received bad information that was then posted, does NOT imply that they willingly and knowingly posted bad information. When someone comes along and points out the inaccuracies, or omissions, or ..., then it is perfectly natural to question the credentials of the individual making those allegations. Questioning that individual's reputation is not intended to malign that reputation, nor should it be considered a slur. It is perfectly reasonable to ask "And WHO are you?" when challenged with the statement "What you **** is wrong!". To respond antagonistically when challenged begets the doubt in accepting the answer and/or credentials. So let's discuss the inaccuracies, and correct as many as we can, by re-posting here, or by posting links, or by whatever level of verification is generally felt to be needed. It is the BLIND acceptance of items that leads us to argue the validity of them. Failing to challenge something, because of perceived "taboo's", (don't want to insult, social pressure, etc.) is why a lot of information is written inaccurately. As a group, those of us who are most interested in origins, details, numbers, etc. need to have these discussions, so that we may hopefully eliminate omissions, and correct inaccuracies. Let's not point fingers and call names, let's go forward from here and fill in where others haven't. ======= In discussing the WHY's, "How come?", WHERE etc of humans, especially when relating to things that happened in the past, it is imperative that the look back not don the rose-colored glasses that living in the present can give you. Case in point; Hitler is pretty much viewed as the epitome of human evil. If in examining Germany and it's society during the 1930's you make assumptions as to why something happened during that time, biased by your dislike for Hitler, then you will have made a gross error. During that time frame, Germany saw Hitler in a totally favorable and acceptable light. Let's not quibble over small items, the fact is that he was first ELECTED to his position in government. That he moved up in the government is atributable to his evil, but not that the society as a whole KNEW he was evil and did nothing. Many of them felt extremely let down when the truth came out. With that thought in mind, in hindsight, it is easy to presume that since the Z sold so well in the U.S., that it was destined for it's market. That they TARGETED our market, in those days, was a given. The U.S. market at that time was one of the most desired, profitable, and burgeoning markets in the world. Of course you'd want to be involved. That the car was also sold in other markets, with some features added to improve it's appeal to those markets, is simple marketing. You can't sell shaved ice in Alaska during winter, but add flavored sugar syrup, and now it's a Sno-Cone, and some kid's going to want one. However, shaved ice in Acapulco is used by the ton to cool shrimp, fish, salads, etc. That you can also find a Sno-Cone in Acapulco is because that is also a sellable product in that market. Trying to determine the reason some items were offered and not, is something that was very much determined by the level of sophistication in that market AND it's acceptance of that product. An aboriginal tribe in the depths of the Amazonian Jungle, will assign God status to the first man that shows them a cigarette lighter. To them, he will have just performed a miracle. Once they've been exposed to, and used, matches, recognizing them as a man-made product, then introducing the lighter would generate interest, but not wonder at the new miracle. Conversely, if disposable lighters were first introduced to them, then who in that market would want to buy matches when they get introduced later? That the U.S. did not receive 5 speed gear boxes when the car was first being introduced, regardless that other markets did have that option, was because those who were electing to market the car in the U.S., felt that the market might not understand, appreciate (as in assigning a $ value to) and most important of all, accept those additional features. The bottom line in discussing what would or would not have been sold has to rely on one very distinct Sales Axiom: You can't sell something to someone who is NOT willing to buy. If you look back at the archives of magazines you may have in your garage. Look through the advertising, you'll find very few ads for Japanese vehicles. You will also notice that the average American car that was being offered, was NOT the compact, lightweight, gas-economizing, performance tuned, sports-car. Yes, there were vehicles in that category, but they were seen as minor off-shoots of the main market. The "AVERAGE" vehicle, if it could be described, was a big heavy, gas-guzzling, pleasure-cruise BOAT of a car. That's what the U.S. "Baby Boomers" were buying, because as a group, they were into their early "Family" phase. Yes there were individuals ahead of that curve, and others who've lagged behind, and they comprised the sales of the sub-market off-shoots, but the main part of the bell curve was buying family rigs. {for those of you outside the U.S., the Baby Boomers generally defines people born during the "Baby Boom" experienced after WWII and Korea.} Datsun very bravely entered the U.S. market with it's original inexpensive Bluebird cars and trucks, then the Fairlady Roadsters and sold some, and then gambled on a bigger slice with the Z is because of the growing acceptance of Japanese products by the American public. One of the reasons Honda entered the automobile market in the U.S., was probably due to the growing market share that Datsun was beginning to enjoy. However, if anyone recalls the original Civic, you'll recall that it was basically a motorcycle with a passenger compartment. It wasn't till much later that it's sales took off. The American public, AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME, as a general statement of the group, did not feel the need to buy something smaller, lighter, and most importantly essentially, a simplified version of their automotatic behemoths. That a few individuals out of the group whole, went against that generalized trend, neither contradicts nor belies the trend of the group as a whole. The cost of manpower difference between U.S. manufacturer's vs Japanese manufacturers was a chasm so deep as to be called an abyss. Japanese manufacturers could literally sell for pennies on the dollar the labor invested in their car, and still make a profit. The U.S. government did in fact step in and impose tariffs, import quotas, and import duties on the vehicles being brought in, specifically targeted to the Japanese car manufacturers because of these differences. Check the old magazines again and you'll find numerous articles on how the govt. was working to "protect" Detroit and it's ramnifications. Many of those same obstacles to market were still in place when the Gas Shortage that was experienced in the U.S. rocketed the price of fuel to the point where the public felt a need to search for alternatives to expending gas frivolously. That is one of the poignant reasons that more fuel efficient and inherent in their design, smaller and lighter vehicles began to sell well. At that point in time, the market changed. IF THE MARKET HADN'T CHANGED, THE Z MAY HAVE BEEN ANOTHER ROADSTER, RENAULT LeCar, OR ANY OF THE OTHER VEHICLES THAT NEVER SOLD WELL IN THE U.S. OR ANYWHERE. That the market did change, is where we Z lover's benefited. Talk to a Roadster owner and ask him about the availability of parts, bemoaning the Z's lack of OEM parts, and the need for aftermarket stock replacements, and you'll discover that aftermarket reproductions are very commonly used. OEM parts were scarce to begin with, because of the lack of sales, and now they're virtually gone. The Z has the luxury of sometimes finding donor cars in bone-yards, the typical Roadster in the bone-yard is usually a candidate for restoration. Yes, this is slightly exagerated but my point applies. With the hindsight afforded to us by time and our love for the Z, it's easy to assign ulterior motives and otherwise denigrate the perceived lack of features, options and lack of product as malignant, when in fact, at that point in time, they were hoping that their marketing gamble would succeed. However, that in later periods they did not address the lack of those features, products and options etc, is either ignorant arrogance, or a failure to recognize potential. Then again, it might be as simple as a company experiencing exponential growth that exceeded careful monitoring and cultivated control. 2¢ Enrique

Alan: Yes I was referring to the information you gave, not to question nor impugn it's validity, but so that a better clarification could be read and...in essence....stored for future reference within the same environment as it was discussed in....this forum. As you have sometimes pointed out, a large segment of the information available on the internet with regards to the Z, is truncated, non-verifiable, and sadly incomplete where it isn't conjecture. While it's easy to cast off the validity of Zhome due to inaccuracies that have been pointed out (the first 500), a point needs to be made that it gained it's reputation for being a fountain of knowledge because people passed it on as a reference for the material....BECAUSE THERE WERE NO OTHER SOURCES. As we have these "discussions", let's clarify to enhance the information available and try to maintain a better standard of information. In my opinion, your post is exactly what I enjoy about these discussions. It is informative, the information presented is self-supporting and what is more, is verifiable with the level of information given. That is what I think you would like Zhome to have, unfortunately not everyone has access to the data as you've had due to your job. (Wanna discuss Doors? That's what I sell.) So your reply was perfect! The only reason I commented was that at a manufacturing company I worked at years ago, the ONLY serial numbers assigned to ANY of the valves manufactured were given to those that were SHIPPED. Internal test, use or .... were not serialized at all. In the initial run-up of a valve specification, it wouldn't be unusual to see the first 100 or more, go to testing. These weren't serialized, except for the internal control marks. If we had serialized each one, the first one out the door might have had number 1234. In those situations, sometimes in the change over, (as the model valve was being superseeded) you would still have orders in house (being manufactured) for the model that was being replaced. Rather than count up the total of orders in house, orders in process, and orders being expected from existing quotes, a "range" of numbers would be tacked onto the "end" of the serial number. Simply put, we'd be up to number 4,567, and at a rough guess we could expect no more than 400 future valves to ship, so we'd "pad" the number to 5100, i.e. over 100 MORE than the actual run. We were interested in knowing approximately how many of those valves were out there so that we could supply replacement parts before we could rely on that model valve being gone from use and no longer require the spare parts inventory. The serial number gave us the product make-up based on when in the total manufacturing process it was made. Remember, as they went OUT the door they were serialized and not till then. I don't know the method by which Datsun measured their numbers. Since it involved automobiles, I presumed that their record controls would be much more stringent than ours were. As a result, when the numbers were "fuzzy", and based on my breadth of experience, I questioned whether they were production or posted (shipped, in my old job). Your post helps clarify that. Enrique

I'll let you two discuss environmental impacts ad nauseaum.... :tapemouth Regarding getting the original nuts and bolts plated, ZSaint are you doing that becaue you're planning on entering your car in a Concours Car Show where those things are important, or for some other reason? I can understand that it looks better, but few people would be able to discern the difference between a properly plated and restored original screw/bolt as opposed to a replacement that meets the fastening criteria required of that fastener. Additionally, depending on the rust removal method and the subsequent steps before getting plated, the temper of the metal may have been compromised, especially if heat is involved at any step of the process. For that reason, I would heartily recommend you double check the need and expense for re-plated screws, as opposed to replacing outright with the right pitch/thread. Yes, in some instances there will be cosmetic differences (larger/smaller hex head on a bolt than the thread shaft diameter normally is associated with), but for the most part, I can't imagine a functionality issue arising due to the difference in the head size. So, match the hardness and thread/pitch to replace, and check your plating process to ensure that the original hardness is maintained and that the plating doesn't change the tolerance of that piece Thick plating on a bolt will require you chase the threads to ensure it will insert into the nut (and vice versa). Combine the two, re-plated nuts and bolts and you may find that they don't mate without chasing threads which might remove the bulk of the plating. 2¢ Enrique

Exactly. The "cup" I was referring to is from my body-working days. The quarter panel can be obtained with or without the gas filler "cup", i.e. the metal stamped "cup" that gets attached to the backside of the fender to maintain the filler opening "outside" the vehicle. The gas door closes this "cup" made in the panel. Without this cup, the filler neck either extends OUT of the body (Jeep's, Late 50's Style pick-ups, Datsun Roadster, MG, Triumph) or is INSIDE the sheet metal and therefore inside the trunk or passenger compartment. I can't think of a single example. Excellent post regarding the early Z fuel cap problems. I can definitely see why a hard turn in those vehicles would allow the splash that you mentioned. I wasn't aware that they had had the problem. I understand better what you were saying originally. I didn't figure you for the stick a wick in it type. I felt that it needed to have emphasis placed on it's not being something to ignore. How many times have you seen a where a driver lost his gas cap and just stuffed a rag into it? The perception of the danger was that .... it didn't happen....often. As a friend of mine put it, it's bad enough it's dangerous, do you have to put a wick into it for any idiot to give you a light? Gas caps are often ignored as part of a restoration, repair, or troubleshooting. A poorly fitting gas cap can be as dangerous as the loosely fitted ring it fits onto, as your first photo attests. Nope, I meant the opposite and when upside down. A full tank will exert more force on the gas cap when upside down than when half full and upside down. Actually, in this case, it's inertia. Centripetal forces are what get exerted when you re-direct that force. Or the force applied to impel an item towards the center or axis of force. Centrifugal force is what causes an object to fly away from the center of the curve once the centripetal force has been removed. Inertia is the front half of the equation (An object in motion stays in motion) And the second half (until a force is exerted to affect that motion) can be expressed as friction, air-resistance, drag, the ground, as well as centripetal force amongst others. Once you've exerted AND removed centripetal force the resultant force is the centrifugal force of that item. This is a very complex relationship that took me a long time to get right, so if I've goofed please post and correct me. Yes, but then a few other forces get added to the equation as well as limitations. In an upside down situation, the pressure exerted on the gas cap is substantially more than it's designed to hold within. That's a given as to why it's leaking once upside down. The sole force acting on the gas is gravity. That would be it's total force and therefore total pressure on the cap. In the change of direction example, gravity also plays a big role as a reduction factor as to the pressure that would be applied to the gas cap. The only time that the pressure on the gas cap in a hard turn would equal (or exceed) the pressure when upside down would be when the force were greater than 1 G (as in the force of gravity). In order to do that, you're referring to the instant just before the car begins to roll. Up until that point, you have a percentage of the weight of the gas working against the centripetal force on the gas. This just means that you reduce the total force exerted on the gas cap. Now, an additional factor comes into play. The total amount of force exerted on the gas cap, in a full G of curve is not the sum of the weight of the gas in the tank, but rather the weight of the column of fuel that is exceeding 1G, and the corresponding pressure exerted inside the fuel tank to the area of the top of the tube (actually, the bottom of the filler neck, where it connects to the gas tank) and once again you're back down in lower figures of pressure on the gas cap. The key thing to consider here is the duration of these forces. A curve lasts only so long, whereas gravity is constant. The curve has a beginning and end (in this example) and therefore there are periods of time when the force is not enough to exceed the full G of centripetal force. The simplest way to say it is that only at the point of the curve that the force of gravity is exceeded and only for the length of time that it is exceeded it would it exceed the gravity pull for the same item standing still. The force in a gas cap, need only sustain that "splash" for a given period of time, hence the reduced pressure requirement. If it had to hold the pressure for a long time then it would be designed differently. Instead of a simple compression gasket relying on hand applied force, a design that provided a strong constant pressure. One example of this is a radiator cap. Except for racing systems and fuel injection systems, for the most part, carburated systems have a vented draw fuel system and not a pressurized one. At the pressures the gas cap holds, at best you hear a subtle "pssssst" when you release it. Don't do that with a radiator under pressure. As you pointed out, gas flying out the back is something to address.