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ToolBoy

Rear control arm bush alignment

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12 hours ago, ToolBoy said:

. . . note to Captain Obvious. . .   Identifying what the PO did and what aspects of that did or didn't work. ( and you get to berate him for it and be righteous which is always fun).   

I wasn't suggesting you would think of "berating" anyone in this situation but rather was referring to the many times I've uncovered repairs that were done without common sense or due diligence and were potentially unsafe, ticking timebombs. Structural boatwork, house remodel construction, both boat and house electrical among others.

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Haha!! Gotcha. Well I would be happy to berate my PO.....

Here's a pic of the kind of PO handiwork I found on my car when I dug into the suspension.  Yes, those are huge gouges of missing and upset metal on the precision bushing surface. I'm thinking he split and drove the old bushing out with an air chisel. And heat. Lots of heat. Enough heat to blue the ends of the control arms.
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WOW!! . . .  reminds me of the old adage. . . . . "If brute force isn't working, it just means you're not using enough"   

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. . . or, turn it as far as it'll go. . . and then two more. . . . 

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Since you got to share. . .  now it's my turn. . . . This is what the inside of a water pump looks like when you park a Z for 17 years with the fluids left in. I can't wait to see the electrolysis between the head and the block. So exciting!  

H2OPump.jpg

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Gross. Congrats, I think that's the worst I've ever seen.

Here's hoping the block and head don't look as bad!!    :blink:

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Wow! That looks like a crustacean family has been living in there.

Can't wait to see pictures after you get the block's core plugs out, I like to get grossed out. LOL

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/11/2020 at 6:57 AM, Captain Obvious said:

Yeah, I think someone missed a detail somewhere. Everything about the whole situation would make much more sense for the bushing to be symmetric. Assembly process would be foolproof because you wouldn't need to pay any attention to which direction it went in. and the documentation wouldn't have to mention anything about it because it just didn't matter.

On the prototyping floor... "Hey Boss. I'm putting these bushings in and when I do that, I can't get the strut casting in between them. What are we going to do?"

Boss says : "Hmmm... I'll let engineering know."

Engineering says : " Oops. We'll need to either:"

a) Change the strut housing design to reduce the width.
b) Change the rear control arms to increase the span between the bushings.
c) Change the bushing so things fit together without interference.

And "changing the bushing is way cheapest and easiest to change, so lets do that."

Draftsman/Designer says : "I can't shorten the outsides of the bushings because we need that length for the rubber washers. Should we eliminate the rubber washers and make the bushings symmetric, or should we make the bushings asymmetric and keep the washers?"

Lead Engineer says : "Crap (in Japanese).  I really want to keep those washers. Make the bushings asymmetric and make sure you let documentation know about the change because they'll have to describe how to put the bushings in correctly!"

And that last part never happened. I wasn't there for any of it, but that's how I see the whole thing.    ROFL

It doesn't sound too far-fetched but I'd still be surprised if that were the reasoning behind the decision. How much are those bushings offset by? If it's a few mm's, my call would be to just machine the strut housing a tiny bit more and not worry about retooling bushings and having them become asymmetric. Perhaps the cost analysis showed otherwise.

It's not uncommon to offset bushings to account for pre-load or uneven travel but I don't see that being the case here. Especially because the bushings are offset in opposite directions when installed.

Edited by LeonV

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Doesn't having the offset to the outside leave a gap for that little rubber seal/washer?  And keeps the nut off of the outer edge of the control arm.

Nissan spent a lot of time avoiding metal to metal contact.  If you look at all of the components in the rear you'll see that they're all suspended in rubber, separated from the body.  Just an extra view...

http://www.carpartsmanual.com/datsun/Z-1969-1978/axle/rear-suspension/69

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4 hours ago, LeonV said:

It doesn't sound too far-fetched but I'd still be surprised if that were the reasoning behind the decision.

Haha! Yeah, we'll never know for sure. And of course, all this chatter about what we think was a mistake may have all been perfectly intentional from the very beginning for reasons we don't know. 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/12/2020 at 7:29 PM, Captain Obvious said:

Haha!! Gotcha. Well I would be happy to berate my PO.....

Here's a pic of the kind of PO handiwork I found on my car when I dug into the suspension.  Yes, those are huge gouges of missing and upset metal on the precision bushing surface. I'm thinking he split and drove the old bushing out with an air chisel. And heat. Lots of heat. Enough heat to blue the ends of the control arms.
P1060488.JPG

 

A long time ago on another planet, I got “smart” and decided to weld a short 1” x 0.25 metal bar into the shell, then beat the shell out by bashing on the welded-in bar. It worked pretty well, took a good size hammer to knock them out. The welding heat helped too. It was tickatee boo until I discovered I had bent the ends of the control arms with my “gentle” persuasion....

Now I use a more civilized approach....

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I can even press them out whole. When was the last time you saw a stock bushing in one piece fresh out of a control arm with no damage?

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Same tool presses them back in, using only the smaller die and a couple of washers on the other side. They go in MUCH easier than they come out.

 

Edited by zKars
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41 minutes ago, zKars said:

They go in MUCH easier than they come out.

. . . Truer words never spoken. . . .

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Posted (edited)

I have my spindle pins pulled and need to replace the outer control arm bushings before I put it back together.  I saw @zKars post and it got me thinking...  Why can't I simply use my spindle pin puller to remove and install the bushings as well as the pins? 

All I need is a cheap deep socket that is just a hair smaller OD than the bushing outer sleeve OD.  At most, I might have to drill out the 1/2" square drive so the pin slides through the socket far enough to fit a thick washer and a nut.  The spindle pin then slides through the bushing from the outboard side and the socket, a washer and a nut is installed on the inboard side.  From there, the spindle pin puller attaches the same as when the pin is pulled.  I still need to measure mine, but I believe the puller tube is large enough ID for the bushing to slide into it without contact.  If that's the case. the puller should work great.  Installation would be exactly the same as long as there is enough space to fit the bushing and socket between the two ears of the H arm.  The new bushings would pull in from inboard to outboard just like they are removed.  

I still need to do some measuring since I'm not with the car right now, but I think it will work without making another tool.  At the same time, the 1" acme threaded puller should pull the bushings like butter.

Am I missing something, or should this work?

 

EDIT 1:  Okay, I did some measuring.  I can't do this exactly as I had hoped, but it might be an easy fix.  I have a socket that will fit perfectly with no mods as the pusher.  The threaded end of the spindle pin pokes through the 1/2" square drive end of the socket just far enough to fit a nut without a washer.  The nut without a washer still has really good bearing surface on the socket, so I think it would be fine.  There is also plenty of space between the two ears of the H arm for the socket, nut, and new bushing.  The problem I found is that the ID of the tube part of the puller is not large enough for the bushing to slide through when removing the original bushing.  I just need to find a pipe that's a bit larger diameter so the bushing slides into it and yet it still fits the control arm.  I then have to weld another washer on for the thrust bearing to ride on.  I could even have the end of the existing tube threaded and then just add a coupler.  I'm not sure if the coupler OD would be too big to sit flush on the control arm through.  I will add more pics once I have time.

EDIT 2:  I don't have my control arms handy since they are still on the car, but I have an old take-out OE bushing, a partial spindle pin, and the strut assemble in my basement.  I also happened to have a length of pipe with a coupler on it.  The coupler has a large enough ID to fit over the bushing.  Mine happened to be threaed all the way onto a pipe, so the coupler was a bit short compared to the length of the bushing, but I believe it could be screwed onto the pipe a bit less and tack welded if needed to give it enough depth for the bushing.  Once I compare the coupler OD to the control arm to make sure it sits flush, I should have all the info I need.  Here are pics of the various parts.  I think this will work!

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Edited by Jeff G 78
Added new info

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A combination pin puller and bushing press would be a great tool. Fantastic idea. Finding just the right socket is the trick. 

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21 hours ago, Jeff G 78 said:

All I need is a cheap deep socket that is just a hair smaller OD than the bushing outer sleeve OD. 

Maybe buy a socket that's slightly oversize and have it machined down to exactly the diameter you want.

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48 minutes ago, Namerow said:

Maybe buy a socket that's slightly oversize and have it machined down to exactly the diameter you want.

So far, it looks like the 13/16" Craftsman 1/2" drive socket will work.  I might take a trip to a few stores to see if any sockets are just a hair bigger, but for now, I should have a winner.  Ideally, I'll find a Harbor Freight or other non-chromed impact socket that only costs a few bucks.  I don't want to ruin my 40 year old Craftsman socket that can't be replaced with another USA made one.

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Update:  I removed the four OE bushings yesterday using my modified spindle pin puller.  I used a bolt and washer through the socket that threaded into the puller rod rather than using the spindle pin.  Overall, the puller worked well, but I did learn a few things.  First, unlike pulling a spindle pin, the puller rod must be held and not allowed to rotate.  I used vice grips to hold the puller rod, but I will likely either weld a nut on it or machine two flats on it.  I had to use a propane torch to ease the control arm grip on the bushings.  Three came out really well, but one kept cocking the socket due to the thin wall on the OE bushing.  I then grabbed a socket that only picked up the center sleeve rather than the outer sleeve and the bushing pulled right out.  I thought for sure that the rubber would separate, but it held together just fine.

In the end, I got all four out using my spindle pin puller tool which was a win.  I didn't have to remove the arms from the car or struggle with a press and risk bending the arms.  Since I'm installing poly, I won't be able to say if the tool would pull new ones in, but I would think it would with no issue.

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Edited by Jeff G 78
Added pics
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