Jump to content
DatsunZGuy

Mint '71 240Z - More Fun Coming to BaT

Recommended Posts


1 hour ago, 240260280 said:

Delta context is "HP or Speed loss due to pollution items".

My point being that - if you were (for example) a California resident in the market for a '240Z' in 1970 - how would you know what that "HP or Speed loss due to pollution items" was? There was no '240Z' next to it in the showroom without the anti-pollution gear against which you could make a comparison, so it was fait accompli.

I'd put money on it being the case that most of those buyers thought they had the full quoted '151 HP' underneath them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, HS30-H said:

My point being that - if you were (for example) a California resident in the market for a '240Z' in 1970 - how would you know what that "HP or Speed loss due to pollution items" was? There was no '240Z' next to it in the showroom without the anti-pollution gear against which you could make a comparison, so it was fait accompli.

I'd put money on it being the case that most of those buyers thought they had the full quoted '151 HP' underneath them.

Yes...I agree... but we are speaking two different things.  I'm refereeing to how people drive.

Digression:

I plotted top gears' course times using time against HP.  I figured any anomalies would bring out the cars with better tracking... it turns out there were several anomalies so I figured I found "great cars".... when I looked closer, it was the pro drivers that made them stand out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi , I am still feeling the driver’s seat looked different from the passenger’s seat . This picture makes me wonder if our seats  would have changed its shape in 1970 , the BAT green car seems to have the seat just like this black seat  in the driver’s seat maybe produced in later 1970 . The seat back has different shape than the earlier one especially around the shoulder area .


Kats

3263CEDF-A644-4C97-B1B3-7EE2EEAFF150.jpeg

0F499EF7-FDE8-486A-91F2-3FE6BA6F2B62.jpeg

4FE51B05-15C5-4384-9EB5-00CB18CFAD65.jpeg

814E4A9B-2343-43A4-B7F4-E775F968A1E7.jpeg

Edited by kats
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/30/2020 at 10:45 AM, HS30-H said:

1. The Flying Feather was conceived and engineered by Ryuichi Tomiya, and manufactured by Suminoe. Katayama was a friend of Tomiya and promoted/advertised the product. It was not a Nissan product, so I don't know what "at Nissan" means above?
2. I think you mean the SCCJ (Sports Car Club of Japan) which was started by a like-minded group of individuals, not just Katayama.
3. As above, an event that the Japanese auto industry agreed it needed, and was put together by more than one person.
4. Participation in the '58 Mobilgas Round Australia Trial was originally the idea of Yasuharu Nanba.
5. So did quite a lot of other people. Soichi Kawazoe in particular.
6. Did he? Are we to suppose that - Nissan having sent this (SPL212?) to the United States - it would not have been sold had it not been for Katayama?
7. OK.... so nobody else was doing anything of any consequence then?

None of the above is any attempt at the diminution of Yutaka Katayama. What I'm really saying is that people tend to put Katayama in the frame for things that were often team efforts, and/or conceived and executed by others, and/or including Katayama. 

I don't know anyone who said or felt that Mr K was an engineer, or designed anything. I see him as a marketing guy, who's support moved the project forward among a hesitant management adverse to risk. He was a risk taker, and saw a car that needed a executive level supporter. Clearly he saw something in the car, and probably had a hand in helping Japan understand the American market and what kind of car would interest Americans. I never heard he had anything to do with the design except from the point of capturing the likes and dislikes of American drivers. Apparently he complained for years about the lack of power. Americans were building stylish muscle cars while Japan was sending over anemic tin boxes. Now if that's not the story, then maybe Mr K wasted his time coming over here in the first place, wasted his time coming to Z conventions, and made galactic fools out of all of us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/28/2020 at 9:30 AM, kats said:

Hi , I am still feeling the driver’s seat looked different from the passenger’s seat . This picture makes me wonder if our seats  would have changed its shape in 1970 , the BAT green car seems to have the seat just like this black seat  in the driver’s seat maybe produced in later 1970 . The seat back has different shape than the earlier one especially around the shoulder area .


Kats

3263CEDF-A644-4C97-B1B3-7EE2EEAFF150.jpeg

0F499EF7-FDE8-486A-91F2-3FE6BA6F2B62.jpeg

4FE51B05-15C5-4384-9EB5-00CB18CFAD65.jpeg

814E4A9B-2343-43A4-B7F4-E775F968A1E7.jpeg

Kats, I don't see it. Could you please point out the difference in features and shape of pre-72 seats?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, bpilati said:

I don't know anyone who said or felt that Mr K was an engineer, or designed anything.

As per my original post to that subject on this thread, I was responding to a poster on the Bring-a-Trailer auction comments section (for the car we have been discussing here) who made some strange claims about Katayama. Here's a reminder of what he wrote:

" Mr. Yutaka Katayama (RIP) must be quite honored that his design has such a devoted fan base with so much knowledge. On another level, I can only surmise that first and foremost he designed this car with the driving experience in mind. I’d love to hear more stories from the experienced about the well thought out the driving position is, how smooth the sweet 6 is at revs, how compliant the suspension (IRS) is over poor roads, the fluid throw of the shifts, and so on. No doubt he dedicated countless hours designing these tactile elements into that pretty styling exercise. These are what make this car so very special. I’d love to read more about the experience."

See?

As you will know, in 1998 Yutaka Katayama was inducted into the 'Automotive Hall Of Fame'. His Automotive Hall Of Fame biography contains the following sentence:

"Shunning conventional wisdom, he created and promoted cars and trucks designed for a new type of consumer".  

Do you believe that Katayama "created" - in any practical sense of the word - any of the products that NMC USA was selling? You appear to agree with me that he did not, but there are many people - apparently even in the Automotive Hall of Fame - who clearly believe that he did. There are many more examples of this 'out there' both in print and online.

14 hours ago, bpilati said:

I never heard he had anything to do with the design except from the point of capturing the likes and dislikes of American drivers. Apparently he complained for years about the lack of power. Americans were building stylish muscle cars while Japan was sending over anemic tin boxes.

I'm wondering if you consider Katayama's input/feedback to be the reason for the North American market variant HLS30Us being equipped with Warner synchro 4-speed transmissions, 3.364:1 ratio diffs, soft springing and damping, slow steering ratios and less of the bells and whistles seen in other market variants? Was Katayama responsible for making the North American market Zs less sporty than others, or was that out of his control? If it was out of his control, is his much-vaunted influence being overstated? Genuine questions.

Yes, Katayama was requesting more power (mostly via bigger displacement) but so were any number of others within Nissan, within their Japanese competition - Toyota and Honda for example - and within their customer base in Japan. It was inevitable, and it was coming whether Katayama had been calling for it or not. Again, Katayama being credited with something that already had its own impetus and trajectory.

What were the "anemic tin boxes" you mention? Is this not a conflation of earlier stories regarding the likes of the 210-series Bluebird? You can see the same impetus with the 310 and 410-series cars pointing the way forward to the 510 and beyond, and the SP/SR roadsters being successful enough in their own right as Nissan's sports car to be superseded by a new coupe when international safety regulations threatened the death of open-top sports cars. Where exactly was Katayama's influence a KEY factor here? 

15 hours ago, bpilati said:

Now if that's not the story, then maybe Mr K wasted his time coming over here in the first place, wasted his time coming to Z conventions, and made galactic fools out of all of us.

Throwaway Iines there. Look, if I point out that The Beatles didn't write 'Twist and Shout' or that the Rolling Stones didn't write 'Little Red Rooster', it doesn't mean I'm dissing the Beatles or the Stones. They were both great in their own right (and write...) but creative credit should go where it is due. Bert Berns and Willie Dixon respectively, right?  

I want to assure you that I think of Yutaka Katayama as a major figure in Nissan - and Japan's - history and, as I've pointed out up-thread, I am not attempting to take away any credit that he rightly deserved for achievements that he was rightly credited with. In setting up the NMC USA dealer network (following Volkswagen's model) along with Soichi Kawazoe and others, and very much being the 'face' of Nissan in the USA at such a crucial time, he deserves the plaudits. But he is often credited with the work of others, or with things that would be happening anyway, and that is wrong.          

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, HS30-H said:

Look, if I point out that The Beatles didn't write 'Twist and Shout' or that the Rolling Stones didn't write 'Little Red Rooster', it doesn't mean I'm dissing the Beatles or the Stones.

What it does mean is you're not the only old fart in these forums!  ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 3/30/2020 at 9:33 AM, HS30-H said:

As per my original post to that subject on this thread, I was responding to a poster on the Bring-a-Trailer auction comments section (for the car we have been discussing here) who made some strange claims about Katayama. Here's a reminder of what he wrote:

" Mr. Yutaka Katayama (RIP) must be quite honored that his design has such a devoted fan base with so much knowledge. On another level, I can only surmise that first and foremost he designed this car with the driving experience in mind. I’d love to hear more stories from the experienced about the well thought out the driving position is, how smooth the sweet 6 is at revs, how compliant the suspension (IRS) is over poor roads, the fluid throw of the shifts, and so on. No doubt he dedicated countless hours designing these tactile elements into that pretty styling exercise. These are what make this car so very special. I’d love to read more about the experience."

See?

As you will know, in 1998 Yutaka Katayama was inducted into the 'Automotive Hall Of Fame'. His Automotive Hall Of Fame biography contains the following sentence:

"Shunning conventional wisdom, he created and promoted cars and trucks designed for a new type of consumer".  

Do you believe that Katayama "created" - in any practical sense of the word - any of the products that NMC USA was selling? You appear to agree with me that he did not, but there are many people - apparently even in the Automotive Hall of Fame - who clearly believe that he did. There are many more examples of this 'out there' both in print and online.

I'm wondering if you consider Katayama's input/feedback to be the reason for the North American market variant HLS30Us being equipped with Warner synchro 4-speed transmissions, 3.364:1 ratio diffs, soft springing and damping, slow steering ratios and less of the bells and whistles seen in other market variants? Was Katayama responsible for making the North American market Zs less sporty than others, or was that out of his control? If it was out of his control, is his much-vaunted influence being overstated? Genuine questions.

Yes, Katayama was requesting more power (mostly via bigger displacement) but so were any number of others within Nissan, within their Japanese competition - Toyota and Honda for example - and within their customer base in Japan. It was inevitable, and it was coming whether Katayama had been calling for it or not. Again, Katayama being credited with something that already had its own impetus and trajectory.

What were the "anemic tin boxes" you mention? Is this not a conflation of earlier stories regarding the likes of the 210-series Bluebird? You can see the same impetus with the 310 and 410-series cars pointing the way forward to the 510 and beyond, and the SP/SR roadsters being successful enough in their own right as Nissan's sports car to be superseded by a new coupe when international safety regulations threatened the death of open-top sports cars. Where exactly was Katayama's influence a KEY factor here? 

Throwaway Iines there. Look, if I point out that The Beatles didn't write 'Twist and Shout' or that the Rolling Stones didn't write 'Little Red Rooster', it doesn't mean I'm dissing the Beatles or the Stones. They were both great in their own right (and write...) but creative credit should go where it is due. Bert Berns and Willie Dixon respectively, right?  

I want to assure you that I think of Yutaka Katayama as a major figure in Nissan - and Japan's - history and, as I've pointed out up-thread, I am not attempting to take away any credit that he rightly deserved for achievements that he was rightly credited with. In setting up the NMC USA dealer network (following Volkswagen's model) along with Soichi Kawazoe and others, and very much being the 'face' of Nissan in the USA at such a crucial time, he deserves the plaudits. But he is often credited with the work of others, or with things that would be happening anyway, and that is wrong.          

Like Iacoca saving Chrysler maybe. At some point you have to accept that fact that higher up tend to get credit for things their underlings or lower ranks actually physically did or thought up. That's how the world has worked for thousands of years. I get what you're saying, but it's not reality. Did he pick the gear ratios? C'mon! Do we really know if the Z would have happened anyway, or in the fashion it ended up in? Different countries have different constraints, you know this. Did he suggest a MSRP, probably. That was his bailiwick. Did Matsuo work within those constraints and many others to meet a cost point. Probably. Did Matsuo design every door knob himself. Of course not. Other engineers and designers were involved of course. Who gets the eventual name recognition? Higher ups. Now could we please end the debate, I think it's run its course?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, bpilati said:

Who gets the eventual name recognition? Higher ups.

If that were the case, then why did it stop at Katayama? Why not with, for example, Hajime Suitsu, Teiichi Hara or - going all the way "higher up" - Kawamata himself. I'll tell you why. It's because the people believing that Katayama was a 'Designer'/'Creator' had probably never heard of Suitsu, Hara or Kawamata, let alone the likes of Hitoshi Uemura. They appear to have simply pinned it on the face they knew.
 

35 minutes ago, bpilati said:

Now could we please end the debate, I think it's run its course?

A little reminder: You revived a thread that had been dormant for a month to quote a post that I made on 20th January.  

On the contrary, I'll always be ready to discuss this kind of topic and I consider that a Vital Sign for a vibrant, scholarly, inquisitive and - more to the point - so far undead marque/model forum.   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.