zKars

FS5W71B Rebuild Thread - Tips tricks and discoveries!

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    I'm in the process of rebuilding a one, maybe two, or three, not sure, FC5W71B transmissions. 

    It's just about the LAST thing I have yet to do on (to?) a Datsun. Always thought it was too hard and needed too many special tools. It's not.

    I want to record details of what I found and did along the process, but not in the usual way. 

    -I will NOT take a video of the whole process. There are plenty great ones on YouTube. I WILL record the URL's of any helpful video's I find to help centralize the source for those videos and maybe critique each one's strengths. 

    -I will NOT add the 300 photos I will take along the way. I WILL take photos and add notes on the tricks and traps and useful organizational methods I found and used along the way.

    -I WILL make one post that lists ALL the tools I needed. Some I bought, some I modified, some I made, to help you to understand what you will need if you try this. This will either convince you can or CAN'T (or shouldn't)

    -I WILL encourage you to attempt this yourself. It is not hard, it is just very detail oriented. 

    -I WILL list parts sources for parts I find, especially new sources. 

    -I will make notes about commonality I find between the various 4 and 5 speeds, if that turns there are enough to mention. For example I need a 1-2 shift fork for a 82-83 trans. What other trans have the same fork? Any? Stuff like that.

    Now onto the good stuff

     

     

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    Lucky me. I have about five speeds in my yard and in various cars, few of which I know much about. Parts come, parts go, you forget who you got them from, were they any good, blah blah blah

    I just went through a frustrating experience trying to do a 5 speed swap for a local Z guy. First 5 speed I grab is my favorite, a backup I've kept around for years in case mine blows up. It's an 82-83 close ratio zx five speed, you know the one, tall shift ears, one muffler hanging casting, nice tall 5th gearing.

     Drag it into the shop, stuff a shifter in it, can't do much but select 1 and 2, and neutral, but it's locked up. Input shaft only turns the output shaft in Neutral.... Huh?????

    Go grab the "next best" 5 speed. Shifts fine on the floor, all gears turn the output shaft. Stuff it in the car, go for a drive, can't get it in 5th! Just grinds.  Oh crap. 

    This spawns my thread about "I need a 5 speed close by!". So far only one offer, too far away. So. Time to man up and learn how to do a rebuild.  Here we are.

    I really want my close ratio five speed working. I have another one in my dime that's making noises I don't like too. I'm replacing it with a C fresh C type with L bell housing, but I will be good for other projects. 

    I showed this video in another prior thread. It's why the one 5 speed is locked up. Yeah, no kidding......

    Edited by zKars

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    So first post about parts. Drivetrain.com has rebuild kits. DTS -BK104 in various forms with and without synchro's. Some have said the synchro's weren't great, but the Nissan ones if you can.

    Nissan can also supply all the bearings and bits. Few if any hard parts.

    EuroDat supplied this spreadsheet of Nissan Parts numbers.  Tranny_Rebuild_FEB2012.pdf

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    Tools:

    I hope I can edit this for a couple of days.

    Not going to list common stuff. Just stuff you may not have.

    1. BAV attached to a BAB.  (Large Vise 5 or 6" jaws, attached to Large sturdy workbench). You get to guess what BA stands for. 

    2. Bearing puller with splitters, large and small, with length extensions. Mine uses 3/8 course threads so I bought a bunch of Gr8 all-thread and coupler nuts. Cheap and strong enough. 

    3. 38mm open/box end wrench. Also 1-1/2 is just fine too.

    4. Snap ring pliers. There are two thick stiff little suckers on the reverse counter gear shaft that if you don't have a proper fitting snap ring pliers, you will curse your life for hours . The tips I used are 0.090 and fit perfect. OTS makes them, sure there are many others. Don't buy cheap. see above.

    5. T45 6pt star bit.

    6. A press. For assembly, you may not NEED a press if you use the "heat the bearing in the oven", freeze the shaft in the freezer or snowbank, then tap together with maybe nothing more than a pipe and hammer. For disassembly bearing splitter plates and pullers do most. The main shaft has to be pushed out of the bearing in the intermediate plate, and if you had a tall enough press its easy. I'll show what I did instead below.

    7. The right size magnet on a stick. Little, like 3/16 to get a couple balls out of holes.

    8. 

     

    Edited by zKars
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    8 hours ago, zKars said:

    I want to record details

    You say FC5W71B ??  you mean the FS5W71B (280zx..)  or (in case of the eurotype 240z 5 speed) the FS5C71B ??  i could of course be wrong but i never heard of the FC5W71B  ..  were does it come out of? 

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    Quote......“Go grab the "next best" 5 speed. Shifts fine on the floor, all gears turn the output shaft. Stuff it in the car, go for a drive, can't get it in 5th! Just grinds.  Oh crap. “

    I had a rebuilt 5 speed that would just grind going into 5th. Eiji said it’s because I had the wrong shifter. Is that correct Jim? Do the 5 speeds (ZX) use a different shifter to get into 5th gear.  I never attempted to rebuild a tranny either, but I never had any problems with a 4 speed B tranny, so I gave him my two 5 speeds and I only have to shift 4 times in my Z’s. LOL.

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    Can't imagine that the shifter is the cause of not being able to get to 5th. They all work the same way. Would be a hoot if that was the actual problem. if the geometry of the shifter below the pin were a bit short and couldn't quite push it all the way in.....

    I won't be able to diagnose that particular 5sp until spring when I yard it out and exchange it for one of freshly rebuilt ones.  I could give the guy a few different shifter styles to try and see if one of them magically works. 

    Edited by zKars

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    3 hours ago, dutchzcarguy said:

    You say FC5W71B ??  you mean the FS5W71B (280zx..)  or (in case of the eurotype 240z 5 speed) the FS5C71B ??  i could of course be wrong but i never heard of the FC5W71B  ..  were does it come out of? 

    And dyslexia and or bad editing skills wins the award again for making sure nothing clear comes out of my fingers.

    FS5W71B is what I mean. Nothing special, just regular zx trans

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    I need a 1-2 shift fork for one of the transmissions:

    That groove on the left edge of the fork is not supposed to be there. It can't push the selector over far enough any more to engage 2nd.

    IMG_3582.JPG

    Part numbers are:

    32805-E9001 or superceded to 32805-Q0101

    Two sources in Japan "may" have them in stock:

    https://www.megazip.net/zapchasti-dlya-avtomobilej/nissan/datsun-2091/720-6047/cg720-616817/shift-control-7732629#

    or 

    https://www.amayama.com/en/part/nissan/32805q0101

    image.png

    Listings also suggest they share with 4 speed transmissions (R4W71B reference below). As I have a couple of stock 240z 4 speeds, I'm going to open one up and see if the shift forks are the same. I also have late 280z 5 sp trans, maybe they are the same in them as well (short ears, 2 muffler hanger castings).

    image.png

    image.png

    I'm ordering both and see what shows up for Christmas

    Edited by zKars

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    I was also wondering if internal 4 speeds parts will swap too. Like reverse gears or reverse idlers? Possibly synchros, if I were going to cheap out and steal synchros out of a 4 speed box for a 5 speed refurbish

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    48 minutes ago, Patcon said:

    I was also wondering if internal 4 speeds parts will swap too. Like reverse gears or reverse idlers? Possibly synchros, if I were going to cheap out and steal synchros out of a 4 speed box for a 5 speed refurbish

    Inquiring minds must know. 4 speed tear down and comparison coming. I have enough. More donors for input shaft clutch alignment tools. Those plastic POS alignment tools that come with clutch kits are, well, not good enough. 

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    Thinking back to some of the 4 speeds I've torn down and scrapped in the past, I seem to remember that the shift forks are steel not aluminum. The 1-2 fork in the five speed also has an extra hole where the 3-4 rod passes through for extra support. I do not remember that extra hole in the 4 speed fork. It may "work" if its exactly the same size, and the roll pin is in the same orientation and position. 

    The 4 speed referenced in my parts search above isn't an FS4W but is R4W71B, so our Z four speeds may be quite bad donors for the Z 5 speeds. 

    Edited by zKars

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    Quick word on parts availability, in this case my badly needed 1-2 shift fork

    Note the list of other Nissan vehicles at the bottom that have a 32805-Q0101

    Also encouraging is the Availability column. Apparently they have more than 1, the other site wasn't quite as encouraging. 

     

    image.png

    image.png

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    Decent quality parts blow up diagrams for the FS5W71B with the included source URL's where you can go to get detailed part numbers for every little itty bitty piece, as well as a merged in part number listing from EuroDat. 

     

    trans gear and shift drawing_Land.pdf

    Edited by zKars
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    Okay, got a 4 speed opened up.

    Short answer about the fork interchange 4 vs 5 sp. No.   

    However, the forks are the right "size" for the selector sleeve, and the rods fit through the fork holes correctly, BUT the roll pins are in different locations, both rotational and longitudinally. So you "could" interchange them IF you re-drill the rods for the pins in the right place. Simple right? They aren't hardened or anything, right? BTW the roll pins are smaller OD on the 4 speed. And since the 4 speed forks are steel, you "could" cut the rod part off and "move" it to the right place for the roll pin on the 5sp rod then weld it back on!   

    Short answer no, but in a pinch, you know race day, car broke, final race of the season, if we could just finish the race, we get first overall, then yes, you can make it work.....

    You know the "C" type trans are more or less the same inside too.... Maybe their forks are backward compatible.

    You're going to make me take a C type apart, aren't you?

    IMG_3759.JPG

    IMG_3761.JPG

    IMG_3760.JPG

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    6 hours ago, zKars said:

     4 speed

    Looks there are two different 4 speeds, and two different 5 speeds.  Parts 5 and 6 respectively.  There's overlap.  Looks like you got mismatched years, maybe.

    http://www.carpartsmanual.com/datsun/Z-1969-1978/power-train/transmission-control/4-speed/from-sep-71

    http://www.carpartsmanual.com/datsun/Z-1969-1978/power-train/transmission-control/5-speed

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    On 11/30/2019 at 8:22 AM, zKars said:

    Can't imagine that the shifter is the cause of not being able to get to 5th. They all work the same way. Would be a hoot if that was the actual problem. if the geometry of the shifter below the pin were a bit short and couldn't quite push it all the way in.....

    I won't be able to diagnose that particular 5sp until spring when I yard it out and exchange it for one of freshly rebuilt ones.  I could give the guy a few different shifter styles to try and see if one of them magically works. 

    I can attest that on my 1978 5 speed transmission you have to have the correct shifter or 5th is a no go.

    I chased my tail trying to find out my issue. I was using my 4 speed shifter. There is a difference between the two.

    Completely solve the issue.

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    2 hours ago, gundee said:

    I can attest that on my 1978 5 speed transmission you have to have the correct shifter or 5th is a no go.

    I chased my tail trying to find out my issue. I was using my 4 speed shifter. There is a difference between the two.

    Completely solve the issue.

    Well there's definitive proof. I will grab my collection of shifters and go try some and see if we can get that sucker in 5th!  I have some of those ZX shifters that have the plastic center section with the springs where the pin goes through. There certainly are differences in the pin to end of shifter ball/nylon bushing that sits in the shifter selector rod hole.

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    Yup, that tip has to get deep enough into the hole and then the tip has to move far enough back to get the rod back far enough. Needs the right length tip for sure.

    Out of all the 5 speed swaps I've done, to have never run across this before is down right astounding. Just another example of something new to learn every day.

     

    Edited by zKars

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    can you tell if the shift rod seems fully seated in the detent? IIRC after shifting you should feel a tiny bit of fore/aft play in the shifter, if not then perhaps the rod had not seated into a detent. in other words the shifter ball is firmly pressing inside the socket after engaging, not good.

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