Jump to content
hatepotholez

Engine only runs with starter fluid

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, siteunseen said:

I don't know if this will be helpful to you in any way but it's a simple trick to test the float "floatability".  On the lid there is a vent/overflow hose connector.  You can use those little red straws that come with aerosol cans like WD-40 to stick down that connector and then it rest on the float's roof.  With that you can see if the float is moving freely.  I actually left one in and watched it raise and lower ever so slightly while I revved the motor.

There should be a small tang coming off the floats hinge that keeps the float from dropping beyond the wall of the float chamber.  It hits the mounting "legs" where the pin goes in.  If it's bent wrong it'll make getting the float back in the chamber a little tough.  You can sort of eyeball the tang the pin rides on in this picture.  Before I learned the "Just SUs DVD" had some old instructions that are no good with the valves they now sell my tangs were ramped up almost to the top of the pin holes.  They should be way down like the picture.

float.png

 

That connections is closest to the carb body and looks similar to this only it stands straight up, vertically.

Image result for fuel hose connector

The WD-40 is a good idea, I can see the float when I remove the vent but wasn't sure if it was moving. I wish I had a tiny camera to put in that hole to see what's going on.

I believe my front float/ plate doesn't have the tongs to stop the float from going all the way back. When I remove the float/plate the float just swings all the way back and then get's stuck, I have to then push it forward. I don't think this is an issue inside the bowl because the float will never swing that far back. Another thing that might be an issue is the pin holding the float, it is very loose. Is it possible that this pin can move back and fourth causing one end of the float to come down?

2 hours ago, siteunseen said:

I'm scared of that radiator fan so I always put the golf tee inside the hose end off the distributor, not the end coming off the front carb, before I crank mine.  If you get those marks on the pulley facing down, you can slide under the car and paint those marks with White-Out or whatever to make them easier to see.  The first one from the left is 0, it's a little bigger notch also, then 5, 10, 15, 20 etc.

Image result for 240z timing marks

So basically, I had the crank at the top mark, and the distributor at the middle of the range. Should I put it at the 10 degree mark and then put the wires on? This is of course if I have the original distributor. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the float pin holes are that wallard out I would buy new floats or bigger pins.  Seems like you might could squeeze the hinge together or apart to tighten them up?  If it's the OE distributor this post about worn springs inside make a lot of sense to me.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, siteunseen said:

If the float pin holes are that wallard out I would buy new floats or bigger pins.  Seems like you might could squeeze the hinge together or apart to tighten them up?  If it's the OE distributor this post about worn springs inside make a lot of sense to me.

Ok i'll try and mess with the pin or where it connects. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok here's some photos. The car is running on its own without any throttle help but the same situation with the distributor. I did notice the small adjustment was fully to one side, so I put that back in the middle. I tried the timing light when it was running and I couldn't get it to 10 degrees but more like 16. This is the only time it would flash, it wouldn't flash at 10 degrees 

im trying to use the Tapatalk app for the photos. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IMG_4276.JPG

IMG_4278.JPG

IMG_4282.JPG

IMG_4284.JPG

IMG_4286.JPG

IMG_4287.JPG

IMG_4291.JPG

IMG_4293.JPG

IMG_4295.JPG

IMG_4298.JPG

IMG_4299.JPG

Edited by hatepotholez
Photos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/31/2016 at 8:00 AM, hatepotholez said:

One thing I did not do is remove the vaccum line. The golf tee should be inserted when the engine is running and the timing light at 10 degreees btdc.

Did you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

Did you?

Yes, I did remove the vacuum and try to time it. It actually helped a lot removing the vacuum, it stayed on without help of the throttle. 

43 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

And no photos.

Uploaded now.

 

The distributor is a D612-53 didn't see this in the 72 FSM. My build date is 6/72.

Edited by hatepotholez

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks to me like your float hanging brackets are bent.  Like somebody twisted the float.  Pretty sure that they should be straight.

As I understand dial-back timing lights, they always flash just like a regular light.  The dial is turned until the flashes happen at the zero mark on your crank pulley.  The number you read on the dial is the timing advance.  But they always flash.  Or you can set the dial to desired advance and move the distributor until the flash happens at zero.  You can also set the dial to zero and just use the marks on the pulley if you want to.  So it's not really clear what you're measuring.  Could be a technique error.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

Looks to me like your float hanging brackets are bent.  Like somebody twisted the float.  Pretty sure that they should be straight.

As I understand dial-back timing lights, they always flash just like a regular light.  The dial is turned until the flashes happen at the zero mark on your crank pulley.  The number you read on the dial is the timing advance.  But they always flash.  Or you can set the dial to desired advance and move the distributor until the flash happens at zero.  You can also set the dial to zero and just use the marks on the pulley if you want to.  So it's not really clear what you're measuring.  Could be a technique error.

Your right it's bent and I'm guessing the ears are missing. I might order another float and see if I can locate another lid. 

So your right on the error, I have no idea how to use it. I have to read the instructions. Basically the light flashes intensely when I turn the dial to 0 and then flashes above 17 degrees. I set the dial to 10 degrees, then I turn the distributor until it flashes but no success. Only flashes below 5 degrees and above 10 degrees. The vacuum tube is off this whole time. 

Any idea  what z this distributor is off of?

Edited by hatepotholez

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This picture is from the 1973 FSM.  Yours is close.

Here's a good old thread with more numbers.  But yours isn't there.

Mike, Walter's thread would be a good one for the knowledge Base. @Mike

1973 FSM dist.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you have a plain old timing light?  Just to get your initial timing right.  You're spending a lot of time on a simple thing.  Or just set it to zero, where it flashes intensely, and use the third mark on the pulley.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

Do you have a plain old timing light?  Just to get your initial timing right.  You're spending a lot of time on a simple thing.  Or just set it to zero, where it flashes intensely, and use the third mark on the pulley.

Unfortunately no, but I will set it to 0 like you stated hopefully that'll work. I did find a reference from @Stanley where the emissions section of the fsm has the d612-53 model number. 

 

 

IMG_4321.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having been fooling with mine these past few days, your float tangs are bent way too high.  Just like mine were and there was very little gas in the float chambers.  I bet you set yours the way I did, upside down resting on the pin.  They were a pain getting them bent back to a normal "ramp" like they should be.  I thought about buying new ones too but didn't, maybe you should?  I don't have a lot to do in this life so spending hours to save a few dollars is no big deal. :)

If you get them close to this picture they'll just be a millimeter or two off.

float.png

After bending them like new ones look, here's where I was.  Hard to see but it's about 2mm high in this picture.

DSC01678.JPG

Edited by siteunseen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so i set the light at 0 and rotated to the third mark. The car wont even stay on, it dies and then wont restart. I did notice my new plugs are now black and the car is shooting black exhaust. the car is running ridiculously rich, cant even go near the car because my eyes gets so watery. The float issue is partially fixed, I  need a new gasket and that issue will be solved.

Can the car run so rich that it wont run at the correct timing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Set the mark at 10 degrees and remove the distributor cap.  Make sure that the #1 cylinder is the one that's getting the spark at that time.  Where the rotor is pointing, and the points will have just started to open.  With all of the things that you have going on you probably need to start from scratch.  It's actually very easy to do, just get the various parts aligned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just saw your pictures on the other forum.  You really should take some time to think about the combustion cycle and the various things that need to happen in sequence.  You're way back at 101 level, no offense.  

Get the damper mark, and the cam marks (notch and groove with the chain tight), and the points about to open (the bump on the distributor shaft), and the rotor pointing at the correct plug wire (#1).  All together, at the same time.  Just start by turning the engine in the proper direction until the damper mark is at zero, then look at all of the areas I listed, and make sure things are correct.  The notch and groove are shown in the Engine Mechanical chapter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While you have the floats detached from the lids put a small amount of black RTV or whatever fuel resistant adhesive around the bottom of the lids and glue the cork gaskets to the lids. The thin layer dries fast so do one at a time. Without the floats you can get the lids on quicker. Put the screws in and slightly tighten them down leaving the lid on overnight. You won't have to worry with those gaskets for a long time.

How many turns out are the nozzles? If you have the floats close  then 2.5 counter clockwise should be good while you figure out the timing. If your float tangs were that high I'd bet you had to run the nozzles way down, like 4 or 5 turns? That would blacken those plugs now that the float level is close. Hit them with a wire brush or wheel and see if they're still good. good luck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

Set the mark at 10 degrees and remove the distributor cap.  Make sure that the #1 cylinder is the one that's getting the spark at that time.  Where the rotor is pointing, and the points will have just started to open.  With all of the things that you have going on you probably need to start from scratch.  It's actually very easy to do, just get the various parts aligned.

Ok I'll try this.

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

I just saw your pictures on the other forum.  You really should take some time to think about the combustion cycle and the various things that need to happen in sequence.  You're way back at 101 level, no offense.  

Get the damper mark, and the cam marks (notch and groove with the chain tight), and the points about to open (the bump on the distributor shaft), and the rotor pointing at the correct plug wire (#1).  All together, at the same time.  Just start by turning the engine in the proper direction until the damper mark is at zero, then look at all of the areas I listed, and make sure things are correct.  The notch and groove are shown in the Engine Mechanical chapter.

No offense taken. But I did verify TDC at the lobes, piston up, notch on the crank, rotor pointing towards the drivers side headlight. . The only thing I did not verify was the timing marks on the chain, this engine was rebuilt before I purchased it. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, siteunseen said:

While you have the floats detached from the lids put a small amount of black RTV or whatever fuel resistant adhesive around the bottom of the lids and glue the cork gaskets to the lids. The thin layer dries fast so do one at a time. Without the floats you can get the lids on quicker. Put the screws in and slightly tighten them down leaving the lid on overnight. You won't have to worry with those gaskets for a long time.

How many turns out are the nozzles? If you have the floats close  then 2.5 counter clockwise should be good while you figure out the timing. If your float tangs were that high I'd bet you had to run the nozzles way down, like 4 or 5 turns? That would blacken those plugs now that the float level is close. Hit them with a wire brush or wheel and see if they're still good. good luck

Thanks i'll try that. The nozzles are 2.5 down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a picture from the FSM showing the notch and groove inspection.  The groove is on the plate behind the sprccket and the notch is in the edge of the sprocket, next to the plate.

1973 n g.PNG

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This the first one I glued sometime this past summer. Off and on at least four times. Just don't over tighten the screws. 

I understand you have bigger problems I'm just bored. :D

 

20170102_201821.jpg

Here's some pictures of what ZH is talking about.

http://atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/timing/mechtime.html

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a great reference from atlanticz.ca.  The drawings in the FSM don't give a good idea of what they actually look like.  I cut out the part that shows the notch and groove, although the yellow arrow is off a bit..

Not quite.PNG

 

Edited by Zed Head
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, siteunseen said:

This the first one I glued sometime this past summer. Off and on at least four times. Just don't over tighten the screws. 

I understand you have bigger problems I'm just bored. :D

 

20170102_201821.jpg

Here's some pictures of what ZH is talking about.

http://atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/timing/mechtime.html

 

Thanks.

13 hours ago, Zed Head said:

That's a great reference from atlanticz.ca.  The drawings in the FSM don't give a good idea of what they actually look like.  I cut out the part that shows the notch and groove, although the yellow arrow is off a bit..

Does anyone else find it odd that the image below shows up on every page?  Or is it just my computer that does it?  Fluids and capacities?  Really?

Not quite.PNG

 

Yes, I do have this photo actually saved to my phone. I don't recall seeing that notch, but I will check again now knowing that it's actually on the camshaft holding plate and not the actual cam gear itself. 

Edited by hatepotholez

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok some great progress today. I used a dial gauge(like a piston stop) inserted into cyl 1 spark plug hole to find absolute TDC. This worked great. But even before this I tried looking for the notch and groove on the cam plate and cam gear, no luck maybe I didn't look hard enough. Anyway it was cold so I continued, I got TDC on cyl 1, using the gauge on the compression stroke, the cam lobes were in the V orientation. I looked down on my damper and it was no where near 0 TDC, more like 50 degrees. I knew the issue right away, my damper was twisted at some point. So I used a white ink pen and made a mark to locate the new TDC mark. I also saw my distributor tang was at 12 not 11:25. Went on to the distributor locked it down and tried to start it, had to play with the distributor a little bit and then it ran. I was able to set the distributor where there was no backfiring and the engine revved easily. I then used the timing light which is useless as my damper has incorrect measurements. I noticed the timing was maybe at 10-15 degrees, this is a very rough estimate.  As of now i'm done with the timing, I will have to one weekend thoroughly go over the timing. I'll look for the notch and groove, check to see at what pin my cam gear was installed on, check crank to cam timing,  drop the oil pump and realign the distributor drive, install a new damper.

The next is to tackle the carbs, I readjusted the front float and the car was less rich than before. I tried looking for some clear hoses to check my float levels(thanks Peter for this suggestion and the multiple other suggestion) but couldn't find any. But in the meantime I will buy some plastic tubing and try to make some float level gauges from the bowl drain bolts. This float issue are a real pain in the arse, I'm done trying to bend them this way and that way to get it straight. I know for sure the front carb has more gas in the bowl as compared to the rear per the WD-40 stick per @siteunseen(thanks!) I'm going to buy some new ones and call it a day. My carbs btw are almost synced as I used my uni-syn to check between them so once I fix the float levels and some minor adjustments they should be good to go.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.