$38K for an Automatic!

[IdahoKidd]

I have to agree with Mike B and FastWoman. Both present solid arguments. With all due respect to Escanlon, I think his argument is more emotionally driven. We can wish these cars to be something more than they are but they simply aren't. They are unique, but hardly rare. For every one that is in "show" or "restored" or choose your adjective, there are 500 available that are not. It is sort of like the hot chick, yeah, everybody would like to have one, some people will spend a stupid amount of money to be around one, but the nearly hot chick is by far the more realistic to be around. I don't believe for a minute that someone comes to this site, reads this or any other review, and cancels his purchase for a Z. Nothing but buyer demand determines the value of this car or any other. There isn't a lot of demand for this car in the price range above $5000. There are simply too many to choose from. To see a price of $38,000 elicits out loud laughter and actually creates a loss of credibility. But, if the seller can get that kind of money, good for him. Someone with money to blow might, might, buy this car for that amount. (If you had $38K to spend on a car, would you buy this one?) Would two of these in the same ebay auction time frame sell for the same price? I would think that would determine the ebay value at least. Very rarely is there a spirited bidding war for a Z after $6000.

As with the seller, and the members of this site, everyone is entitled to their own opion. I hope everything remains spirited but friendly and respectable. I personally view this site as an opportunity to receive help about my Z, offer help to others about their Z, and participate in a common comradery. This is my tailgate party before a weekend with my Z.

Leonard

[EverRude]

As some 240's get restored to become more valuable more die to become parts cars or scrap or just rust away forgotten. As long as this continues the ratio of nice vs junk z's. Will dwindle. It'll be harder to find a beater z that worth restoring because parts and parts cars wont exist.

Someone correctly mentioned that a mustang coupe and a 240 can be valued around the same in same condition. However the cost and headache to restore a mustang is far less due to the large aftermarket and resttoration part support the stang has.

In 20 years with better aftermarket support it might be too expensive drive a 240 much less restore one for the common man.

I think the buy it now is a little high but in 20 years with good care that could be one of the few 240's left.

[Unkle]

There's no rules for bashing outrageous pricing - and witty comments can have decent flavour .

Someone reminds me of haughty Charles from M*A*S*H flicking ''regular'' folk in the ear with Harvard gusto........

Anyway the car is priced the way it is , and someone will make an off ebay offer he can't refuse . That's the game

now , so buyer and seller get around the fees . My take and 2 cents !

Edited April 15, 2011 by Unkle
sp

[7T1240]

someone will make an off ebay offer he can't refuse . That's the game

now , so buyer and seller get around the fees . My take and 2 cents !

There have been two recent Z car auctions on ebay that I put on my Watch List, as I wanted to see where they would end up price wise. The first, linked here http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330550557206&viewitem=&hsspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT had 20 plus bidders and exceeded the reserve of $17,500 in the first few days. The next time I checked back, the auction had ended prematurely with the seller's explanation "This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available." The second auction was a similar situation. Unkle, I suspect when you say that's the game now, at least in some cases, you are absolutely spot on.

Gary S.

[motorman7]

Wasn't going to say anything, but decided I have a few thoughts to share (it's because I'm getting old). When I think of this car, the thing that keeps coming to mind is the antiques road show. You see over and over how things are worth more in their untouched condition. Unfortunately, many of the people on the road show 'clean-up' their antique resulting in a large loss of value. The same can be said about coins. Take off the patina of that 1909 VDB penny and you've turned your $800 penny (yes, $800 penny) and turned it into a $40 peice of shiny copper. Present both pennies to a kid and guess which one he picks?

The cost to restore a car to that condition is often brought up. That is a non-issue. How much to restore your antique to its original condition? In doing so youv'e just missed the point, and 9 times out of ten, more than halved its value. The beauty of the e-bay car is it is virtually untouched. There are very few like it, very few. Are there better looking cars, absolutely. Faster Z's, definitely. As for worth, that is for the market to decide. But cars this original are hard to find and rare. Just my two cents -(and wish one of those cents was an untouched 1909 VDB).

Edited April 16, 2011 by motorman7

[EScanlon]

And the last few posts delineate what I'm referring to in my points regarding price-bashing. They've all shown that the price can be discussed as being exorbitant and highly unlikely of being achieved, while yet not devolving into adolescent one-upmanship of nit-picking it on trivial items, which is where I felt Fastwoman's initial post was steering it to.

The car is a beautiful example of a well kept ORIGINAL vehicle, and as has been mentioned shouldn't be classified in the same category as a restoration/refresh vehicle. Should it be worth more? Absolutely, LOTS more than a plain old survivor and, in my opinion, more than a restored vehicle. How much? That I can't say as I haven't been comparing what I paid for my cars with current or past sales. I know I got good and bad deals, I don't need to confirm any one of them as being good or bad. I'll leave the assesment to others who peruse the classifieds, craig's list, bring-a-trailer, e-bay, etc. to do.

I would like to point out however, that this site is known as a more sedate, mature and intelligent site than another one that just recently changed ownership. Even other sites with more specialized and different interests than the ones here, refer people to us when discussions get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the car. It is for THAT reason that I speak out against the "vehement denigrating posts" as they insult the majority of those who post here. Whether one person will read those posts/threads and walk away from a car is undoubtedly a far-fetched thought, BUT having spoken to both manufacturers of replacement and after-market parts, as well as other vehicle marque enthusiasts, who have perused some of those specific discussions, I know that they've sullied our otherwise good reputation. As one professional car judge put it... "Raw meat in a tank of pirahnas", after I mentioned he should check this site out for further info on the Z.

Peace...

E

[ollie]

There have been two recent Z car auctions on ebay that I put on my Watch List, as I wanted to see where they would end up price wise. The first, linked here http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330550557206&viewitem=&hsspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT had 20 plus bidders and exceeded the reserve of $17,500 in the first few days. The next time I checked back, the auction had ended prematurely with the seller's explanation "This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available." The second auction was a similar situation. Unkle, I suspect when you say that's the game now, at least in some cases, you are absolutely spot on.

Gary S.

The reserve on the car your linked to was $16500, fyi. The second 72 orange car was sold early on, it was listed on the seller's website at $24,500...he is a dealer, the car linked above was private collector.

[carrott]

I can't but agree with Escanlon, every time and I mean every time a z is for sale someone on this site always talks the price down ,why? . It makes you think that those people would rather own a 120y. If that car sells for the asking price then all our cars go up in value as it is the new bench mark. Those knockers should stick to Sunday walks through used car yards if they love tyre kicking so much.

[Willoughby Z]

My viewing of the photos suggested some hatch rust but I did think that perhaps my interpretation was incorrect-why show a photo with apparent rust when the ad says,"no rust"? A correction or opinion to the contrary, that the photo showed grime or adhesive residue was helpful.

auzziez refered to the car as "sweet" and expressed that he would be surprised if the car were to fetch that price. FastWoman noted that she thought the car was "Nice!" and followed with an opinion that it looked like rust.

I'm hard pressed to read "bashing" into any of the first posts (..." used to imply that the criticism of these groups or individuals is excessive, too frequent, uncompromising or inappropriate...).

The "bashing" seemed to evolve later.

[DC871F]

If that car sells for the asking price then all our cars go up in value as it is the new bench mark. Those knockers should stick to Sunday walks through used car yards if they love tyre kicking so much.

Not necessarily true. The internet is making many thing "old" go up in price because I believe it is making people more lazy when it comes to the hunt for such items.

I bet if you went to CL, Ebay, or just google "240Z for sale" you will find plenty of cars that will come up, in various conditions, but I guarantee you will find one that is close to what you consider acceptable to your specific requirements, probably in a price range that would also be acceptable. Until you get to a point to where you cant find one then we can talk about asking crazy money for the average car, which the one we are discussing is not, but will artificially inflate the average cost.

The VW market is the same way, and I have watched as people are getting ridiculous money for a car that is NOT rare.

Whether anybody here who thinks about the prospect of making a boat load of money turning an older Z over, just remember, these cars (240Z's in general) are not rare, but a fool and their money will be soon departed.

Edited April 16, 2011 by DC871F

[Mike B]

I seem to have struck a nerve with you Mike B. Perhaps because you've been one of those whose posts have been so pointed at bashing pricing??

Yes, I guess you could say you have struck a nerve. I get tired of seeing you bash the members on this site, and Z owners in general, for posting harmless comments. If you say I am one of the people that post offense “price bashing” posts, it must be true . Funny that I have never heard it from anyone else. Maybe you have let your moderator status go to your head and you think you need to implement your own guidelines about what people can and can’t post on this site? You’re fear-mongering attitude of “if anyone says anything negative or questions the price of a Z for sale it will devalue all our cars”, is just ridiculous to me.

By the way, is there a bit of a different standard for you than the rest of us? Take a look at my comments in this thread or any other thread and compare them to yours in this one (post #11) http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?41262-1970-240z-Please-help-me!-thank-you&p=354376&viewfull=1#post354376 then let us know which is more “denigrating” as you put it (somehow I think you will still say it is me.)

That's a parts car.

There is WAY too much rust damage in just the pictures you've posted for a "California" car and way more than you think just hiding behind the metal waiting for you to uncover it.

$400 TOPS, and that's considering the Valve Cover, the Series I steering wheel and other items that might be salvageable.

As far as the rest:

Rust on the hatch ledge both sides.

Battery area rust THROUGH

Both bumpers bent and tweaked.

One Headlight Scoop obviously broken

Front Spoiler also possibly damaged

Passenger door showing extensive rust out from inside

Rocker panel dog leg showing rust blisters

Passenger side front fender showing rust through

and lastly, but by no means least... that rust above the windshield. That one is probably the most indicative of the poor care this car has received.

I'd pass on it, except for parts.

Once again, you overracted to IdahoKidd’s comments, which I interpret (yes my OPINION) to be a bit of a lighthearted comparison to his car for sale (white vs black interior), etc. And for the record Leonard, I do think your car is at least very reasonably priced and probably under priced (my OPINION only, if Escanlon will allow me to have one). I am surprised you haven’t had any interest yet, but like Arne had mentioned, the classifieds section on this site may be a good way to sell parts, but entire cars don’t seem to do as well for some reason. Ebay or craigslist may be a better way to attract more potential buyers.

…Mentions several items; the car's "real" worth, a "bad deal" and a "fair price", yet all of these aren't fixed values. You preface it with "To me..." which says they are YOUR opinion, and therefore not a fact nor actual reference source such as NADA / Kelly / Hagerty et al. Who put you in charge of deciding "fair pricing" for Z's?

Uh, no one put me in charge of deciding “fair pricing” for Z’s, which is EXACTLY why I prefaced my comment with “To me…”. I guess that was lost on you. Yes, the pricing comments were my opinions. I try to keep with up ebay/craigslist pricing and TV auctions and car shows (what’s my car worth, etc…) on which to base my opinions, but I guess that is not allowed? I thought the purpose of a discussion forum, was to discuss our opinions, including pricing. I guess that is fine as long as they all agree with yours?

As far as the price, it does seem disproportionate to what other cars of similar value have been selling for, but I haven't been searching for another car nor trying to compare pricing to prove how over or under priced they are.

Ok, so isn’t that basically the same opinion as what the original poster and I posted? So what are you basing YOUR valuation on if you admit you don’t watch any comparable recent sales?

Your comments about being "naive" are at best... insulting, which I note. Sadly, they do point out your myopic viewpoint... if it doesn't support your theory, the data must be ignored.

I would say my comment is accurate, and no more insulting than what I see you post to other members here on a regular basis.

I personally talked to several manufacturers there and found that they simply don't see it as being profitable... not because of the supposed vehicle numbers you cite, but that the price they would have to ask for the part would not be paid. The number of vehicles IS an attractive point, the item that kills the deal... the current owners unwillingness to pay for the parts.

Exactly my point. If price is no object, ANY parts can be reproduced. The problem IS the size of the market. Set up costs are the bulk of the cost to manufacture something. If you only make a small number of parts, the per unit cost ends up being too high to sell enough to cover your costs, so they aren’t economically viable to make reproductions.

As one professional car judge put it... "Raw meat in a tank of pirahnas", after I mentioned he should check this site out for further info on the Z.

What exactly is a “professional car judge”? I’ve been to the last two national Z conventions and meet most, if not all, the judges (even did a little bit of judging myself at one) and they are just regular Z people like anyone else. No one gets paid, so I am not sure that would qualify as much of “profession”. I think this site is pretty well moderated, by the other mods at least. I guess you feel differently and would like to see more of a crack down on comments that offend you somehow?

So anyway, back to the rest of this thread….

FastWoman, your comparison of the Z to the Miata is right on. I think the early days of the Miata and the Z (S30) were very similar. Both were innovative reasonably priced sports cars with high initial demand and waiting lists to get one. Both were favorites of hobby and professional racers (the Miata still is). Both were produced in relatively high numbers. I think the Miata has actually been able to stay a lot closer to its original design and market niche than the Z has. The Z turned into an expensive, overly complex car and some models became more luxury/touring than sports oriented. I also wonder if the Miata will ever become collectable and people will restore them. I think they made several special edition versions that may hold their value better than others (although I think those were mostly paint and trim differences, but I could be wrong). I wonder if people will restore older model year Miatas when newer model years that still embody the original concept, but have been improved, can still be bought new or slightly used. We owned a 1990 Miata for a few years when we lived in Hawaii and it was a great car for that environment. Of course I had a 240Z then too, so it was a tough decision which to drive for the day.

I also agree with the comments that the costs to restore any car are about the same. I think Z’s sell for similar prices as many base model V-6 muscle cars, at least ones that are in pretty good shape or restored to a fairly high level. Unfortunately, that may not be enough to cover the cost to get the car to that level. It’s generally only the very limited production/ high performance models that sell for big money. Well done restomods also seem to be a niche gaining in popularity and price, for both Z’s and muscle cars.

The topic of survivor cars vs restored cars is also interesting. I’ve seen unrestored survivor cars sell for good prices on TV auctions. The only problem I see with owning one is if the value of it is due to being a low mileage all original survivor, it would be difficult to drive it without devaluing the car too much. With a restored car, you can always restore it again, if need be.

-Mike

[Arne]

OK, people, that's enough. Time for everyone to take a deep breath and relax.