$30,000 Datsun 240z's....Get yours before it's too late

[Carl Beck]

Hi Carl,

Not sure if you will remember me. I was a member of the IZCC with a member number of like 3250 or so...

Hi Rob:

Sent you a Private Message...aka PM...

great to hear from you...

Carl

[mally002]

Mally, would you be able to send me that article???

I'll look for it next week.....it's somewhere in my stack of magazines.

[conedodger]

Carl mentioned something in a PM to me. Carl and I have known each other in the cyber sense for the better part of 10-15 years. Perhaps 5 years ago, I went as Carl puts it "to the dark side" and got into Porsches. I now own a 914 and a 911. I am quite active in the 914 forums. The 914 was a car that didn't really make it. Just over 100K were made in 6 cylinder (3200) and 4 cylinder models. It was a great car without a doubt and all you have to do is drive one to know that. When asked by 914 people why I think the car died out I tell them the Z beat it. Not just because it is a great car, they are both great cars. The Z beat it because of price and just plain sexy looks. In the end, the economics just wouldn't work for Porsche any more and they pulled the plug. Now of course, with the Boxster, Cayman and, Carrera GT they have gone back to the great middle motor platform.

[Arne]

Now of course, with the Boxster, Cayman and, Carrera GT they have gone back to the great middle motor platform.

But they have totally abandoned the idea of building a car great handling car that ordinary people can afford. And even the 914 wasn't their idea, the project was initiated by VW.

Of course, with the starting price of new 350Zs over $30k, Nissan has left that niche behind as well. When the 240Z was introduced, it was as cheap or cheaper than Camaros and Mustangs. Not just than the Z-28s, SS's and Mach 1's, but even the normal small motored cars. If Nissan made something similar to the 350Z but priced like a V6 Mustang, they wouldn't be able to keep them on the lots.

[xray]

But they have totally abandoned the idea of building a car great handling car that ordinary people can afford. And even the 914 wasn't their idea, the project was initiated by VW.

Of course, with the starting price of new 350Zs over $30k, Nissan has left that niche behind as well. When the 240Z was introduced, it was as cheap or cheaper than Camaros and Mustangs. Not just than the Z-28s, SS's and Mach 1's, but even the normal small motored cars. If Nissan made something similar to the 350Z but priced like a V6 Mustang, they wouldn't be able to keep them on the lots.

Must...pick...nits... (sorry)

VW and Porsche were two sides of the same coin for many years (look at the surname of the designer of the original Volkswagen) and still were when the 914 project rolled around. IIRC, the 914 was to be sold as a VW in 4-cyl version and a Porsche as a 6-cyl model.

Starting price of new 350Z over 30k? Is something Z-related finally cheaper here on the East Coast??? Base coupes here in NC are still 27.9k MSRP, and I imagine you could talk a good bargain given the slowdown in car sales the past few months.

I do agree, Arne, that a lighter less GT-like car that had a tight suspension, solid handling and adequate power would sell quite well in the low to mid-20k range. People looking for sporty cars may start wanting something with as much fun factor as green factor, and having a lighter, more fuel-efficient sportscar (I think) may show folks a better way to go. If someone has nearly 40k to spend (NISMO Z) would they still spend it on a Z, or would they reach a little higher for the 135/Boxster or over to the musclecar side in the G8, Mustang, base Corvette etc?

I am sort of surprised and a little disappointed Nissan didn't fight in the Miata War--I like to think they could've produced something formidable like a retro 510...

[conedodger]

I have to agree with Steve on this one... Porsche had the project and went to Nordhoff with it. They agreed with a handshake and a plan on a paper napkin that Porsche that Karmann would build the bodies and Porsche would trim the six cylinders while VW-Porsche a new joint venture would build the four cylinders.

Porsche was the original designer of the VW flat four motor as well as many other projects.

Currently Porsche owns a controlling interest in VW...

Sadly, I think you are partly right though in one regard. But I think Porsche has a misguided idea that the Boxster and Cayman are affordable... The Cayman is an INCREDIBLE handling car. But not for everyman.

[Arne]

OK, mea culpa. I knew about the handshake deal between VW and Porsche, but didn't express it correctly. My bad.

And I'll also admit that I was guessing on the starting price of the 350Z, based on a glance or two at the cars in the local showroom as I head to the parts department. I should know better than that, too.

Lastly, I guess I don't blame Nissan too much for not offering a lighter and more affordable sports/GT car. We American consumers have become jaded. When did things change so much that an average 4 door sedan with less than 200 HP became un-inspiring? If consumers here are expecting their sports cars to out perform their mid-size sedans, said sports car must be excessively over-engineered and over-powered. Granted, with today's safety regs, we're not going to see a mass produced sports/GT at 2400 pounds ever again. But a lighter, less frivolously equipped sports/GT with a small, tight-revving motor of 200 HP or so would sure be attractive to many of us. Or so it seems to me.

Then again, I'm not the target market of today's automakers. I seldom buy new cars, and when I do I tend to keep them for 10 years or more...

[conedodger]

Arne, you are absolutely correct in that Porsche has abandoned everyman. But I think their marketing strategy is to buy VW and drop a little "Porsche" into the VW line and thereby pump the sales to everyman. I had a student tell me the other day that his Jetta has Porsche brakes from the factory.

This is an interesting discussion. I originally was talking about the dynamics that killed the 914 and we only touched on a couple. Lets not forget the OPEC thing and people feeling economically "shakey" just as we are now here in the US.

I think Mitsubishi and Subaru are marketing to everyman as far as sporty handling and such. The WRX sti even appeals to me!

But like you, I am not much of a new car buyer these days. I don't think of cars as status any more. I laugh at the people who think because I own two Porsches I must be rich. The newest vehicle that I have is my 4Runner and I have 145K miles and it is 9 years old! I intended to drive it into the ground but it is my wife's DD and she is concerned with status so I am going to have to buy something newer.

[Carl Beck]

Dear Pontiac:

Please produce the Solstice Coupe that you originally presented at the Detroit Auto Show. The roadster is nice, but the market for a lighter weight, less expensive version would be 10x that of the roadster.

You can easily trim 250 lbs off the roadsters 2860 lbs with a Hatch Back Coupe, thus bringing the weight down closer to 2600 lbs. Costs can also be brought down with a less expensive coupe, so we could see the GPX Coupe retail for something under $23,995.00, and the Solstice GT at $19,500.00.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

260HP in a 2600lbs car = 10lbs per HP

150HP in a 2350lbs car = 15.6 lbs per HP (240Z)

$3526.00 in 1970 Dollars = aprox $18,500.00 in todays dollars. Then you have to add the costs of all Federal Requirements.. and your pretty close to $24K. Same money...

A Solstice takes up about the exact space in the garage as a 240Z. If only they would mass produce the coupe... But that might eat into Corvette sales too deeply...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I had a 67 Porsche 911S and a 55 T-Bird when I bought my first 240-Z in March of 1970. Drove the Z for six months, then decided to sell the Porsche. Kept the T-Bird for a couple more years, then sold it too.

The last "new" car that I bought for myself, is the 72 240-Z that I still have today. I've bought new cars for wives... but there really hasn't been anything that I could afford, produced that simply drove me wild...

So what 911 do you have now Rob?

FWIW,

Carl

[hls30.com]

... there really hasn't been anything that I could afford, produced that simply drove me wild...

FWIW,

Carl

I resemble that remark profusely!

Will

[bpilati]

Dear Pontiac:

Please produce the Solstice Coupe that you originally presented at the Detroit Auto Show. The roadster is nice, but the market for a lighter weight, less expensive version would be 10x that of the roadster.

You can easily trim 250 lbs off the roadsters 2860 lbs with a Hatch Back Coupe, thus bringing the weight down closer to 2600 lbs. Costs can also be brought down with a less expensive coupe, so we could see the GPX Coupe retail for something under $23,995.00, and the Solstice GT at $19,500.00.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

260HP in a 2600lbs car = 10lbs per HP

150HP in a 2350lbs car = 15.6 lbs per HP (240Z)

$3526.00 in 1970 Dollars = aprox $18,500.00 in todays dollars. Then you have to add the costs of all Federal Requirements.. and your pretty close to $24K. Same money...

A Solstice takes up about the exact space in the garage as a 240Z. If only they would mass produce the coupe... But that might eat into Corvette sales too deeply...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I had a 67 Porsche 911S and a 55 T-Bird when I bought my first 240-Z in March of 1970. Drove the Z for six months, then decided to sell the Porsche. Kept the T-Bird for a couple more years, then sold it too.

The last "new" car that I bought for myself, is the 72 240-Z that I still have today. I've bought new cars for wives... but there really hasn't been anything that I could afford, produced that simply drove me wild...

So what 911 do you have now Rob?

FWIW,

Carl

Including wives?

[conedodger]

Dear Pontiac:

Please produce the Solstice Coupe that you originally presented at the Detroit Auto Show. The roadster is nice, but the market for a lighter weight, less expensive version would be 10x that of the roadster.

You can easily trim 250 lbs off the roadsters 2860 lbs with a Hatch Back Coupe, thus bringing the weight down closer to 2600 lbs. Costs can also be brought down with a less expensive coupe, so we could see the GPX Coupe retail for something under $23,995.00, and the Solstice GT at $19,500.00.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

260HP in a 2600lbs car = 10lbs per HP

150HP in a 2350lbs car = 15.6 lbs per HP (240Z)

$3526.00 in 1970 Dollars = aprox $18,500.00 in todays dollars. Then you have to add the costs of all Federal Requirements.. and your pretty close to $24K. Same money...

A Solstice takes up about the exact space in the garage as a 240Z. If only they would mass produce the coupe... But that might eat into Corvette sales too deeply...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I had a 67 Porsche 911S and a 55 T-Bird when I bought my first 240-Z in March of 1970. Drove the Z for six months, then decided to sell the Porsche. Kept the T-Bird for a couple more years, then sold it too.

The last "new" car that I bought for myself, is the 72 240-Z that I still have today. I've bought new cars for wives... but there really hasn't been anything that I could afford, produced that simply drove me wild...

So what 911 do you have now Rob?

FWIW,

Carl

Carl,

How many wives do you have? I thought you were in Florida not Utah??? :cheeky:

My daily driver is an '84 911 Carrera Sunroof Coupe with 65K miles. I bought it from the original owner in absolute stock condition at 50K miles about 5 years ago. He gave me a box and in it was every part that he had taken off and replaced in the Porsche parts department box the new part came in. I have every burned out bulb from new... Thank God he didn't save oil filters and oil!

Rob