Poindexter

HLS30-23788 Build date of 2/71 engine L24-30585 later 5-speed- #7X04388 920 Gold over Black- all original paint, never restored

I like to dream yes, yes, right between my sound machine On a cloud of sound I drift in the night Any place it goes is right Goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here Well, you don't know what we can find Why don't you come with me little girl On a magic carpet ride You don't know what we can see Why don't you tell your dreams to me Fantasy will set you free Close your eyes girl Look inside girl Let the sound take you away... Beautiful, man. Just groovy. Is that Z 112 Yellow?

These linked threads are all excellent, and I'm learning more and more from them. Thanks to you all. This brings up a question I've always wondered about. For an original paint car, how much chip repair can ruin the value? Obviously it needs to be done well, but does it need to be done professionally or else? I literally have less than 1 square foot of paint chip repairs spread out over the entire body, and half of it is on one rocker panel, shown here behind the LF wheel, where it looks like somebody pulled off a 4" x 10" section clean down to bare metal. The next largest spot is silver-dollar sized, and the rest are small chips, less than pencil-eraser sized, especially around the edges of the hatch.

Dennis- I have a friend who is a serious collector in California- he in fact owned all of my cars before me, which at one time included a mid-70's Porsche Targa with an seriously-upgraded engine, a Series 3 E-Type, V-12 Jag coupe, and my 2/71 Z. He also had tons of other cars going in and out during this time. The cars he chose to drive most of all, for an entire year, were my 240Z, and his 914-6. That is a pretty telling tale. It must be an amazing handling car, as very few other cars got him as excited. The Porsche is long gone, the Jag is being preserved in an incredible state, sold to a good friend, and I'm watching over the Z. And my primary reason for considering the values of these cars is replacement cost insurance. Original paint in my condition is getting incredibly rare, and it's one of the things I like most about my gal.

xray, you rock! Excellent idea. I'm going to do the same thing in several directions in hopes of documenting any unwelcomed motions under the car. I'd love to be able to just hit it as hard as I wanted on every shift. It just doesn't respond that well to such treatment, at least until the clutch is fully engaged- too touchy- but then she just loves to be run up hard. :laugh: I sometimes forget just how violent the forces involved in the powertrain can be.

I guess that the thought behind my question is primarily why aren't these cars going up in value more, due to their much lower original production figures, their current rate of decay and removal from the road, and then the one area which I think we have some control over- the demand. I imagine that if more people were actually knew of, and were made aware of the excellent characteristics of these cars- the handling, overall drivability, ability to customize, to name but a few, perhaps there might be more upward pressure on their value. On one hand it's great that there appear to be many very nice, very drivable Z's out there to be had for under $10,000. It's been my impression that the Mustang and Corvette- produced in many multiple of the Z's numbers- still are more highly valued, perhaps I'm completely off in this. I've been told that the same year cars, 69-71, except for specific cars like the Mach 1, or the big block Vette's, do not have significantly higher valuations than most Z's. Maybe there is more latitude in condition for an equivalent value, in the case where rust may be taking more Z's than the other marques. So I guess that more reading and research is in order- to establish exactly what these values really are before I can come to any conclusion. Perhaps it's just plain ego, hoping for more "respect" for our cars. That's probably the motivating factor. I hate it when people lump all older Japanese cars into the same bundle- that being worthless. This might be an uphill battle, as somebody mentioned. To many (the uninformed) they're just "little Japanese cars", while I believe that they're so much more than that. And something Carl said made me wonder- "Sports Cars in general have never been a significant part of the total American Automotive Market." That blows my mind, because it's just I would have thought otherwise- but then again I'm not in any position to really know with any certainty. Other than the occasional reading, I have no in depth exposure to the secondary car market, but I did always think that sports cars drove the collector market (sorry couldn't resist the pun ) and perhaps not in the sense of sheer quantity, but certainly in publicity and awareness and appeal to the balance of the non-collecting public, especially as a hobby. Does this mean that it's the 57 Bel Air's and the 62 Lincoln's, and even hot rods that comprise much of the market as Carl has defined it? I really don't know- I want to though. I'm totally fascinated with these- and a few other- cars. They're part of a type of product that just seem perfect to me, in their own way. Brands and products like Burberry, Brooks Brothers, and Rolex to name a few that have an implicit and very real quality over the long haul- quality regardless of their respective cost or market penetration. And I think that these cars also belong in a special class of vehicle too, represented by what I consider the only undisputed proof- higher valuation. There are so many great responses in here that I'll have to read them again later when my house empties out and quiets down. It's obviously one of those subjects with no absolute resolution.

Isn't there a concern with the slightly off-axis nature of the drive train? Something that was addressed and corrected by- I seem to recall- moving the diff backwards something like 35 mm? I have the usual clunks and groans too, but none of them are particularly annoying or demanding of immediate attention- certainly not with a To Do list as long as mine. Is this perhaps a lead?

At its core, these are exactly my thoughts. Here we have what I believe is one of the truly greatest cars ever built- the Z's. Grand Touring at its best, light weight, sweet handling, a nice hatch/storage area, a special nimbleness and feel, the fantastic engine, an ability to modify almost every system leading to personalization and handling options in nearly any flavor imaginable, as well as a relatively huge stockpile of OEM parts and a thriving aftermarket. I could go on. On the other hand you have a group of these "other" cars, which almost uniformly have greater market value across most of their classes. Why? It is difficult at best to compare an American muscle car, or mere two-seater with a lower-powered engine, in a Mustang or Corvette- just to pick 2- to the Z car, but in many opinions, and under many definable circumstances and uses, the Z's are "better" cars. To be fair, the same claim can be made for the "contenders" which have their own merits (and weaknesses). The point is maddening and personal. Why aren't our Z's valued more highly? A painting is only worth what people will pay for it. Wishing that my car could be worth tens of thousands of dollars is not unreasonable but it won't make it so. And this is only one singularly extraordinary product that has so much untapped intrinsic value that is not being fully realized, IMHO. I think we can and should consider our options to come up with a strategy so that these great cars can achieve a greater public image and *thereby* perhaps a greater value in the secondary market. It's certainly close enough to argue.

Current ebay listing for item # 300240863803 is presently at $29,200 with the reserve not yet met! I hope it's not bogus. It really is a beautiful, apparently original (claimed) 920 Gold car- VIN #HLS30-14665. I leave that to all you eagle eyes. Finishing at a bit after 1PM EDT. Not restored, and not a Program car. It would be nice to see more and more of these unmolested cars going for bigger bucks. It does make the barrier to entry higher for nicer cars, but rising waters raise all boats, as they say. It's about time the Z car enters the big time, IMHO. I'm tired of seeing relatively undistinguished Vettes and Mustangs going for $50 grand- no offense to their owners- but those cars are measured in the hundreds of thousands, but with nice examples of Z cars well under $10,000, especially relatively rarer examples, numerically, it's a crying shame. On a related subject, what is the gold standard of valuation for, say, 240Z's? It can't be mainly ebay auctions. There has to be a spreadsheet or table somewhere available where somebody really keeps tabs on values. I'm attaching 4 pics for your enjoyment. Obviously I have a sweet spot in my heart for the 920 Gold cars!

Automaker cultural archeology! Yet another fascinating chapter in the life story of these cars. I have relatives near Portland. They live out in the sticks, playing at being a hippies (does anybody even remember that term? ) , writing and playing music in a 100+ year old barn, and living on caffeine and organic produce, ahem, they grow themselves. And if you'd only add finding and working on classic car barn finds, then it sounds like heaven. It's all about the negative ions in the air during lightning storms.

Wow, thanks Mike. You certainly have a lot of juevos starting that kind of job just before a major road trip. I'm jealous of your hand throttle, and where did you get that carpet from? Fits great. It looks pretty daunting, although I do have pretty good touch with tools so the work itself doesn't scare me. I'll just have to wait for a cool, rainy weekend to do this job. I love working in the garage when it's raining outside, and cool, like from a cold front moving through. I crank the tunes too and get lost in the work. It looks like really a 2-day job, comfortably. I'd be doing almost the exact same scope of work, adding in the gauge light swap, new hoses, and the noise/heat batting work on the firewall and floor, etc.

My Dad taught me this trick when I was a kid. Wrap up a soap-bar sized piece of dry ice in an old towel, twist and hold by resultant handle- fits in every nook and cranny. Hold for 15 seconds and smack with a rawhide mallet while you're holding against the next spot along the line. Very efficient. If whatever coating is too thin though, it is much harder.

Looks fantastic! Clean enough to eat from- the whole underside. If I needed a new exhaust this would definitely be the way I went.

Please mikewags- a couple of pix with your dash off would be most welcome. I'd love to know what I'm getting myself in for, as well as seeing just how much "stuff" is still there attached to the firewall.

I found this recently. Nice, with no ricey overtones. I can't wait until I get some better video of mine accelerating. The PO turned the exhaust tip to the side behind the LR wheel to put it further into the slipstream- having mistaken the gas vent tube fume issue for an exhaust leak. But it sounds SO great coming out a mere 3 feet or so from my ears, that as dopey as it looks, I afraid to touch it for fear of ruining the sound it puts out... which is a real scream, starting around 3,000 rpm. It only has the middle resonator, and no muffler, but is un-noticeable at lower revs. I'll try later this weekend- if I can escape the local gendarmerie camped out on my favorite road. Meanwhile this Rebello stroker sounds fantastic IMO.

I think moritz55 meant "ethanol" instead of "methanol". Unless his Z is a top-fuel dragster. BTW, I also did a great cruise of the Catskill Area a month ago. 500 miles over 2 days. Have you ever been to the Pepacton Reservoir and Route 30? Just magnificent! I posted several videos on my CarDomain page.

I would just LOVE to remove my dash. I'm installing all new sound, heat and vibration matting from the firewall to the tail lights (including removal of all the old horsehair padding) and replacement of all of the stock vinyl trim, and I know it would be an infinitely cleaner install, and much easier with a clear field. Plus I'd love to clean up the rat's nest from the old A/C. But since it's essentially my DD now I couldn't have it out of commission for more than a weekend. A nice long rainy weekend seems like it would be perfect then. And a box of band-aids too. Unless you make a pre-emptive strike and coat your knuckles with NuSkin first. But then WIAI would probably strike. With the dash off, the wiper motor and heater fan should also be looked into. It never ends. Good luck. I'll be following along, and getting my courage up.

What do you all estimate the average time to remove and reinstall a 240 dash would be? Not including healing time for the knuckles. I'm just trying to figure if this is best spread out over a weekend or more.

More action pix please? I never get tired looking at that beautiful silver streak.

They have to be very early 71's, as I have a 2/71 with a serial number of 23788. I only wish they were on the East Coast.

Wow, thanks for that info xray. I have a fair bit of work to go before I'd consider my car as excellent. I have one 3-inch circle of panel rust behind the front wheel- but it's not spread, my seats are currently trashed and need to be rebuilt & recovered, and my dash is capped, but it's such a great cap that not one person has noticed it- and some other car collectors at the Cruise-Ins I visit have even commented on how clean it was too ( ) Beyond that I have 10 small (dime-sized) dents that have to be pressed out, a cracked FRP sugar scoop, and a few small scattered chips that I must get paint-matched and patched, still but beyond that....she's really cool. Maybe I better have another talk with Hagerty after this round of work? $10k is sounding too low. I'm pretty sure that I couldn't sell it for $18 or $20k now- especially in this economy, but to replace it- especially in original paint- appears to be getting much harder. Can these older single-stage finishes even be patched unnoticeably? Luckily I have hundreds of photos, as well as thousands in repair and parts receipts to bolster my case for an increase in agreed value. They certainly seemed open to this- under the right circumstances. I'm very impressed by how responsive they've been, and how well I've been treated so far.

I just signed with Hagerty. They were amazing. When they send me the electronic policy documents, they had some lines already filled in with suggested responses. The most interesting one was in the lines for mileage to be driven. They *started* with 4,000 miles as the amount of driving I was intending to drive over the next year. I informed them that I drive to many, many Cruise-In nights, as well as other car shows in neighboring states, and I might even exceed this. I told them I tend to document everything, including taking tons of photos, and keeping all flyers and other publications from these shows, and they told me it's no big thing, and they hope we enjoy our cars. I also told them that since I perform a great deal of the work on this car myself, of course it's crucial that I take regular test drives to make sure the shifter bushings are installed right, or that the brakes are properly bedded, etc., and that I go to many different parts suppliers all over the state. All true, true, true... Awesome. $170 a year for $10k agreed coverage- to be extended incrementally upon completion of each phase of my restoration. It's probably worth even more than that. How much would it cost to replace a 99% rust-free, early Series 2, original paint, etc., 240Z anyway? It's a very tough thing to track, so any ideas?

Yeah- by being hinged, there's no radiator removal needed. Thinking about selling one? I believe so. Luckily I didn't win that one. Just looked at my rad- no tabs would have match up with that piece! I'll never try to buy anything again without researching it first.

I'm really not sure Mike. I was bidding on one on ebay a week ago- it was hinged though- and missed it- it went for somewhere in the low $80's- and the guy swore in an email that it would fit my 2/71, and would take it back if it didn't fit. I would usually not leave things to "chance" like that. It was attractive in that I didn't have to take the radiator off to install it. Now I'm not so certain.

Another vote for around 20mpg. And the one time I tried 87 my car almost had a coronary! The exhaust pipe started banging against the fender well like a hammer from the knocking. I'm lucky I didn't destroy the car. So I immediately pulled over, added a can of octane boost and filled the tank up with 93 right away. I tried this on a 1/4 tank so I could add more 93 if necessary. Why should a car with 9.0 compression need 93 octane?