HS30-H

Hi Mike, No - just to clarify: I wrote "Do we follow the door jamb tags - where fitted - to the letter?" When I refer to door jamb tags, I am of course only referring to the one market that they were used in: USA / North America. What I'm trying to get at is that these USA / North American market cars are being used to compare with other market cars in questions of actual build date. My point is that the door jamb tags are not necessarily an ACCURATE dating reference. Cheers, Alan T.

Its OK guys, When I'm talking about door jamb tags, I'm only talking about the USA / North American market cars. I understand that they were the only ones to have the door jamb tags with the 'date of manufacture', and that your Australian market cars had compliance plates added in the engine bay. Just to make it clear; Japanese-market and UK-market cars had no 'date of manufacture' tags, or any other way of reliably knowing when the car was actually made. Cheers, Alan T. Edit: Spelling mishtake..

Hold on there a minute Joseph, Just because this car was wearing a few parts that were common in the Japanese market doesn't automatically make it a Japanese market model. A grille is a 'bolt-on', and as for Fender Mirrors - well, some UK-market cars even made it over here with them on. Truth be told, the earliest of the HS30 prefix cars had a very rubbery spec that was somewhat being made up as it went along. In fact, its VERY unlikely that it was an OFFICIAL Japanese-market model "HS30", as Japan did not get the HS30 officially until late in 1971 ( with the debut of the L24-engined 'Fairlady 240Z' models ( Fairlady 240Z, Fairlady 240Z-L & Fairlady 240ZG ). Those cars had VIN number sequences that were shared with the "Export" model HS30's - so none of them were as low as 'HS30-00003' anyway. A number that low WOULD have been made very early in HS30 production ( just before HS30-00004 probably! :classic: ) but I don't think anyone call tell for sure on what EXACT date it was made. I think its dangerous to presume we KNOW what date such low numbers as HS30 #3 & #4 were actually made. Looking at L24 engine numbers and comparing them to those on other cars will not necessarily get us all that much closer to an exact build date for the HS30's. Certainly not to within certain weeks, anyway. Personally, I still don't discount the possibility that one or two ( or even more ) 'HS30' prefixed cars were amongst the very first cars produced during the latter part of 1969. They may not have been product that was intended for sale to the general public, but they very well may have actually existed. The spec on these cars was different to the others, and I get the feeling that Nissan might have been working hard on finalising the spec details, and researching the L24 engine / FS5C71-A trans / 3.9 R180 diff combination that was not seen on other models at that time. Mr C. - I'm very interested to see the firewall stamping on that car. If you ever get near it again, please try and get a good photo of it for me. I'd love to see that. The lowest HS30 number I've seen 'in the metal' was HS30-00013, and that was hanging on the wall of a friend's workshop! :classic: Cheers, Alan T.

Hi Carl, I'll trade you the variable cam timing of later ( very much later ) RB's for the wet cylinder liners and cross-bolted mains of the S20. If you ever get a look inside an S20, or ever need to gather up all the nuts, bolts, studs and shims that hold one together, you'll know what I mean when I say the S20 was more complex internally than the RB. :classic: You're getting your Nissan race car nomenclature mixed up ( or was it a 'plant' to test me? ). The stop-gap fitting of the American V8 was on the R381 ( not the R380-I ) and it was the R381-II that got the V12 'GRX' engine first. I believe the name that's on the tip of your tongue but you can't quite recall was........ Dean Moon. Please Carl, for once in your life, tell me that I am 'right'...... :cheeky:

Hi Carl, The Prince R380 used the "GR8" engine, which was related to the Prince 'G' series OHC engines in spirit if not actual DNA. The Nissan R380 and R380-II used a development of this engine, but with the Nissan name on the cam covers instead of Prince. The GR8 was a pure race engine, with two distributor drives on the ends of the camshafts. The Nissan S20 twin cam engine was a development of the GR8, but was different in a great number of respects. The distributor drive arrangement, oil pump arrangement, block mountings and take-offs were all quite different to the GR8. Essentially it was a completely new engine based on the ideas and experiences of the GR8. Nissan's advertising made much mileage of the link between the GR8 engine of the Prince and Nissan R380 series race cars, and the S20 engine of the first Skyline GT-R. When the Fairlady Z 432 and 432R debuted, Nissan's advertising described it as "A Fairlady Z with the engine of the Skyline GT-R". However, the S20 was quite a different engine to the GR8.......... The RB series came after a big gap. You can see the similarity to the S20 in many respects, but the RB is actually much simpler than the S20 internally. Once you start looking at the way the S20 is put together, you realise just how expensive it must have been to make and assemble each individual engine. Nissan have never really actively encouraged any thought of a DIRECT descendancy from the S20 for the RB series, although the family connection is there. Alan T.

The harder I try to think about this, the harder it is to recall any relevant names! Its just like a quiz. One more for now: NTN - Bearings and seals.

Hi Kats, Great thread! Some to add to your list off the top of my head: TOSHIBA - some lamps & bulbs EVER WING - Mirrors / lamps in some markets MITSUBISHI - Alternators in some markets / other electricals STANLEY - some lamps and bulbs ATSUGI - suspension components ( strut legs etc ) KEW - suspension mountings / engine mounts / some drivetrain pressings / 'moustache' bars etc. Alan T.

Here's a scan of the Nissan R-DRIVE parts book pic of YUASA batteries. I think these were from the "Pafecta" range of YUASA batteries:

Hi 26th-Z, Actually, I don't think I ever thought to mention this to you before: HS30-00026 - along with HS30-00024, HS30-00025 & HS30-00027 -was one of the first Nissan / Datsun "Works" 240Z rally cars. They debuted in their first official team rally on the 1970 RAC Rally here in the UK ( in November 1970 ). HS30-00026 was issued with the Japanese 'carnet' registration plate number "TKS 33 SA 696". The car no longer exists, although its 'identity' still does ( the VIN plate and stamped VIN number are privately held here in the UK )........................ Alan T. ps - here's a pic of TKS 33 SA 696 on the 1971 Welsh Rally:

Hi 26th-Z, Good example of what I meant by a 'philosophical' discussion. I don't necessarily agree about the car not being a car until the inspector slaps that 'OK' sticker on it. In my mind, and in my heart, I envision the car becoming a car somewhere further up the production line. I understand what you mean - as to all intents and purposes the car was not finished, or fit for sale to the general public until Nissan said it was, but even a faulty / rejected car, or one that accidentally got damaged on the production line was still a car with a positive identity. I suppose that I might actually be inferring that an 'identity' of a car ( through its stamped firewall VIN prefix and chassis number combination ) exists as soon as its punched into the metal. I might be influenced by experiences with old race cars, which can certainly be a can of worms, and an area where one always has to expect some skulduggery and intrigue! Actually, this part of the discussion about when an identity is taken on reminds me of some parts of the very sad abortion debates one reads about........... As mentioned elsewhere many times, NOT all markets - and therefore not all cars - had an officially-applied DATE OF MANUFACTURE stamp on them. Japanese-market cars certainly did not, and UK-market cars certainly did not. Australian cars had their door jamb tags applied in Australia ( as far as I am aware ) and this would lead me to suspect that the data applied to them would be easily 'tweaked' to fit in with any agenda the importer might have had ( import quota / tax / model years issues? ). I also believe that the door jamb tags of the USA-market cars were possibly applied somewhat arbitrarily, and not even at the Factory ( I was once told they were applied at Honmoku ). I certainly don't trust them, for the reasons I gave on my first post in this thread. Yes 26th-Z, there would have been an HS30-00026 ( probably went to Australia ) and a PS30-00026, and don't forget poor old S30-00026 too! However, none of these cars would have been "manufacture date" stamped in Japan. In the case of HS30-00026, if it went to Australia I believe it would have been fitted with its door-jamb tag in Australia, or at least just before it went to Australia, and NOT on the production line. Its only possible to get near to the actual production date on non-US cars by cross-referencing the manufacture date of COMPONENTS - which, as we can see, can be slightly confusing and not entirely scientific. Alan T.

A couple of days ago, this thread was started: HS30 #160 for sale It fairly rapidly turned from a "For Sale" ad into a discussion about the earliest HS30 build dates. I wondered if anyone might be interested in pursuing this further without spoiling the original for sale ad? Thanks for starting a new thread Zedrally:classic: To be honest, we have had such a lot of concentrated discussion about this in the past ( see the Build Dates thread, which 2ManyZs linked to above ) that its possible most people will not be very motivated to give their thoughts on the subject. However, I think there are connected areas of this subject that we have not really covered...... Carchaeology is one thing ( and we love that ) but philosophy is quite another. I think many of us will have different opinions, but isn't it worth trying to get a discussion going about the following?: *When does a 'car' actually become a car? I'm thinking about the production line for the S30-series Z cars, and wondering at exactly WHAT point in the production process we can allocate a particular car its 'identity'. Is it when the full VIN number is stamped on a bodyshell? Is it when the car reaches a certain stage of completion on the line? Or is it when the car reaches the 'end' of the production line ( or after it passes its quality control check and gets its "OK" sticker? ). *When we talk about 'Pre-Production' cars, or the first cars that were put through on the Z production line, how do we decide on the identity - or lack of - for these particular cars? If they do not have full chassis / VIN number stamps, can we include them in 'Production' numbers or not? What if "HLS30-#1" or "S30-#1" never actually got stamped with any numbers? What if they DID, but were broken up / disassembled for research and development purposes at the Factory? Do they count in the production figures? What about cars ( like the two North American 'test' cars ) that had different details from what we might call 'final' production spec? Do we include them? What about crash test cars etc? *How are we identifying the actual build dates of certain cars? I'm thinking in particular of cars built right at the beginning, or right at the end of the month, or year. As far as I am aware, we can't identify the ACTUAL day of production for a particular car - so how are we able to allocate it a month of production, and therefore it follows in the case of January and December cars - an accurate year? Do we follow the door jamb tags - where fitted - to the letter? I don't think we should really as it seems clear that they were attached after production, but what else is there to go on? Do we look at componentry manufacture dates, come up with an average and then decide through probability? *Lastly, do ONLY production models - released by a company for sale to the General Public - count when it comes to deciding 'production' of a type of car? I'm thinking of ALL of the first generation S30-series Z types here. Where do we draw the line? Do we have to follow the stamped VIN / Chassis Identification number to the letter? What if there were gaps in the numbers? What about the grey area between full production cars and prototype / production test / production research / assembly test cars etc? You can see why I was calling this a 'philosophical' discussion. :classic: Alan T.

Er, thanks Mike! ( Alan T shields his eyes from the array of spotlights on Zedrally's car ) :classic:

Kats, Maybe this has something to do with the viewpoint of the owners who want to take their cars to the Convention? I have an alternative suggestion. Maybe some American ( LHD ) owners should take their cars over to Japan for a show in the country where the Z was designed and made...... :classic: :tapemouth

Hi Kats, The part number for the 432 and 432R is different because they used the "R192" diff. The bar was a different shape, and a different thickness from others. Cheers, Alan T.

I have sore elbows........... I was interested to note ( once again ) a bit of Porsche-bashing on this site. Almost an IZCC mailing-list flashback Has nobody here got any respect for Porsche's pedigree and competition history? Have you ever driven one? Don't let the 'image' - or your perception of it - get in the way. Difficult to think of a 'competitor' for the first-generation Z amongst ordinary road cars available to the general public. Each specific market would be different in that respect I should imagine. What exactly WAS the first-generation Z car anyway? I don't think of it as a classic 'Sportscar' or a true "GT" either. Was it a new species? Contemporary road tests here in the UK stuck the Z up against, amongst others, the Lotus Elan +2S 130, Reliant Scimitar GTE, Triumph Stag, Volvo 1800ES, Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and Ford Capri RS3100. The Z very rarely, if ever, came out on top in the comparisons. Anti-Japanese bias? Hmmmmm........... As far as racing goes, the major nemesis of the Z were / are the rules and regulations that it had to comply with in the local area where it was being raced. In many cases, these did not allow the Z to use equipment / specs that were homologated and available in the home market, but illegal to use because the local importer did not see fit to make them available. Despite this, the Z still did well. I believe almost any car with comparable power / size / weight to the Z can be 'improved' / tuned to stay with a sorted Z on the track. I've seen bloody Triumph TR4's and Spitfire GT6's show supposedly 'sorted' Z's around race tracks and certainly a properly prepped / driven early 911 will always give a similarly sorted / driven Z a hard time on the track. Any talk of domination or outclassing opponents - all things considered - is probably down to driver skill and capable mechanics maximising the potential of the car. I watched a lardy-arsed MK.2 Jaguar saloon circulating Goodwood circuit last weekend, and I swear it would stomp all over most of the 'sorted' Z cars that ever use that track! The driver was standing that thing on its ear............... In the Z's early days of circuit racing in Japan it had virtually nothing to compete against in the same class. The Z was usually in a GTII class racing for class honours against its own kind, and for overall honours with 'pure' sports-racing cars and prototypes. At the end of its Japanese circuit race career in the Grand Champion series, it was given a very hard time by the Mazda RX3.

Explanation 2:

Explanation 1:

Here are additional scans from the second R-DRIVE parts book, which also covers the RS30 and GRS30 models:

Hi Michael, Yes - the scans were from the "R-DRIVE" Nissan parts book that covered the period up to March 1973 by using additional update pages. That particular book says that it covers all "HS30" models - with special notes on UK and Australian market applications. It also notes some applications and options as "Europe" and "Ex. Europe" ( meaning excluding Europe ) - but I would have thought this would indicate the European version of the HLS30, so I'm not entirely sure about those models......... However, it does NOT cover the Japanese market models at all. Cheers, Alan T.

And here's the explanation of the applications of those colours:

I'm hoping that this scan from the Nissan "R-DRIVE" parts lists for the RHD export market cars will be of use to you:

Hi mperdue, Hats off to you for taking the trouble to do this, and I'm heartened to read that you are interested in the colours for the non-US market cars also. You mentioned the colours of the Fairlady 240ZG ( HS30-H ) model, and this came in a choice of three colours. Only one of these colours was initially unique to the ZG: *116 Grand Prix Maroon ( Unique to ZG from Oct.'71 to late 1972 ) *904 Grand Prix White *110 Grand Prix Red From October 1972, the 116 Grand Prix Maroon became an optional colour on all the Japanese market models, and was no longer unique to the ZG. 116 is in fact a pretty classic chocolate brown colour, and not maroon at all. Apparently, it was originally called "Marron" ( French for Chestnut ) and was the victim of a classic Japanese typo.......... Alan T.

Yes, excellent description / explanation from Panchovisa. That's exactly what I was told about them; they are leftovers from the block casting process and breaking / damaging one of them is not a major problem. They certainly are not oil-carrying pipes or extra coolant passages, or anything like that. However, just as Panchovisa said, you don't want any broken pieces left in the block as they might find their way back to the water pump and damage the impeller. Great post, Panchovisa! Cheers, Alan T.

Another ( N42 block ):