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wide ratio FS5W71B slipping out of 3rd & 4th


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Yes, without a reverse lock out port to poke a 1/4 socket extension and air hammer into, that thing is a witch to remove. I built a crazy complex U shaped thing to push them out, worked ”ok” but tough to get all the angles right. Dang wedge pins can be very tight. Drilling an access hole then NPT plugging it after would be my goto solution, but not everyone is comfortable doing that.

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13 hours ago, Zed Head said:

I wonder if somebody could build a U-shaped device that you could slip over a nut on the threaded end of the shaft.  Then you could turn the nut against the inside of the U-shape to push the lock bolt out.

I was thinking the same thing. When I regain access to the maker space I'm going to see if I can make one. I like a challenge, owning a vintage Z, that should be obvious. 

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Posted (edited)

zKars...

I drilled a hole in one of my donner transmissions and was able to get the pin out of that one with a few hammer blows against a drift pin. I did that to get a better look at what I'm up against. I picked up an electrical conduit hanger at Lowes and I'm trying to come up with a tool to push out the pin by reshaping the hanger. Not much luck yet. As I said earlier, it's a very tight space.

PXL_20210331_172729364.jpg

Edited by Jeff Berk
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Does your gearbox not have a reverse check sleeve? I did this last night, you can extend the striker rod which allows you to support it with some wood jenga blocks, then use a not-a-punch and a sledge hammer to beat on the dowel with a sacrificial nut on the end of it.

 

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_5cbd.jpg

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_5cbf.jpg

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_5cbc.jpg

Edited by heyitsrama
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41 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

I spy something... Old Honda maybe?    LOL

Got to get those gauges installed, maybe can get some time to tune this weekend... I'm waiting on parts in my gearbox thread anyway. 😆

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Posted (edited)

It's me again. I solved the issue with the wedge pin stuck in the striker, I took zKars' suggestion and drilled a hole in the side of the transmission so I could tap it out. I then taped the hole for 1/2-inch 13 threads and bought a short bolt. I figure with thread sealer and an O-ring, I should be able to seal it well enough.

Dropping the transmission into the case has been a problem. I think I have it all together properly (see photos on google drive). I installed the shifter, bell housing, and tried dropping the tail in place. I tried different shifter positions, twisting the tail a little to the left when installing and when it all falls into place, the shifter seems to be stuck. I'm assuming the striker is not going where it's supposed to go.

The transmission case and shifter are out of a wide ratio while the shift forks and and rods are out of a close ratio. Most of the hardware in front of the adaptor plate are from a 4-speed. Should I try the tail end from the close ratio?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1x7dBQ_c1fBdDtWOt89JVneSfF5rc69jQ?usp=sharing

Edited by Jeff Berk
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You need to put it in one gear before putting the front case on to the adapter plate.  Otherwise the case will push both shift rods as the rods slide through the holes and it ends up in two gears at the same time.  Common problem.  Pick a gear that already has one of the rods pushed backward in the adapter plate, then the detents won't allow the other to move.

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Posted (edited)

Just so I understand, I need to put the transmission in gear (example 1st gear) by pushing the fork rod, 

then drop the adapter plate into the front case/bell housing while making sure the fork rods haven't moved,

then put the transmission tail on with the shifter set to 1st gear?

Edited by Jeff Berk
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Just to be sure, you said you can't move the shift lever.  Did you try rotating the input or output shaft?  If it's in two gears at the same time the shafts won't move either.  Everything gets locked up.

So I'd use the "one gear" method to put the front case on, then rotate the shafts to make sure everything's okay.  Then put the tail shaft housing on.

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I inserted an endoscope into the hole I drilled and realized that the striker was just short of engaging. I switch to another striker and this time it engaged and I was able to go through the gears. I could see the ends of the fork rods in the bell housing moving in and out as I shifted through the gears and the input shaft turned freely. Unfortunately, I need to disassemble the case since I didn't apply RTV to the adaptor plate yet but If it work once, it should work again. I've attached a photo from the endoscope showing the non-engaged striker. I knew that endoscope would come in handy some day. Sorry for the poor resolution.

 

WIN_20210403_18_30_07_Pro.jpg

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I've got up the nerve to install the transmission, that and my wife wants her half of the garage back so I had to move the transmission out of the way. I was just about to start the install when I tried to give the input shaft a spin and it wouldn't budge. I checked and I was in neutral so I started back tracking and pulled the front cover off and it moved freely again. I checked to make sure the spacer was in the counter shaft well and I reseated the main shaft seal so it was properly seated and tried again. As soon as I started to torque the bolts to about 13 ft/lb, the input shaft seized up again. I tried another front cover and had the same results. 

I noticed that both bearings seems to protrude above the transmission case, 0.21 and 0.17 inch for the main and counter shaft bearings, respectively. Should the countershaft bearing be recessed and a shim added to bring it flush? The input shaft bearing cannot move back any further that it is now because it needs to have a retaining ring installed. I removed the bellhousing and checked the bearing and it seems to be up against the countershaft drive gear. There is a C clip between the countershaft bearing and drive gear, but it is up against the drive gear so it should not be holding the countershaft bearing from where it should be.IMG_2305.JPG

Anyone have any ideas?

Jeff 

IMG_2306.JPG

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The countershaft bearing actually requires a shim to get proper preload once the cover is installed.

I remember that the countershaft bearing was tight against the gear on mine when I removed it.  I had to fabricate a sort of bearing splitter to get under the edge it was too close to get puller jaws in.  Yours looks like it has lots of space, like the countershaft bearing is not fully seated.

image.png

Mine was right up against the gear.  The inner race should be driven all the way down to a seat area, I believe.  Edit - you can see the inner race seat in the illustration above.

image.png

 

Edited by Zed Head
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Posted (edited)

I cannot move it any further in on the counter shaft. That gap you pointed out is a step on the shaft. Maybe I need to force the entire counter shaft in a few tenths of an inch?

 

IMG_2307.JPG

Edited by Jeff Berk
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3 hours ago, Jeff Berk said:

As soon as I started to torque the bolts to about 13 ft/lb, the input shaft seized up again. I tried another front cover and had the same results. 

Can you see or feel a gap under the front cover before you try to torque the bolts?  Are you using a gasket?

image.png

 

For any future lurkers, I found the part about sealing the "withdrawal" lever (pivot) ball pin threads.  Didn't know it was in there.  Not your issue, just adding...

image.png

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Posted (edited)

I'm not feeling a gap under the cover. I'm using a paper gasket without sealer.

After disassembly again, and bumping the counter shaft in with a dead blow hammer, I got the following measurements of the protrusion of the bearings beyond the casting surface:

Before hammering the difference between the protrusion of the main and countershaft bearings was 0.04 inches

After hammering the difference between the protrusion of the main and countershaft bearings was 0.13 inches

This extra 0.09 inches seemed to have helped although I'm feeling some resistance when I turn the input shaft by hand. I'm assuming I must use a countershaft shim. Is that correct?

Should I use a fresh gasket maybe of thicker material to compensate for compression?

Edited by Jeff Berk
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I'm not an expert.  And not really sure where your problem is.  I remember measuring several front covers and transmissions, from 76 to 83, and finding that they all needed a 0.3mm shim, so there was not a lot of variation over the years.  But the table shows that if A is big then you can go without a shim.

I also remember realizing that the gasket must be involved in the measurement since it adds to the depth of the bearing pocket.

In your case, for what you're doing and working with, I'd leave the shim out and use a thicker gasket until you get free shaft movement.  Just to see if you can, and if that is the problem.  

image.png

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Here's a thought though - put some modeling clay or thin gasket material or grease across the full width of the bearing pocket.  See if the shaft end itself is interfering with the front cover.  The ball bearings in the races have quite a bit of lateral movement and are designed to take a load.  It's sounding more like the end of the shaft is getting jammed in to the cover.

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On 4/9/2021 at 10:08 PM, Jeff Berk said:

I've got up the nerve to install the transmission, that and my wife wants her half of the garage back so I had to move the transmission out of the way. I was just about to start the install when I tried to give the input shaft a spin and it wouldn't budge. I checked and I was in neutral so I started back tracking and pulled the front cover off and it moved freely again. I checked to make sure the spacer was in the counter shaft well and I reseated the main shaft seal so it was properly seated and tried again. As soon as I started to torque the bolts to about 13 ft/lb, the input shaft seized up again. I tried another front cover and had the same results. 

I noticed that both bearings seems to protrude above the transmission case, 0.21 and 0.17 inch for the main and counter shaft bearings, respectively. Should the countershaft bearing be recessed and a shim added to bring it flush? The input shaft bearing cannot move back any further that it is now because it needs to have a retaining ring installed. I removed the bellhousing and checked the bearing and it seems to be up against the countershaft drive gear. There is a C clip between the countershaft bearing and drive gear, but it is up against the drive gear so it should not be holding the countershaft bearing from where it should be.IMG_2305.JPG

Anyone have any ideas?

Jeff 

 

Looking at your photo. I see a Circlip between the input shaft bearing and gear. I shouldn't be there. It should be on the outside of the bearing. Gear - Bearing - Spacer ring - circlip. See exploded view pos#1.

Screenshot_20210410-102613.jpg

The circlip between gear and bearing will push the bearing out too far and the bearing cover will then push on the outer circlip and the input shaft will bind up on the main shaft. The input shaft is held in position by the circlip on the outside of the input shaft bearing. It has absolutly no pre load and without the circlip, you can push it into the gearbox a mm or so. Check this before you fit the bearing cover. This is important otherwise the input shaft will bind on the main shaft and the metal filings will damage the needle bearing and the synchro on 4th.

The bearing on the counter shaft should be up against the cluster gear shoulder (the circlip holding the gear in place is a little further along the shoulder) and the bearing should protrude just passed the circlip groove on the input shaft bearing. See input and cluster shafts photo.

Screenshot_20210410-103650.jpg

Follow the steps Zed Head posted the determine the shims needed. The bearings don't require preload. That will destroy the counter shaft bearing in the adapter plate, but too much end play will create slack and clunking as the counter shaft moves back and forth from engine load to no load.

Take your time to get it right. If you are new to these transmissions the FS5W71B manual is not your best friend. If in doubt keep firing questions at us.

Exploded view 280z fs5w71b.png

Input and cluster shafts.jpg

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EuroDat,

I think you spotted the problem. I took a few measurements and couldn't see how the countershaft would NOT fit so I was wondering about the input shaft. Nissan must of put the kerf in the input shaft where they did just to see what fool they could fool. 

Thanks all for your help.

Jeff 

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

I installed the transmission and give it a try. I'm getting a bit of whine; however when I let the clutch out, even in neutral. For some reason, no whine in 4th gear but it reappears in 5th. I checked the fluid level and it is up to the fill hole. Gears 1-4 are out of a 4-speed transmission.

I might of put the wrong throw-out bearing (I had 2 different ones sitting out) in since the noise is only present when the clutch is out. Any suggestions? The attached video has the whine. 

Edited by Jeff Berk
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I think it's a countershaft issue.  4th gear is direct through the main shaft.  Not sure what exactly it might be or what to do about it.

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Good point on the countershaft. I didn't know 4th was a direct drive.

If it's an issue with one of the three countershaft bearings, is there a way to test them? They were all replaced so they should be fine but I installed and removed parts so often to fix errors, maybe I damaged one. Other than that should I check to see if gears are not properly matching? 

One issue I had with the countershaft was that I was unable to remove the countershaft drive gear.  This required that I remove both the main and countershaft at the same time. After its removal, I tried a gear puller and an ultrasonic cleaner, but it wouldn't budge. I wonder if I moved the drive gear outward a little on the countershaft.

There is a potential that I mixed up a couple of gears between the 3 transmissions I had open although I tried to keep them separate. The tooth count on the shafts are as follows from front to back:

Main shaft

22, 28, 28, 33, [adapter plate],  36, and 19

Countershaft

29, 27, 19, 14, [adapter plate], 23, and 31

 

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Zed Head

I just found this in my search:

It agrees with your thoughts on the root cause of the noise. I have to admit that I dropped the transmission onto a rubber mat when I was trying to fit it into my vice. If it landed on the countershaft, that could of damaged the bearing. 

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Those guys from 2003 seem pretty cool.  The rear countershaft bearing would be the one in the adapter plate.  

Just looking at the picture of the gears you can see so many spots where that high frequency buzz could happen.  Gear teeth touching slightly maybe.  Gears slightly out of alignment.  It doesn't sound like a tooth count problem, that would be a major problem.

The fact that it happens when the countershaft is loaded suggests that the helical cuts of the gears are pushing two parts together, or one of the shafts is loose and being pushed away from the other.  So something is slightly misaligned, or loose.  When the countershaft isn't loaded the gears are just along for the ride.  No noise then suggests they are moving just fine, it's the load that makes the difference.

It's a bummer.  I'd drop the oil and see if metal flakes show damage happening.  It will give you a clue at least.

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