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Joseph@TheZStore

KONI Sports for Classic Z's

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Hello @fyrst.z, like Zed said, the gland nuts definitely are specific to the struts, and you should use the Koni gland nuts. If you have one side of the front that threads and the other side that doesn't, that definitely could be, also as Zed said, decades of dirt and oil that create a "spacer" down there, so check that as well. The only other options would be non-matching strut cartridge heights, which will be fairly easy to check, or damaged/modified/mismatching strut housings. Struts, whether Tokico, KYB, Koni, are different heights, and they all have different gland nuts to go with them. You show an image of a strut installed with what looks like a KYB gland nut, we assume you are not using those gland nuts on the Koni's.

When you're certain there isn't a buildup to scrape out of the bottom of the housing tubes (it isn't easy, unfortunately), and if then using the Koni gland nuts you are not able to torque them down to a 4mm gap, regardless of side, just give our sales technicians a call at (800)633-6331 or (714)639-2620, or email if you prefer at info@motorsportauto.com, and we'll get things figured out.

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3 hours ago, Joseph@TheZStore said:

Hello @fyrst.z, like Zed said, the gland nuts definitely are specific to the struts, and you should use the Koni gland nuts. If you have one side of the front that threads and the other side that doesn't, that definitely could be, also as Zed said, decades of dirt and oil that create a "spacer" down there, so check that as well. The only other options would be non-matching strut cartridge heights, which will be fairly easy to check, or damaged/modified/mismatching strut housings. Struts, whether Tokico, KYB, Koni, are different heights, and they all have different gland nuts to go with them. You show an image of a strut installed with what looks like a KYB gland nut, we assume you are not using those gland nuts on the Koni's.

When you're certain there isn't a buildup to scrape out of the bottom of the housing tubes (it isn't easy, unfortunately), and if then using the Koni gland nuts you are not able to torque them down to a 4mm gap, regardless of side, just give our sales technicians a call at (800)633-6331 or (714)639-2620, or email if you prefer at info@motorsportauto.com, and we'll get things figured out.

Thanks @Joseph@TheZStore and @KONI Lee. Your comments helped me a lot. I've cleaned the bottom of the strut housing (using a rag and long screw driver) and more importantly realized that I was trying to put the old strut gland nut back on rather than using the one that was supplied with the Koni's. Should have known better but should be golden now!

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37 minutes ago, fyrst.z said:

Thanks @Joseph@TheZStore and @KONI Lee. Your comments helped me a lot. I've cleaned the bottom of the strut housing (using a rag and long screw driver) and more importantly realized that I was trying to put the old strut gland nut back on rather than using the one that was supplied with the Koni's. Should have known better but should be golden now!

Hopefully that takes care of it, just make sure that when you torque them down, there is a 4mm or smaller gap between the housing top and under the gland nut flange. If anything doesn't seem right, just contact us directly. Thanks!

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A very big thanks for outstanding customer service from MSA and KONI! Like a few others, I could not get the gland nut to adequately thread into place because the shock was not seating properly. My struts are squeaky clean inside with no foreign debris. As recommended above, I contacted MSA about the issue. @Joseph@TheZStore quickly responded and identified a Nissan mfg. anomaly where the bottom cap on the strut has an internal shoulder. Chipped paint on the bottom of the new KONI shock confirmed the interference. MSA had modified gland nuts on hand for this problem and sent a pair to me at no cost. Note the machined internal relief shoulder on the gland nut on the right vs. stock on the left. The relief allowed the gland nut threads to fully engage and get the gap well under 4mm.  One front strut down this morning, one to go for tomorrow and then on to the rears.

Jim

100_4025.JPG

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Can you get a picture of the shoulder, just for fun?  I assume that it is visible.

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After I swabbed out the oil I could see the shoulder with a flashlight and feel it with a long tool. No fiber optic tool so no pics. Now its all back together and on to the other side. Might or might not find the same situation.

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To add to the body of knowledge here, just ran my Z for the first time in 4 months after putting it back together again with these Konis.

 

Having gone from the Tokico blues of the PO to these, I am truly stunned at how well the car is damped and how well it corners now. I’m currently on 2 full turns of the adjusters and find the damping to be wonderful without shaking out my fillings (I am on lowered eurospec springs). I think I will tick back to 1.75 turns though to get a little more comfort for longer journeys than my usual local blasts of the twisties.

 

The first set arrived damaged but with a couple of photos and emails, MSA priority mailed me a new set without delay. Love those guys even more now.

 

As an occasional track dayer and furious fast roader on bumpy twisty British B roads , I can’t recommend these shocks highly enough. They have truly transformed my Z! I also get way better traction at T junctions now with no wheel spin unless I really goad it.

 

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Ordered mine !

 

You won’t be disappointed! Just a heads up on the locknut that comes with them, while installing mine, I decided to undo one side to have a second look and on the way up, it started to get stiffer and stiffer until it welded itself on!!! I had to grind off a part of it on the flat side of the damper shaft with a dremel and chisel it off!!!

 

Being a stainless steel nyloc nut, it produces a lot of heat if turned quickly as I did (by hand) and produces some galvanic reaction of sorts. Moral of the story? Go slow or ditch the lock nuts for something better.

 

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The other thing i found was that the adjuster couldn’t get deep enough through the holes in my rear strut towers, so I had to “improve” on the Koni design with a hacksaw ;). I halved the height of the “gripping bit” and it fits perfectly now.

 

dcade25142aa15d36225800133049365.plist&key=209543f17ca7b880c9e6dc435e97629c112cedbe3e58f77fc8da52d811bd89f9

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On 8/31/2020 at 6:21 PM, AK260 said:

 

You won’t be disappointed! Just a heads up on the locknut that comes with them, while installing mine, I decided to undo one side to have a second look and on the way up, it started to get stiffer and stiffer until it welded itself on!!! I had to grind off a part of it on the flat side of the damper shaft with a dremel and chisel it off!!!

 

Being a stainless steel nyloc nut, it produces a lot of heat if turned quickly as I did (by hand) and produces some galvanic reaction of sorts. Moral of the story? Go slow or ditch the lock nuts for something better.

 

fa44af68e81de4a9a5410e98d57898c6.jpg&key=319d5c9e98a05281485bc99dbc6ef15c76649517067cc32e6c9d806c08c97df6

 

The other thing i found was that the adjuster couldn’t get deep enough through the holes in my rear strut towers, so I had to “improve” on the Koni design with a hacksaw ;). I halved the height of the “gripping bit” and it fits perfectly now.

 

dcade25142aa15d36225800133049365.plist&key=209543f17ca7b880c9e6dc435e97629c112cedbe3e58f77fc8da52d811bd89f9

You say it wouldn’t get deep enough ? To fit under the strut tower cap ? 

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No, he's saying it "bottomed out" on the metal at the top of the strut tower and wouldn't reach down deep enough into the hole to get onto the adjustment spinny.

He had to "lengthen" the tool to reach deeper into the hole by removing some of the finger grip knob portion from the underside. I don't think he was ever intending to leave it under the plastic cap, it was completely unusable as originally designed. Couldn't adjust the strut at all.

Of course, I'm trying to translate for someone else....... @AK260   LOL 

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On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2020 at 6:21 PM, AK260 said:

Just a heads up on the locknut that comes with them, while installing mine, I decided to undo one side to have a second look and on the way up, it started to get stiffer and stiffer until it welded itself on!!! I had to grind off a part of it on the flat side of the damper shaft with a dremel and chisel it off!!!

Being a stainless steel nyloc nut, it produces a lot of heat if turned quickly as I did (by hand) and produces some galvanic reaction of sorts. Moral of the story? Go slow or ditch the lock nuts for something better.

Stainless Ny-locs are a dangerous thing, especially if you aren't aware of the issues. Stainless is prone to galling and that's exactly what happened to you.\

If they ran a stainless nyloc onto a stainless shaft, they were asking... No, wait...  BEGGING for trouble.

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God I love [mention]Captain Obvious[/mention]!!!! He totally understands me! If he was a woman, I .....

 

Aaaand in the blue corner, on my other shoulder in a super deep British accent: “Ahem! Steady on old chap”!!!

 

Exactly what he said, better than I did. I’m going to a write to Koni to give them feedback and let’s see if they act on it.

 

There is a little too much play in the adjuster knob for my liking so at some point I will make my own on a lathe with a much tighter fit and include degree marks. Am I obsessing too much? Or is it too much to ask that a quality product should have this resolved from the outset?

 

The “galling” cost me 5 hours for a 5 min job!!!!!! So it’s really worth heeding the warning. Had to go really carefully with the dremel to avoid creating too much heat; regularly cooling it gently and avoiding potential damage to any seals. Also once the shaft and nut are in the strut hat / cap thing, there is diddly squat room to get anything in there.

 

This is what I call the strut cap / hat thing - which I had buy another of and take back to bare metal / de-rust / treat and paint with chassis paint!

 

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I tried to recover the threads with a thread file, but to no avail as zooming in showed me how the galling had eaten away some of the thread. A fat 5mm washer was employed to use the undamaged threads above it. Not ideal, but it worked well.

 

a0bea2a4e55673886605f683e79e4c48.jpg&key=d398b4e4d29c724a01d3750ee1319eaa9d872c016465271948fe2a2ac7767cd5

 

350654eda3e6858f94bc0f5929903ca9.jpg&key=9bbf24ab739763300c9cc31cef777c7f44bfd748a5e6f9b883753bbf77b38157

 

On the topic of the adjustments, I was out test “thrashing” the car at the weekend and the handling is now just sublime!!!! On 1.75 turns with what I believe are 2.18kg/mm euro spec springs (same ones as used before the Koni upgrade) and stock 195/70/14 Bridgestone Turanza T005 tyres, the limit of adhesion is way beyond where it was, often outgunning the hot hatches on the twisties. The ride quality is on par with my old S2000 - the bumps that would shake the car previously are just beautifully absorbed and dispatched without drama.

 

And lastly, on the adjustment topic, not all my shocks have a full two turns available. Being a nerd, i would say two of them are between 20-30 degrees short of 720 degrees. So for adjustments to be equal, rightly or wrongly, I made an assumption that at full turns the valve is at it’s max closed position, therefore I work back 180 degrees from there.

 

As an experiment, they are currently set to 90 degrees back from max and still, the ride quality is excellent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, AK260 said:

God I love [mention]Captain Obvious[/mention]!!!! He totally understands me! If he was a woman, I .....

 

Aaaand in the blue corner, on my other shoulder in a super deep British accent: “Ahem! Steady on old chap”!!!

 

Exactly what he said, better than I did. emoji106.pngemoji106.pngemoji106.pngI’m going to a write to Koni to give them feedback and let’s see if they act on it.

 

There is a little too much play in the adjuster knob for my liking so at some point I will make my own on a lathe with a much tighter fit and include degree marks. Am I obsessing too much? Or is it too much to ask that a quality product should have this resolved from the outset?

 

The “galling” cost me 5 hours for a 5 min job!!!!!! So it’s really worth heeding the warning. Had to go really carefully with the dremel to avoid creating too much heat; regularly cooling it gently and avoiding potential damage to any seals. Also once the shaft and nut are in the strut hat / cap thing, there is diddly squat room to get anything in there.

 

This is what I call the strut cap / hat thing - which I had buy another of and take back to bare metal / de-rust / treat and paint with chassis paint!

 

a8d1cdafb3089d55def2356ed52f336a.jpg&key=a9159031c371c4784c331031d54855f85080058128c9eb8d2c40d9037307a530

 

I tried to recover the threads with a thread file, but to no avail as zooming in showed me how the galling had eaten away some of the thread. A fat 5mm washer was employed to use the undamaged threads above it. Not ideal, but it worked well.

 

a0bea2a4e55673886605f683e79e4c48.jpg&key=d398b4e4d29c724a01d3750ee1319eaa9d872c016465271948fe2a2ac7767cd5

 

350654eda3e6858f94bc0f5929903ca9.jpg&key=9bbf24ab739763300c9cc31cef777c7f44bfd748a5e6f9b883753bbf77b38157

 

On the topic of the adjustments, I was out test “thrashing” the car at the weekend and the handling is now just sublime!!!! On 1.75 turns with what I believe are 2.18kg/mm euro spec springs (same ones as used before the Koni upgrade) and stock 195/70/14 Bridgestone Turanza T005 tyres, the limit of adhesion is way beyond where it was, often outgunning the hot hatches on the twisties. The ride quality is on par with my old S2000 - the bumps that would shake the car previously are just beautifully absorbed and dispatched without drama.

 

And lastly, on the adjustment topic, not all my shocks have a full two turns available. Being a nerd, i would say two of them are between 20-30 degrees short of 720 degrees. So for adjustments to be equal, rightly or wrongly, I made an assumption that at full turns the valve is at it’s max closed position, therefore I work back 180 degrees from there.

 

As an experiment, they are currently set to 90 degrees back from max and still, the ride quality is excellent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would have been besides myself -pissed if I had to do that with a brand new set up (lock nut) . I will take your advise seriously . I wonder if my old KYB nylon lock nuts will work? I hope you do give them some feedback . That shouldn’t have been overlooked . Makes me wonder if they actually have a test vehicle to mock this stuff up on . I’d be happy with a T handle that fit the slot . Since there is two full turns of adjustment , having marks on a dial is kind of worthless. Kind of like a carb mixture screw - can’t remember how many turns out , so you dial it in while counting and dial it back out . 

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3 hours ago, AK260 said:

God I love [mention]Captain Obvious[/mention]!!!! He totally understands me! If he was a woman, I .....

 

Aaaand in the blue corner, on my other shoulder in a super deep British accent: “Ahem! Steady on old chap”!!!

LMAO !!!   ???

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I would have been besides myself -pissed if I had to do that with a brand new set up (lock nut) . I will take your advise seriously . I wonder if my old KYB nylon lock nuts will work? I hope you do give them some feedback . That shouldn’t have been overlooked . Makes me wonder if they actually have a test vehicle to mock this stuff up on . I’d be happy with a T handle that fit the slot . Since there is two full turns of adjustment , having marks on a dial is kind of worthless. Kind of like a carb mixture screw - can’t remember how many turns out , so you dial it in while counting and dial it back out . 

 

You’re not kidding! My language was definitely not family friendly and I had to walk away from it for a day or two. The thread is metric fine, so beware you don’t end up forcing metric coarse threads onto it.

 

This is what I used in the end which is consequently the same size as the ones on the compression rods, moustache bar, diff insulator’s long bolts etc. They were also on my previous shock absorbers.

 

https://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/14-1274

 

Letter to Koni will certainly be done complete with photos.

 

They developed them in conjunction with MSA / Zstore so I would imagine they did use a test vehicle or two but I guess you can’t test every scenario of how the consumer goes about fitting them. I was using a non ratcheted socket handle and turning it quicker (and without regular stops) than you would if you were ratcheting it, so maybe that’s why they hadn’t seen this issue previously.

 

 

As for the dial, I was only going to put on a giant + sign for 90degree adjustment steps - 8 settings is plenty enough. But I do want a less floppy fit as I will be constantly playing with them when going tracking again one day. I agree on the carb comment - THE ONLY way I have succeeded in accurately setting up carbs is taking the domes off and using digital callipers.

 

Good luck and let us know how you get on. I’m certain yours will go smoothly.

 

Oh BTW, I made my own gland nut removal tool for the price of a spare bracket, some drilling and a couple of 8.8 bolts - in the pic below the second one is hidden behind the shock rod. The big bolt was purely to give me a point for a socket to attach to but in the end a few taps with a 2.5lb hammer worked way better.

 

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LMAO !!!   

 

Glad to be of service. ;)

 

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5 hours ago, AK260 said:

He totally understands me! If he was a woman, I .....

LOL. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that......   ROFL

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5 hours ago, AK260 said:

350654eda3e6858f94bc0f5929903ca9.jpg&key=9bbf24ab739763300c9cc31cef777c7f44bfd748a5e6f9b883753bbf77b38157

 

Yup. That's typical galling. Here's some links that talk about such things. Some of these even specifically call out stainless nyloc nuts:
https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Materials-and-Grades/Thread-galling.aspx
https://www.anzor.com.au/blog/what-is-stainless-galling
https://www.westfieldfasteners.co.uk/Ref_Thread_Galling.html

The bottom line is usually... Use lots of lube and go slow. And even then, don't do stainless Nyloc on stainless threads unless you're an expert. Now I don't know if Koni's damper shaft is stainless, but it might be. Did they supply the stainless Nyloc nuts with the dampers? All those parts were in the same box?  Seems they would know about the risks. Especially by now.

So is the yellow tip the thing that you spin to change the damping? Seems like you could just take a small piece of metal tubing and judiciously "crush" one end to ovalize it and allow it to grip that yellow tab. If that's the case, it would be an easy way to make a longer tool to reach the adjuster.

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As the owner of a sailboat for over 20 years, one quickly learns how to correctly deal with stainless steel fasteners. From the book "Lessons Learned at Mother's Knee", not just any old lube will work with SS - it needs to be an anti-seize lube that resists the thread-to-thread pressure that will displace ordinary lubes. I have one container that has copper as a component. The SS fittings on our hydraulic lines will always benefit from some anti-seize. While installing my KONI's I noted a light colored lube on the threads, possibly a lithium type lube. And yes... slow and easy is the technique.

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Yup. That's typical galling. Here's some links that talk about such things. Some of these even specifically call out stainless nyloc nuts:

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Materials-and-Grades/Thread-galling.aspx

https://www.anzor.com.au/blog/what-is-stainless-galling

https://www.westfieldfasteners.co.uk/Ref_Thread_Galling.html

The bottom line is usually... Use lots of lube and go slow. And even then, don't do stainless Nyloc on stainless threads unless you're an expert. Now I don't know if Koni's damper shaft is stainless, but it might be. Did they supply the stainless Nyloc nuts with the dampers? All those parts were in the same box?  Seems they would know about the risks. Especially by now.

So is the yellow tip the thing that you spin to change the damping? Seems like you could just take a small piece of metal tubing and judiciously "crush" one end to ovalize it and allow it to grip that yellow tab. If that's the case, it would be an easy way to make a longer tool to reach the adjuster.

 

Interesting links, thanks for sharing. My mistakes were that 1. I was in a hurry so I was undoing it quickly. 2. I didn’t stop immediately when I felt it fight back. Within a second of it resisting, it had welded itself solid!

 

The nuts all come in the sealed bag of bits Koni supply with the dampers. I do believe it is a stainless steel thread as it is part of the single piece damper shaft.

 

The yellow tip is indeed the adjustment - quite a neat solution. I agree with you - the pipe is the way forward. Because two of the dampers arrived damaged in the post, I have a template in the garage to work from. I quite like the idea of making something that looks properly machined.

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I doubt the shaft is made of stainless steel. Typically the bright finish is hard chrome over a higher carbon steel.

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A closeup of the actual threads would be interesting.  

Are you sure the blue material wasn't actually a blob of threadlocker?  It's the latest thing, pre-applied threadlocker, encapuslated material that breaks open when it's crushed.  You see it on many of the things you buy through the mail now, unassembled.  Screws and bolts with blue blobs on the threads.

The automotive industry is a big driver of the technology.  Perfect for assembly line work.

https://nylok.com/

image.png

 

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Freaking IKEA instructions - give me a break . 
what about the spacer ? I can’t find it in the instructions . 

2EE03A84-EB46-43C7-8FBA-3658F2FD372C.jpeg

A012C89B-1592-468C-8C18-ED63A82CE042.jpeg

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A closeup of the actual threads would be interesting.  
Are you sure the blue material wasn't actually a blob of threadlocker?  It's the latest thing, pre-applied threadlocker, encapuslated material that breaks open when it's crushed.  You see it on many of the things you buy through the mail now, unassembled.  Screws and bolts with blue blobs on the threads.
The automotive industry is a big driver of the technology.  Perfect for assembly line work.
https://nylok.com/
image.png.6e012fe360e1e9ef8452969c5f191221.png
 


I don’t have a better picture unfortunately, I was just glad to get the blessed thing off and get on with my life. It was definitely nyloc and I ditched the rest!!!


Freaking IKEA instructions - give me a break . 
what about the spacer ? I can’t find it in the instructions . 
2EE03A84-EB46-43C7-8FBA-3658F2FD372C.thumb.jpeg.17a0d35494bc357bb4171a65da36ce35.jpeg
A012C89B-1592-468C-8C18-ED63A82CE042.thumb.jpeg.5115c9852e6ba0e0742d0a4421bb49a1.jpeg



You said it spot on IKEA instructions!!!!!!!!! They do need improvement for sure.

That white disc thing - what do you suppose it does? I didn’t fit mine in the end as I could see no real need for them except to rattle and annoy me!

As for the spacer, it vexed me for some time. What I decided in the end was to put it the same way up as you have. It came through the spring top hat as I tightened the nut like an “interference fit”. It didn’t need much more than 25lbft to come through; i know this as I did it gingerly using a digital torque wrench. That way, it holds the spring top hat centre on and doesn’t interfere with the bump stop.

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The white disc has been discussed before.  It's a hot Koni topic all over the internet.  Plug "koni insert white disc" in to your favorite search engine.

Apparently it keeps the bump stop off the top of the strut.  It's a bump stop landing pad.

 

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