Power of Z article - GQ Style

[Zed Head]

Motorman7 posted this link in his sale thread.  Didn't want to mess it up.

Somebody named Chris Karl says the first Z's didn't have power brakes.  Is that correct?  Other interesting words from the usual suspects.

https://www.gq.com/story/datsun-240z-oral-history

"Karl: And they're very mechanical, too. If you just look at the engine design, and watch one being revved, then you see all the mechanical linkage connected to the carburetor. You have to understand how to drive a machine. There were no driver aids. Power brakes, power steering—all these things that we take for granted, all of those components—didn't exist. "

[SteveJ]

I would think he was misquoted. Chris is the executive director of the ZCCA and knows 240Zs fairly well.

[Zed Head]

I'd guess that those are transcribed from a tape.  Maybe he mis-spoke.  There was probably beer involved.  Just wondered if maybe the very first Z's did come very primitive.

Some of the other comments seem a little extreme.  I'm pretty sure the stories about the European teams quitting after getting beat is told by the Ford GT-40 guys too.   Some bench-racing going on maybe.  The L6 was a hand grenade?

The article is a fun read though.

" The engine was designed by guys over at Nissan who had never built a race engine. In the end we took this engine that was an absolute hand grenade and we built one of the best production racing engines in the world. The car was unbeatable. We took it out for the first time, and we smoked the Porsches. And Porsche, unable to compete with us, quit. Triumph quit as well. "

[26th-Z]

Technically speaking, the brakes on the S30 series are "vacuum assisted".  There is no hydraulic pump power assist that is common today.  But, yea, you could call them "power brakes".  S30s never had power steering.

[Zed Head]

The question wasn't about "power brakes".  Everyone knows what that means. 

It was about whether or not the very first cars had power brakes.  I'm guessing that Karl mis-spoke and threw brakes in with steering.

[w3wilkes]

I agree with 26thZ. Power brakes and vacuum assist … Big difference, I consider power brakes as brakes that have a belt or electric pump for the braking system, requires power from either the engine or alternator.

[Zed Head]

This argument is especially odd since I think that both of you guys are old enough to have lived through the transition to "power brakes".   Seems like hair-splitting for the sake of being contrary, rather than for the sake of getting things right, as the other guy likes to say.  "Power brakes" and vacuum assist were synonymous when all of us were growing up.  There's no difference, let alone a big one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_brakes

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Zed Head

[HS30-H]

11 hours ago, Zed Head said:

The article is a fun read though.

" The engine was designed by guys over at Nissan who had never built a race engine. In the end we took this engine that was an absolute hand grenade and we built one of the best production racing engines in the world. The car was unbeatable. We took it out for the first time, and we smoked the Porsches. And Porsche, unable to compete with us, quit. Triumph quit as well. "

Reality check: During the manufacturing and sales period of the S30-series Z (1969 through 1978), Porsche won the World Championship For Makes in 1969, 1970, 1971, 1976, 1977 and 1978, and the International Cup For GT Cars (AKA the World GT Championship) in 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975 and 1976.

Seems they had their own unique way to "quit"...

[26th-Z]

"The Stainless Steel Carrot"; Sylvia Wilkinson would be the best insight to the quote, Alan.  Not so much a fact check but rather an insight to the man who said that.

[HS30-H]

12 minutes ago, 26th-Z said:

"The Stainless Steel Carrot"; Sylvia Wilkinson would be the best insight to the quote, Alan.  Not so much a fact check but rather an insight to the man who said that.

And I've read it! I know that - by their very nature - such quotes can be hyperbolic. I just think it's worth putting them in context and not swallowing them - and repeating them - whole.

I sometimes ask - rhetorically - exactly what models of Porsche were taking part in SCCA C-Production in the period concerned, and how deep was the "factory" connection in the "factory Porsche team" type quotes. Usually don't get a full answer. Nissan's support for the guys using Datsun product was certainly an order of magnitude greater.

"Triumph quit as well" is a strange one for the old Mic Drop too, when Triumph (ie - privateers driving Triumph product) took the championships in SCCA G-Production class in 1970, '71, '72, 74 and '75. An Austin Healey Sprite - another BL product - took the class win in '73.

I'm a great admirer of Pete Brock and the BRE team, but let's treasure their achievements in some sort of perspective.  

[26th-Z]

Unidentified pertinence:

"As best I can tell from various sources...Richie Ginther, as an employee of VW-Pacific, was commissioned by VW (Jo Hoppen) to built six 914-6 cars for 1970, for dealers to go for the 1970 ARRC (Road Atlanta) C Production National Championships. Two of those were campaigned by VW-Pacific for Alan Johnson and Elliot Forbes Robinson. They only got 4th and 5th at the ARRC behind the Datsuns. VW lost interest in the program and the cars were raced in 1971 but not seriously."

I concur with the statement above from personal knowledge.

Bob Tullius of Group 44 fame campaigned a Triumph TR-6 in C-Production during the 1970 - 1971 SCCA "American Road Race of Champions" with similar results against the BRE Datsuns.

Another thing to consider is that the racing we are referring to was considered "amateur racing" in the day.  Porsche's success in the series you have cited, Alan, were considered "professional racing" by comparison.

[HS30-H]

1 hour ago, 26th-Z said:

Another thing to consider is that the racing we are referring to was considered "amateur racing" in the day.  Porsche's success in the series you have cited, Alan, were considered "professional racing" by comparison.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my somewhat rhetorical question. My point has always been that Porsche (as in the German company itself and its own works race team(s)) hardly had a dog in that C-Production fight.

I'm not saying that SCCA C-Production was small potatoes, but the habit of talking-up the involvement of companies like Porsche and Triumph (EG "Porsche, unable to compete with us, quit") takes the situation out of its original context. The BRE team took the preparation and participation to another level, effectively a professional team in what had been an 'amateur' class and series.