Prohibition on Gasoline Containing Lead or Lead Additives for Highway Use

[Guycali]

For those with non-hardened valve seats in their 240z's running lead additives, did you know we are prohibited driving on highways? http://www.epa.gov/docs/EPA-AIR/1996/February/Day-02/pr-1326.html

I just bought a can of lead substitues for my E88 head and it cost a little over $3 bucks/can. Not only this is a hassel but additional expense every fill-up. Is it possible to replace hardened valve seats into the E88 or is it better to upgrade to later heads like N42, N47 etc.? Also, where can I find cheaper lead additives for about a dollar/can?

-Guycali

[SHOTIME]

Victoria British has hardened seats/guides. They're cheap themselves, but its putting them in that's expensive. Because everything has to be taken apart, you might as well rebuild the head.

[EScanlon]

Guycali:

The document you linked refers to PRODUCTION and SALE of leaded gasoline. Unless you put up a sign in front of your garage that says LEADED Gasoline For Sale, I don't think you have a problem.

In my quick reading of it, it addresses that leaded gasoline is still permitted for certain uses, BUT does not specifically address individuals adding additives to the gasoline in their vehicles.

Looking at it another way, if the addition of a lead substitute to gasoline were in fact illegal, would you still be able to go to your local Automotive Supply Store and pick up the little convenient bottle? I don't think so.

2¢

[Alfadog]

A bit off-track but I need to ask it at some stage and why not hijack this topic ?? ROFL

I have been told there is some way to modify the head/engine so it runs on unleaded... something about the valves perhaps? Is this so, and what is involved (ie how much money)?

Lead replacement fuel is $$$ and is crap quality these days... if originality isn't such an issue transfering to unleaded might be an option

[sjcurtis]

I thought a standard valve seats on the E88 heads where hardened. Did the states other than California get a diffrent spec E88 head with soft valves and seats. I had heard that the E88 was the first of the zero lead tolerant heads and was a change driven by the California smog requirements.

cheers

Steve:classic:

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by sjcurtis

I thought a standard valve seats on the E88 heads where hardened. Did the states other than California get a diffrent spec E88 head with soft valves and seats. I had heard that the E88 was the first of the zero lead tolerant heads and was a change driven by the California smog requirements.

There are two versions of the E88 head. Early style which is virtually identical to the E31, and the 1973/74 version E88 which is of lower compression and generally considered as a "smog" head.

When I took my early E88 to Dave Rebello for a rebuild he told me that my head had the original "soft" valve seats, and he replaced them with hardened seats as part of the rebuild service.

Perhaps the later (1973 / 74) E88 head had hardened seats when manufactured. I DUNNO

[Zedrally]

Originally posted by Alfadog

I have been told there is some way to modify the head/engine so it runs on unleaded... something about the valves perhaps? Is this so, and what is involved (ie how much money)?

Cost me roughly $400, that included new valves,guides, seats & machining.

Possibly less if your head is in good shape.

But why do you want to run un-leaded?

Personally, I'll swear by Shell LRP, and if I really want a blast then I'll top up with Optimax.

HIH

[Gav240z]

The E88 head as far as I know does not have hardened valve seats. Mine had the ZX valves installed so they come with the harder valve seats and there slightly bigger aswell giving of course more power .

Alfa I used to use LRP hate the stuff too. I use premium all the time besides the lead in the fuel is bad for you and the environment and remember when those windows are down you get some fumes in the car from time to time. Admittadely my car doesn't get much but any form of fumes is bad for you.

I'd say you should get them hardened. when money allows.

[Alfadog]

Mmm ok

my 240Z has had that work done on it already, but teh 240K hasn't and I was just wondering... thanks

[Walter Moore]

For what it is worth, the story that I have read many times since they banned leaded gas in the U.S. is that the U.S. Army tested unleaded gas in their older vehicles back in the 1970s and determined that for a car with any significant mileage already on it using leaded gas, running it on unleaded gas did not "significantly" shorten its useful life.

Of course since then the army has switched all its vehicles to run on jet fuel, so I do no know what they meant when they said its useful life...

I know that I have run some pre-catalist cars on unleaded gas for years with no ill effects, but that is no guarantee of anything.

My OPNION, with little to back it up is that the worst thing that could happen using unleaded gas on an old head is to burn the valves, but if you have to rebuild the head to prevent that... is it that much different to just wait and rebuild it afterward?

(Spoken by someone who has to rebuild his head anyway...)

[Z Kid]

Just to add a touch of brightness in your day, Australia is phasing out the LRP petrol as well. Not sure when, but its fairly soon, got warned at the car club meeting, but you can get a log book from canberra to run avgas on the road .

[Gav240z]

Well that's what i need AVGAS my car always pings when it comes out of tune. A little AVGAS would be good but u can't get it from the pump so... :classic: .

Would be interesting to see how AVGAS goes but.

[sjcurtis]

AVGAS from the pump, the bowser at ORAN Park pumped avgas for years, I never though anything of filling up before going home after the meet in the 80's & 90's. even the occasional 20lt drum for ron. Burn rates and addatives are the killer with avgas. they nearly killed the Australian General avaition fleet in 1999/2000 by F@#%$^** up the mix rate by a thousand to one for one additive.

LRP is fraud it does not protect or stop the effect of Zero Lead it just takes your money as and acts as a placebo while your engine goes thru its normal degrade to end game. they just found another way to suck money for nothing.

For my money pump ULP into the tank and rebuild as or if required, you will save money and have peace of mind getting there.

Important = Oh and re-tune for unleaded.

Cheers

Steve :classic:

[Guycali]

Well, I bought this '72 last August and had just got it to running condition recently. It didn't occur to me to ask the previous owner whether he had added lead substitutes continuously with each fill-up or had the valve seats been replaced with the hardened ones when I bought the car. I just don't want to worsen its current condition any more.

Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs (FBHVC) endorsed and approved lead substitutes were Millers VSP-Plus, Red Line Lead Substitute, Superblend 12 / Zero Lead 2000, and Valvemaster. Of the four brands, only Red Line is sold here in the U.S. I guess the generic brand I bought at Autozone won't give me much protection but at least it'll give a little peace of mind and get me on the road now. I wonder if any organization here in the U.S. had done a similar test comparison of lead substitutes?

The link I provided shocked me because of the phrase "on highways". Not sure the exact legality of the ruling but it may be legal to drive with lead substituted fuel locally but not on highways. That'd be strange though because combustion efficiency and fuel economy are worse in local driving than highway at constant speed. :stupid:

[TKR514]

I've run AvGas from the plane several times in my Z here in the States. 100 octane high lead (although it's labled low lead). As far as I can tell, this "off road" fuel is not labled in any way that prevents it's use in "on road" vehicles... $2.30 a gallon but it boes well at 50/50 with unleaded.