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Careless

240Z Resto - 01/1970 Car

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I have had several sets apart and have never seem any trace of the yellow zinc. You would think that the inside of the mating surface between the two haves would still have some finish left if that was the case. I was"t  looking for it, just don't remember seeing any. 

 

yeah i took the original set apart today, and they were definitely seized. I'm not sure if they ever had any kind of yellow zinc on them either. but they could have been replaed at some point as well?

 

I had to clamp the halves of the caliper to a table on both ends (where the bolt holes are) with the piston facing down. then injected some air into the bleeder fitting hole and it sounded like bomb went off. It was in there pretty good! I doubt it was ever changed.

 

I'll inspect between the two halves to see if there is any yellowing.

Edited by Careless

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Carb Coolant Bypass Tube (Over as pictured here, or under the manifold nut/washer?)

 

Under..against he head

 

awesome, thanks! i figured that's how it was. I had it mounted like that, but realized I needed to have the rear engine slinger plated silver so i removed it for now.

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anyone know what the original plating colour on the brake NP valve is? I have two photos here, but one shows clear zinc, the other shows hints of yellow zinc on the threads.

 

when I pulled the one apart, I could have sworn there was no yellow at all, so I was going to do it clear zinc.

4gmbpov.jpg

 

fQGBqIa.jpg

 

probably gonna go with clear zinc.

 

really don't remember it being yellow. though i did see a fully rebuilt unit with yellow...

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The body of the NP valve is definitely not plated, as it wouldn't come out pretty when the aluminum is dipped in the muriatic acid prior to plating. i'm wondering about the the end-cap screws, sensor sleeve (with the copper terminal coming through) and mounting spacer. 

 

I was just going through all the stuff in the garage that I have to sort for plating this week. Man, this is gonna be a big run. I just took about 400 misc hardware items out of the tumbler and sorted them out. It was probably one of the bigger runs I've done in the tumbler but it was all flat washers, lock washers, and small nuts. 

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The restore looks great!

On post #89, it looks lke the transmission tunnel is black instead of body color. Is that original or would it typically be body color?

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Im with ya now. The two I have for a 280Z look very much like the plugs have silver zinc plating. The bolt and spacer washer is yellow zinc. I dont know if Nabco would have changed the process over the years.

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The restore looks great!

On post #89, it looks lke the transmission tunnel is black instead of body color. Is that original or would it typically be body color?

 

To be fair, the body work that was done on the car was excellent, except for a couple of bolts that they did not extract before painting the chassis. The quality of the body work is exceptional, and was done by another restoration shop before I started to work on the vehicle.

 

It may have to be body colour, but that is something that I don't think I could change, even if I wanted to. I thought about that too- but in the end, It's something that will just have to do for now!

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ughhhhhhh so many finishes that i have no reference for.

 

hubs... to plate, or not to plate?

 

kTrz2cd.jpg

 

MSA reconditions them and plates them, but the ones I have here are painted black. Not sure if I should strip, bead blast, and plate. Will be clear zinc plating the rotors so they dont rust, but the hubs will probably never been seen.

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Sorry, been MIA here! Back with some textual updates:

 

 

Dear Diary, 

 

Recently received and organized/bagged 1000+ plated fasteners and hardware.

 

I was finding that fastener and hardware store bought washers, lock washers, and odds and ends were just really shitty and looked terribly ugly. I went shopping for a bunch of washers locally everywhere, and the ones they had were all cheaply produced. I even ordered a small quantity online from two sources, and the photos were not indicative of the item I received. Most have a knurled outside edge that looks really ugly, or the lock thickness was thinner or oddly round shaped as opposed to the distinct and well defined square stock shape of the Datsun ones. I know I'm just splitting hairs here, but even the way they sit under the bolt head was just making me hate using them if they were visible. There are also some Datsun lock washers that are distinctly fatter than the common ones, and those are uncommon and hard to find/search for- and you get weird looks asking for them at hardware stores- even if  you bring a sample and tell them "No, I'm sure this isn't Imperial/Standard size of some sort. I know where it came from"

 

 The factory ones are easily identifiable in my eyes (and I'm legally blind in one eye!... so I've got a 50% chance of pointing it out if you need some help  LOL).

 

Also, the plating on almost every single one was flat clear zinc. No chromate to them. No yellow ones that looked decent. 

 

I decided to just dump the entire box of old washers, nuts, locks, and odds and ends into the tumbler after attempting to sort them. It was kind of an "ahhhhh f*ck it" moment where I figured I would sort them out later. So I had them all cleaned and all plated along with plenty of other brake/suspension hardware bits, and I received a bunch of parts from the dealer that will allow me to install the engine after I assemble them, and after I drill out a painted-over broken bolt for one of the brake line brackets on the firewall of the freshly painted chassis. BOOOOOOOO!!!! So far that makes 3 bolts that were just ... swept under the rug. Small issues, though. The rest of the work done on the body prior to me working on it is outstanding, so all I can hope for is that I don't chip or scratch the finish trying to extract this bolt. It's a visible one on the drivers side of the firewall just below the steering column exit hole.

 

 

I'll be assembling some of the parts and complex items that have been long separated from their hardware, awaiting plating finishes in order to be put back together. Then I can reclaim some of my garage space in doing so, and then on to cleaning up interior pieces. Also got my engine-lift leveller, so I'll be carefully nestling the motor in some shipping blankets while I lift it off the engine stand to avoid scratches and disasters. 

 

 

 

Pics to follow!

Edited by Careless

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On 12/22/2015 at 2:46 AM, Consigli said:

That engine is just gorgeous. It belongs in the Louvre!

Thanks Consigli! <3

 

Funny thing about that engine. Took it off the engine stand and put it on a dolly today so I could install the Drivetrain parts.

Well whattaya know! The Part Number that supercedes all other Clutch Disc part numbers is bogus, and is the wrong disc.

C0100-22500 does not work with the factory pressure plate. The design of the protruding hub that holds the springs as well as the rivets that holds the assembly together touches the 3 flat spots in the center of the part of the pressure plate were the hub sits... each flat has 2 rivets to hold the diaphragm to the friction surface plate together.

Quite a set back now, as I was hoping to have the engine in tomorrow. :( 

I had initially found the superceded number through my dealer software, and today I verified that it is indeed the last number on the supercesion chain. But I can't return it because it's special order? Thaaaaaaanks Nissan. Y U GOTTA PLAY ME LIKE DAT?

 

Anyone have any insight into this? I was hoping to show you guys the engine in the car this week but that doesn't look likely- unless I find a disc somewhere.

 

Edited by Careless

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What's the pressure plate number?  Just for reference.  And, maybe, at least, you can get the right pressure plate for the odd disc and have a set.

We all like pictures too, if you have them.

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3 hours ago, Zed Head said:

yes, it is from a Stanza, but I confirmed with the dealer that it is the number that the latest 240Z one eventually supersedes to.

3 hours ago, Zed Head said:

What's the pressure plate number?  Just for reference.  And, maybe, at least, you can get the right pressure plate for the odd disc and have a set.

We all like pictures too, if you have them.

The pressure plate is the OEM 240Z one. The disc is from Nissan made by Valeo. I will have to take photos of the assembly tomorrow, but it's quite difficult to take photos of the contact area because I have to peep through a tiny slot to get a good visual on where it's hitting.

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Hey Chris,

If you have a clutch kit, you should be ok. They come with the pressure plate and disc (some with flywheel too), so they will be matched and operate without this hub contact issue.

I believe this has something to do with the two different styles of OEM pressure plates offered... I'm not sure why there are different pressure plates for the 2 Seater and 2+2- but perhaps I spec'd out the wrong disc? 

In any case, I have a friend who has an SR20 clutch disc and pressure plate that I am going to look at. If his pressure plate can accept this disc, and the 240z pressure plate can accept the SR20 disc- I will see if he's willing to trade.

Kinda sucks... this disc is 125+ dollars :-/

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1 hour ago, bartsscooterservice said:

no

Thanks! I've got some rebuilt calipers that were cheap and done well and they have all the factory hardware too. So I just coated them and they are ready to install with ceramic pads so that they don't dust up the fresh wheels and wheel covers!

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Public Service Announcement RE: Clutch Friction Discs

It seems that Nissan has created a compatibility issue with their superseding chain of parts... allow me to enlighten:

 

Here we see item Key #1 for clutch disc

mOCt2wo.png

 

Here are the part numbers associated with the selected item key #1 for the clutch disc

9UJSfrL.png

 

Assembly 30100-E4300 supersedes to 30100-E4301 and to a bunch of other numbers, all of which are NOT available from the dealer. Surprise, Surprise. I know what you're thinking- get a clutch kit... Well I had the flywheel resurfaced, and had a very very very light skim on the pressure plate (so as to not reduce clamping load from over-machining), and thought the disc at 125 dollars would be cheaper, but now due to this incompatibility issue it's costing me money out of pocket because I don't think the owner of the car should be responsible. I will take it up with my dealer and see if I can prove the compatibility error and at least get a full or partial credit.

When I discussed with my dealer, the 30100-E4301 number moved on up to the following:

- 30100-D4400 (280Z number, I think)
--- 30100-59E01
------ C0100-22500

My guess is that the numbers work... provided you have the associated pressure plate. However, being that it's such an old entry, there are no comments in the dealership FAST software that denotes any requirements or prerequisites- soooo that may be the ticket for me making a case with my parts guy. the last number is the one I ordered, and it is also the same number I found on another website that used the nissan parts database and had notes like "this part has been replaced with the following" and had a link to another page. If I find that site, I will post the link, it should still be around somewhere. Just a matter of finding it again for the sake of verification. It really makes no difference if Nissan themselves has the same issue with their parts listings. I would have ended up with that disc anyways if I went straight to them. My only issue is the "special order" stuff is not refundable- but in this case, it wouldn't have been a mistake on my part since the part provided would have matched the one I was seeking anyways.

Anyyyyyyyyyyyways... I may have found an NOS disc in a stockpile that I will be looking at soon. On my way to get the pressure plate and clutch parts to do some more test fitting tonight. It will put me back a week or so, but I can do other things like concentrate on wiring and other bits and odds and ends.

Will have reports soon, so at least this kerfuffle is documented somewhere on the outernet.

Edited by Careless

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This thread linked above (cool forum feature, btw!) has photos of the same setup (everything) that is on this car.

it is the 4 Speed Type "A" style setup.

you can see from these photos taken by member fuzze that there are the 3 pads on the inside of the pressure plate that have the 2 rivets. These are what the new clutch disc with a wider hub and 4 larger springs which I've been given seems to contact. Later pressure plates with (shorter ones, I think) do not have those 3 flat spots and 6 rivets on the inside of the hub area, and they accommodate only the 6 spring smaller diameter hub section from what I can tell.

post-15588-14150824899563.jpg

This is the outside of the pressure plate. the rivets on the outside are purely for balancing purposes, as the one I have are in different spots, and have different amounts of metal sandwiched on the back.... though the rivets in this photo looks to be a lot better condition. perhaps I will just replace the rivets:

post-15588-14150824900652.jpg

Now I know there is a way of getting the newer styles to work with swapping collars and yada-yada, but to be honest I'd rather just have the original parts in there, so I think the new disc that I ordered will be fine.

The old disc has a number F225DC and is marked AISIN, so it's not a Valeo unit, and the pressure plate has 30210, and has A N stamped on it, as well as a very faint circular blue stamping that is probably some sort of quality control check. It is most likely Aisin as well.

I believe the new disc I am getting is a Daikin unit, but not the Exedy Daikin that is available through parts dealers.


Anyways... food for thought!

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How did you even see that?  Most of us would have just put the thing together, there would have been some odd noise during the first few clutch disengagements, and the rivet tops would have worn off.  Problem only discovered, maybe, years later.

Also, is it possible that you were looking at it with the disc backward?  The normal contact spot, if the disc is backward, is the hub on the fly wheel bolts, but if you were just looking at disc and plate, you wouldn't notice that.

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I've done many clutch jobs in my day, not on S30's, but on Z31s, 350z, 370z and many other non-nissan cars, including plenty of older domestic cars... All with my back on concrete, mind you- but nonetheless it was easy to see while test fitting. I am aware of the hub direction when installing, so that is definitely not the issue. Either way, I tried it upside down anyways, just to be sure. :P

I had bought the disc at first and compared it to the old one, and even placed the protruding side of the hub into the pressure plate, and it was all good. But when going to do a final check before putting the scatter shield and flywheel on, I was inspecting the parts. The disc DOES indeed go hub-first into the pressure plate, and the friction pads do touch the pressure plate surface... However, when turning the disc, there is about 5 degrees in either direction (CW/CCW) before one of the rivets on the hub contact one of the rivets on the pressure plate. I thought at first I could get by using a grinding disc and just nipping a bit off the rivets, as they are much thicker than the ones on the old OE disc, so a 1/16th off the rivet would barely make it any less rigid and provide a long service life, but then the bent tabs that hold the disc hub springs (which are also 4 instead of 6, and much larger in length and diameter) would then touch the edge of the 3 flat spots on the pressure plate that holds the two rivets.

Yes, I could have put it together and hoped that the rivets would be wiped off... but the idea here is to not have the rivet tops wear off, because if the friction pads fly apart, it is then severely unbalanced, and could cause catastrophic failure. Also, the pressure plate rivets are very thin in comparison to the disc hub rivets. I don't want any contact where it's not supposed to be an issue later down the road. I've not only seen first hand what an exploding flywheel does, but even clutch discs that try to expand outward into a million pieces don't fail gracefully. It would not have been so insignificant as a rivet top being burnished a bit. The rivets on the pressure plate are very thin, and the spring tabs are thick, so being impacted would tweak the 24 splined hub of the disc on the input shaft axis and cause it to bind, being that there is a spring underneath them and they aren't going to just bend inward like it was being hammered.

So that's my prognosis. It wouldn't have been pretty!

The reason I am posting it is to make anyone with the same pressure plate aware of the fact that the disc provided by the dealer is no longer compatible with the very early "A style" clutch components, unless it is the narrower 6 spring hub, or an aftermarket narrower 4 spring hub like later exedy's (can't confirm on that 100%). Even the 6 spring style sweeps passed the pressure plate rivets just ever so slightly so much as to make contact if they are really both worn out, but I think by that time the pressure plate clamp load would be so light that it would be time to change to a new assembly altogether anyways.

To give an example example of how rare these pressure plates are... I have yet to find any other photos of the units online with the same undulations and shapes like the ones posted by fuzzee. Most are replaced as an assembly and thrown away, I guess.

Edited by Careless

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