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black gold man

Vintage Z pictures

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This really belongs in another thread, since it isn't a "vintage racing picture". Maybe an admin can move this and the prior post to a new thread?

Anyway, here is a picture of the front of the car posted in another thread on that same site (v8buick.com). It looks like the Chicago Auto show was held Feb 21 - March 1, 1970. Carl Beck thought there may have been a Safari Gold 240z at the NY auto show in Oct 1969 http://forums.ctzcc.com/viewtopic.php?t=4577&sid=57e741b4514cde6bf3f938fe006077ff. Maybe it was "lucky #13"?

-Mike

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Maybe an admin can move this and the prior post to a new thread?
Ask, and ye shall receive.

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I was thinking it looks like # 13

Yeah, but it also looks like (HLS30) #16, #42, and every other Safari Gold early series 1 left hand drive 240Z that was made... HLS30-00009 through HLS30-00012 (and maybe some other lower VINs) are also unaccounted for too.

Ask, and ye shall receive.

Thanks Arne!

-Mike

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Anyway, here is a picture of the front of the car posted in another thread on that same site (v8buick.com). It looks like the Chicago Auto show was held Feb 21 - March 1, 1970.

By March of 1970 the first couple thousand Datsun 240Z's had arrived in the U.S. I bought HLS30 01777 March 14, 1970. The East and West Coast States seemed to get most of them - and most people in the Mid-Western States had no idea what the car was when they first saw one on the roads.

Carl Beck thought there may have been a Safari Gold 240z at the NY auto show in Oct 1969. Maybe it was "lucky #13"?

Actually - the man that made the arrangements for the International Preview held in N.Y. in Oct - thought he remembered the car that was there being Gold. As I recall when I talked to Bob Sharp he said the car at the New York Auto Show, held later was Green.

"Lucky 13" - Lucky to have survived the past 41 years. Lucky that someone that knew its significance grabbed it and preserved it.

FWIW,

Carl B.

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I was just going to say but Carl stated it correctly; the New York Auto Show is in the spring, April. The October 1969 thing was not the New York Auto Show.

Cool pictures from Chicago!

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By March of 1970 the first couple thousand Datsun 240Z's had arrived in the U.S. I bought HLS30 01777 March 14, 1970. The East and West Coast States seemed to get most of them - and most people in the Mid-Western States had no idea what the car was when they first saw one on the roads.

Carl, how could there be thousands of 240Z's in the US by March 1970? According to the official production numbers that Kats' obtained there were a total of 1,553 export S30s produced by Jan 1970, 2,061 by Feb 1970, and 2,745 by March 1970. I would think it would take several weeks to a month or more to ship them to the US and have them delivered to dealers. I also thought the production changes that severely slowed the Dec 1969 production kept most of the cars that had already been built prior to that from being shipped right away. The few 1969 production cars that I have seen records of were sold in April or May. Chris' HLS30-00026 was sold on 4/29/70. My HLS30-00210 was sold on 5/11/70, and so was HLS30-00196. HLS30-00415 was sold on 4/1/70. Of course other cars were delivered before them, but I doubt there would have been thousands in the US by March (some of the export cars went to Canada and other countries too I assume).

Since the Chicago Auto Show started on Feb 21, 1970 I would think the car would have been build no later than January, so it must have been one of the first 1,553 export models.

Actually - the man that made the arrangements for the International Preview held in N.Y. in Oct - thought he remembered the car that was there being Gold. As I recall when I talked to Bob Sharp he said the car at the New York Auto Show, held later was Green.

Ok, I stand corrected then. I was referring to the "International Preview of the Datsun 240Z - at the Pierre Hotel in New York, 22 Oct. 1969." that you posted about being a gold car on the CTZCC thread I linked to.

I don't think the gold car at the Chicago Auto Show is HLS30-00013, but I guess nobody knows for sure.

-Mike

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Yes, I was surprised to read that HLS30-01777 was sold in March. Does March 14th mean you ordered it Carl? Or did you take delivery? Where did you buy it from?

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Some more questions for you, Carl:

Actually - the man that made the arrangements for the International Preview held in N.Y. in Oct - thought he remembered the car that was there being Gold.

Given the grand title attached to this event, it's a little surprising that so little seems to be known about what was on display at the Pierre Hotel. Seems that the memory of one man is one of the only references to such a basic detail as the colour of the car on display....

And about that "International Preview" title - can I ask where it comes from? Was this written on any official document of the time ( like the invitations to the event, or any MNC USA press release associated with it ), or is it in fact a title that you have decided to give it?

Your zhome page reporting all this claims that "hundreds of reporters and guests" visited the Pierre Hotel event, and yet I don't recall having seen a single photograph of the car on display or a single report in the contemporary Japanese press. Very little in the English speaking automotive press, too ( almost nothing in fact ). That's quite surprising considering the rather grand title associated with it, isn't it?

I'm also puzzled to see that you report the car "..... had been flown in from Tokyo arriving the week before and after clearing U.S. Customs it finally arrived at the Hotel the 16 of Oct., just in time to get it set up on display in the Pierre Hotel's Grand Ballroom." So it arrived at the hotel one full week before the doors opened? That must have been quite some display if it took them a full week to build the show around it, and it had arrived "just in time". Something not quite adding up there, I think.

I notice that your zhome page completely ignores that Nissan held a 'Press Preview' event at its Ginza, Tokyo HQ on October 18th. Present was an Export model 'Datsun 240Z', as well as examples of Fairlady Z, Fairlady Z-L, Fairlady Z432 and Fairlady Z432-R models. If there was any "International Preview" of the 240Z then this event surely deserves the title?

I've mentioned this before ( and have good reason to believe it ) but I'll mention it again: I believe the Pierre Hotel event was another example of Katayama reacting to events and schedules in Japan and trying to trump them. I don't think it is any coincidence that the Ginza Press Preview was held on the 18th October, and that the doors of the Tokyo Motor Show would open on 24th October. Katayama organised the Pierre Hotel event rather more on the fly than your claim for it to have been planned "months in advance" would have us believe. If it had been planned months in advance then why did they need to airfreight the car in at extra cost?

The plain fact is that Katayama didn't have a major US show in which to debut the car in the US market until the following calendar year ( the NY Auto Show was in early 1970 ), and needed to do something about it in reaction to the date of the 1969 Tokyo Motor Show. It's the tail trying to wag the dog again.

Alan T.

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I believe the key to this conversation rests with the study of the North American Testing Program conducted between October and December 1969. Kats has compiled a ton of information and videos about this event and a search through the archives will confirm what I am about to say.

Yes, it is very peculiar that so little information exists about the New York "International Preview". What has been very well documented is that by mid-October 1969, two HLS30 test cars had been delivered for testing purposes, the cars were silver, and the Japanese testing team was lead by Eiji Osawa and Hitoshi Uemura. It is possible that one of those cars may have been flown to New York but there is no evidence of it. What evidence does exist is that the cars were shown in a Los Angeles show early November. Attached is an article from AutoWeek / Competition Press dated mid-November. Take a close look at the pictures. That car is one of the test cars.

I have heard all sorts of "information" about the preview in New York without any evidence or description about the event. And it has been incorrectly described as the New York Auto Show for way too long. We have all sorts of information about the test program, conducted at the same time, but no publicity documentation. Am I wrong, or is this "international preview in New York" just a bunch of gab and gossip? Carl, you have an original invitation, don't you?

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Yes, it is very peculiar that so little information exists about the New York "International Preview".

I have heard all sorts of "information" about the preview in New York without any evidence or description about the event. And it has been incorrectly described as the New York Auto Show for way too long. We have all sorts of information about the test program, conducted at the same time, but no publicity documentation. Am I wrong, or is this "international preview in New York" just a bunch of gab and gossip?

Kudos to you for laying it on the line, Chris. That "International Preview" title is pretty grand, and you'd think there would be more evidence of what was on display there, how it was displayed, and who was actually there if it really was quite as grand as all that.

The Competition Press & Autoweek article is interesting as - and tell me if I'm jumping to conclusions here - it was datelined October 27th ( mag published mid November, as you pointed out ), and yet the photos seem to be in-house 'stock' photos of - again, as you have pointed out - one of the two 'Kaku U' test cars. I noted the clock blanking plate and the recess cubby hole in the radio mount, and the lack of bonnet ( hood ) emblem, in contrast to the '2177' license plated car used in the January 1970 Road & Track magazine article - which had a clock, a radio and antenna, a bonnet emblem and white-band tyres.

After all this time we are still somewhat in the dark as regards to what cars were in the USA and/or Canada before the end of 1969, apart from the two 'Kaku U' north American test cars. No firm evidence / photos of a car or cars at either a N.Y. or L.A. event before the end of 1969, and any reports of the events simply used stock press release photos of cars which could have been taken anywhere, but were quite clearly not taken at the events in question.

I was surprised to see 'HLS30-00013' being put forward as a possible candidate for the N.Y. "International Preview" car in the ctzcc.com thread ( thanks for the link, Mike B ) as it seems to me that there's little real evidence that 'HLS30-00013' had even arrived on US soil that early. Indeed, it seems likely that it didn't arrive until January 1970 at the earliest, and quite possibly even later than that.

Several big holes to be filled here, I think.

Alan T.

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Yes, I was surprised to read that HLS30-01777 was sold in March. Does March 14th mean you ordered it Carl? Or did you take delivery? Where did you buy it from?

Hi Chris:

Actually I was at the local Porsche Dealership trying to trade my 67 911S on a 70 911E. We couldn't get together on the bottom line - and I was on my way back to the Base when I passed the Datsun Dealership and saw the 240Z in the showroom.

March 14th 1970 was my 25th birthday - Paul Jaremko and I pushed the car off the showroom floor at Valley Datsun in Spokane, Washington after the dealership closed for the day - Paul hadn't driven one yet so he and I took it for a drive.

I actually bought the car that night - as Paul and I didn't get back to the dealership until pretty late.

Bill Jones is on this forum - Bill had ordered a 70 2000 roadster - but canceled that when Paul gave him a copy of the Oct. 69 showroom sales brochure. Bill then ordered a 240Z - but he was shipped out before it arrived. Bill had ordered a Silver Z - and 1777 was silver. Bill used to tell me that I got HIS Z.. Of course Bill did return and took delivery of a Silver 71.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Edited by Carl Beck

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Carl, how could there be thousands of 240Z's in the US by March 1970?

I wrote and you quoted, By March of 1970 the first couple thousand - that would be 2000.

According to the official production numbers that Kats' obtained there were a total of 1,553 export S30s produced by Jan 1970, 2,061 by Feb 1970

Ok - 1553 Jan+2061 Feb = 3614 that could easily have been in the US by March. Even if you take out the 7% for the entire year that Canada received {1201} and the 2% that went to other countries for that entire year according to Nissan {324} - you still have 2089 by March.

The few 1969 production cars that I have seen records of were sold in April or May. Chris' HLS30-00026 was sold on 4/29/70. My HLS30-00210 was sold on 5/11/70, and so was HLS30-00196. HLS30-00415 was sold on 4/1/70. Of course other cars were delivered before them, but I doubt there would have been thousands in the US by March.

If you believe that the cars were delivered to the Dealers and sold in sequential serial number order - I can understand your doubts. If you believe that the Dealers actually let go of the first cars they received - and did not in fact retain them to show and demonstrate to build customer orders..then I guess you might be right.

I believe that all the cars were well mixed having been loaded/off loaded at the Ports, then shuffled around again as they were loaded onto trucks and trains for delivery to the Dealers. I believe that most Dealers retained some of the first cars as showroom displays and demo's - and only sold them after the supply became more steady. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if cars that arrived in Jan or Feb would have not been actually sold and delivered until April or May.

Since the Chicago Auto Show started on Feb 21, 1970 I would think the car would have been build no later than January, so it must have been one of the first 1,553 export models.

Very possibility correct.

FWIW,

Carl B.

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Looks like Carl's taken his ball home again......

Hi Alan:

No not really - just too limited on my time right now.

FWIW,

Carl B.

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Under the Fair Use clause of the copyright laws - I reproduce in part and as a reference - the New York Times article of 23 Oct. 1969.

Anyone that would like to read the complete article can search the N.Y.Times historical archives on-line. There is a fee for service and you have to agree to their copyright agreement.

Anyone can also access the L.A. Times historical archives - to find their coverage as well. There are other on-line services that offer historical newspaper databases as well.

Sorry for the brief reply- but .. everyone can do their own research and decide for themselves..

FWIW,

Carl B.

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Carl,

Thanks for taking the time to answer. I know you must be very busy, what with it being April 1st and all. Don't spread yourself too thin......

Under the Fair Use clause of the copyright laws - I reproduce in part and as a reference - the New York Times article of 23 Oct. 1969.

Not much bang for buck there, is there? Wouldn't even cover the cost of the vol-au-vents. Noted the small 'i' and small 'p' in the 'international preview' quote. "USA Preview" would have been more accurate, considering the model had already been previewed by the press ( unless Japan doesn't count for some reason.... ).

So, is that a stock Nissan press release photo? Did anybody take a photo of what was on display in the Pierre Hotel? It's still very mysterious, isn't it?

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Mike, what's so lucky about #13 ?

Chris you might not have know that #13 was the first Z car sold to the public in the US. It has changed hands a few times since then. I think it even spent some time in a junkyard. Also, not sure if this is a global belief, but the #13 is considered to be taboo, or generally unlucky, by the suspicious, here in the US. There are however, people like Rick and Kathy, who consider #13 to be very lucky. They are the current owners of #13. ;)

Edited by cygnusx1

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Chris you might not have know that #13 was the first Z car sold to the public in the US.
More accurate to say that HLS30-00013 was the lowest VIN NA-spec 240Z sold to the public. No way of know which car was actually SOLD first.

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The attached pic is supposed to be the first 240Z according to the Nissan archives.

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Carl, yes you got "my" Z, but at least someone that appreciated it got it. What Carl shares about Paul Jaremko rolling the Z off the show room floor to take it for a spin is an example of how Paul was to potential customers. I had the same experience when I test drove the 2000 roadster, except it had just rolled off the truck. Paul said lets go and off we went for a real ride. I picked up my May of '71 Z from Jaremko Motors on July 2, 1971. (In hindsight, I wish I had gotten the 2000 roadster also.)

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Hey Carl - thanks for the references! I didn't realize how much is on-line, but :stupid: What a wonderful romp through the archive on Datsun Lane. I guess you can buy the articles individually, but I'm having a moment with it, evidently. I saw several articles I would like to have about Datsun history.

And tell me more about the "First 240Z" picture! I had not seen this one before. Or am I having another moment?

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I wrote and you quoted, By March of 1970 the first couple thousand - that would be 2000.

Well, originally we were discussing what the VIN of 240Z at the 1970 Chicago Auto Show could be and since the show started Feb 21, 1970, I think it would have to have been a car produced no later than Jan 1970 (if not Dec 1969). Then you stated that "by March of 1970 the first couple thousand Datsun 240Z's had arrived in the U.S". Now you've clarified that means at least 2,000 in the US by March 1970, which I still doubt.

Ok - 1553 Jan+2061 Feb = 3614 that could easily have been in the US by March. Even if you take out the 7% for the entire year that Canada received {1201} and the 2% that went to other countries for that entire year according to Nissan {324} - you still have 2089 by March.

No, Carl, those were production cumulative totals I listed, not how many were produced each month. I was trying to save you from having to do any math, but I guess that didn't work LOL. At the end of Feb 1970 there were a total of 2,061 export S30's that had been produced. In addition to the Canadian cars, weren't there some RHD export cars produced by then too? Your Zhome.com site lists these production numbers for 1970: US 16,215 (91%); Canada 1,201 (7%); Australia 319 (2%). I calculated the percentages based on the total of those numbers. If we apply those percentages to the 2,061 export production total as of Feb 1970 that would be approximately: US 1,884; Canada 140; Australia 37. Based on those numbers, the delays I mentioned previously, and the actual sales dates shown below, it seems very unlikely that 2,000 cars would have been sold in the US by March 1970.

If you believe that the cars were delivered to the Dealers and sold in sequential serial number order - I can understand your doubts. If you believe that the Dealers actually let go of the first cars they received - and did not in fact retain them to show and demonstrate to build customer orders..then I guess you might be right.

No Carl, I don't believe that the cars were delivered to dealers and sold in sequential order, although with all the confusion about the "first boat load" of cars to the US and the "first car sold to the public" that I have seen posted I can understand why some people could think that.

I believe that all the cars were well mixed having been loaded/off loaded at the Ports, then shuffled around again as they were loaded onto trucks and trains for delivery to the Dealers. I believe that most Dealers retained some of the first cars as showroom displays and demo's - and only sold them after the supply became more steady. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if cars that arrived in Jan or Feb would have not been actually sold and delivered until April or May.

That is good to hear. Next time the "first car sold to the public" discussion comes up you can help dispel it.

I complied a list of 240Z production and sales dates from your public zhome.com original owners registry, public posts by owners, and sales/registration documents that I have seen. I am sure it is not as complete as the data you have in your private database, but it is the best I can do. If you want to post some numbers that would help support your claim that 2,000 or more 240Zs were sold in the US by March 1970 I would be interested in seeing it.

-Mike

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Edited by Mike B
corrected quote

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