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Let's show vintage racing pictures. I'll start.


conedodger

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In line

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In Line

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Off Line

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The Yellow car changed lines. It started following the  Daytona and the white car but then changed lines to  behind the Mustang.... all under braking.

Cold brakes or no brake pedal applied could have also factored but not keeping the line under braking seems to be the first error.

 

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19 hours ago, 240260280 said:

In line

In Line

Off Line

The Yellow car changed lines. It started following the  Daytona and the white car but then changed lines to  behind the Mustang.... all under braking.

Cold brakes or no brake pedal applied could have also factored but not keeping the line under braking seems to be the first error.

 

Yesterday you were talking about "lanes" (?!) and now you're talking about "lines".

The yellow Chevron moved from the left side of the track to the right side of the track - clearly to avoid an incident unfolding on the left - but he was also taking The Racing Line.

You've mentioned "under braking". Why was everyone braking there? Turn two is not a normal braking point, it is little more than a kink between turns 1 and 3. The reason they were braking there was - as I have pointed out - the incident still unfolding on their left with a dramatically slowing car emitting steam/smoke.

 

Key point in all this is - of course - that the Chevron was well ahead of the Z at all times. Morton simply drove into a reducing gap and hit the Chevron on its rear quarter.

Daytona track map.jpg

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That's a lot of energy over a typo.

The teams have radios and accident locations are nearly always are broadcast immediately.

The two cars in front held their line, most likely because they knew or anticipated 2 abreast going into that area (gathered from the 2 abreast since the start of the race).... and/or they checked their mirrors.  The yellow car changed lines going in to a turn braking.... that is not best practice. Especially when seated on the right w/o a blind spot.

 

 

Edited by 240260280
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34 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

The two cars in front held their line, most likely because they knew or anticipated 2 abreast going into that area (gathered from the 2 abreast since the start of the race).... and/or they checked their mirrors.  The yellow car changed lines going in to a turn braking.... that is not best practice. Especially when seated on the right w/o a blind spot.

Not for the first time are the two of us looking at the same thing but seeing differently. You're pointing at the yellow Chevron and accusing it of "changing lines going into a turn braking", but that's exactly what Morton did to the two 911s after the green flag. He simply outbrakes them going into turn one.

So you're pinning the blame 100% on Johnson in the yellow Chevron? Amazing.

Here's another pair of freeze frames. The first one shows cars ahead on the grass, and they are on the grass because they are taking avoiding action. Three abreast isn't going to work. 

The second shows the stricken green car on the left side of the track with the Cobra Daytona passing it. Morton has driven into the Chevron between the first car half-spinning off to the left infield and this stricken, slowing car ahead. If you want to talk about "best practice" I suggest attempting a pass into a rapidly reducing gap - with two cars ahead on the grass and a dangerously slowing car on the inside - might not be 'best practice', to put it mildly.

100% Morton's fault.

 

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I'm not blaming anyone. Perhaps as you suggested above, Morton may not have braked sufficiently  or he had cold brakes... however, going into that area, Morton's line followed the Mustang and the yellow car followed the Daytona.  In your last picture above, the yellow car is not behind the Daytona but between Morton and the Mustang. It changed lines...but the Daytona and white car did not.

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A comment was made about radios; no, they don't have radios necessarily.  This is vintage racing, not pro racing.  And John's brakes were not cold.  He just came out of turn one.  John drove into the back of Brian, plain and simple.

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29 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

In your last picture above, the yellow car is not behind the Daytona but between Morton and the Mustang.

That's because Morton had just driven into it! The clue is the fact that it is facing the wrong way and has a big chunk of its RH rear quarter missing...

None of your analysis seems to take the infield-spinning car and/or the slowing green car into account. I'll say it again, Morton is attempting an overly optimistic pass of the yellow Chevron in the middle of an unfolding incident where other cars are taking avoiding action. That's brain fade, not brake fade. 

I don't get your 'keep in line' comments. If everyone had to keep in line and/or stay parallel to other cars, what was the green flag for? They are in race mode, not formation lap mode, as proved by Morton passing at least four cars between the green flag and the middle of turn one whilst moving from the inside to the outside of the track. 

 

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On 12/18/2019 at 11:46 PM, HS30-H said:

That's because Morton had just driven into it! The clue is the fact that it is facing the wrong way and has a big chunk of its RH rear quarter missing...

None of your analysis seems to take the infield-spinning car and/or the slowing green car into account. I'll say it again, Morton is attempting an overly optimistic pass of the yellow Chevron in the middle of an unfolding incident where other cars are taking avoiding action. That's brain fade, not brake fade. 

I don't get your 'keep in line' comments. If everyone had to keep in line and/or stay parallel to other cars, what was the green flag for? They are in race mode, not formation lap mode, as proved by Morton passing at least four cars between the green flag and the middle of turn one whilst moving from the inside to the outside of the track. 

 

Your're just pissed because Morton passed a couple of P.orkers . What the Chevron was faced with is irrelevant, if you want to change your line then you give way, it's that simple. But if we have to get verbose then Morton had enough open track in front of him and was driving accordingly, it was the Chevron which without taking account of Morton created an inevitable collision situation. Morton was racing as he should have been, it's not up to him to observe everything that's going on and then try to anticipate what may or may not happen. You take care of what is relevant to you and get on with the job.

Racing is selfish, it's not like cruising in a road car where consideration of others is good.

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1 hour ago, 260DET said:

 it's not up to him to observe everything that's going on and then try to anticipate what may or may not happen. You take care of what is relevant to you and get on with the job.

Racing is selfish, it's not like cruising in a road car where consideration of others is good.

It IS very much up to EVERY racer to try to observe everything that is going on and try to anticipate what might happen.  This is not always possible as blind spots get in the way, lighting conditions may interfere, or following closely may block your vision.  This makes racing challenging and is part of the excitement .  Prudence can aide in your anticipation but too much results in one moving backwards in the field.  Remember too, however that this was a vintage race which requires more prudence than SCCA, NASA or pro racing etc.  To me this was a tough one to call.  I am not pointing any fingers as I‘ve made many mistakes on track, but to point squarely at the Chevron driver who was avoiding a slew of target threats during a volatile  situation might be a little judgmental.

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2 hours ago, 260DET said:

Your're just pissed because Morton passed a couple of P.orkers . What the Chevron was faced with is irrelevant, if you want to change your line then you give way, it's that simple. But if we have to get verbose then Morton had enough open track in front of him and was driving accordingly, it was the Chevron which without taking account of Morton created an inevitable collision situation. Morton was racing as he should have been, it's not up to him to observe everything that's going on and then try to anticipate what may or may not happen. You take care of what is relevant to you and get on with the job.

Racing is selfish, it's not like cruising in a road car where consideration of others is good.

I must say it's a real privilege to have the input of veteran racecar driver Crashy McCrashface on the thread. Slightly late to the start line (comfort break?) but at least you got here before everyone else went home.

However, all that 'contact with the barriers' over the years might just have degraded the old grey matter somewhat. Because this:

2 hours ago, 260DET said:

What the Chevron was faced with is irrelevant, if you want to change your line then you give way, it's that simple.

...doesn't quite match up with this:

2 hours ago, 260DET said:

Racing is selfish, it's not like cruising in a road car where consideration of others is good.

And this:

2 hours ago, 260DET said:

Morton was racing as he should have been, it's not up to him to observe everything that's going on and then try to anticipate what may or may not happen. You take care of what is relevant to you and get on with the job.

...doesn't seem to apply if you happen to be driving a yellow Chevron. LOL

 

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On 12/20/2019 at 6:02 PM, coop said:

It IS very much up to EVERY racer to try to observe everything that is going on and try to anticipate what might happen.  This is not always possible as blind spots get in the way, lighting conditions may interfere, or following closely may block your vision.  This makes racing challenging and is part of the excitement .  Prudence can aide in your anticipation but too much results in one moving backwards in the field.  Remember too, however that this was a vintage race which requires more prudence than SCCA, NASA or pro racing etc.  To me this was a tough one to call.  I am not pointing any fingers as I‘ve made many mistakes on track, but to point squarely at the Chevron driver who was avoiding a slew of target threats during a volatile  situation might be a little judgmental.

Obviously I'm referring to the situation at hand, I'm not here to lay down general rules so I stand by what I said. If every driver did "take care of what is relevant to you and get on with the job" then the situation here could well have had a better result. But what happened here began with a unthinking reflex response by one driver that escalated to involve Morton. Yet he is to blame?

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4 hours ago, 260DET said:

Obviously I'm referring to the situation at hand, I'm not here to lay down general rules so I stand by what I said. If every driver did "take care of what is relevant to you and get on with the job" then the situation here could well have had a better result. But what happened here began with a unthinking reflex response by one driver that escalated to involve Morton. Yet he is to blame?

You don't seem to have taken into account the significance of the incident(s) unfolding in turn one and beyond.

Something you apparently have in common with Mr Morton LOL

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On 12/27/2019 at 12:50 PM, 240260280 said:

Does anyone know when this photo was taken?

I'm guessing some time in early 1970?

 

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5th July 1970

Its Yasunori TOSHIMORI in his 432-R at the inaugural race for the Hokkaido Speedway circuit. He took a win in the GTS class. 

 

The Hokkaido Speedway circuit, located in Shiraoicho - not so far from Noboribetsu's famous onsens and within reasonable travelling distance of Sapporo - seemed like it might become the focus of racing activity for the island of Hokkaido when it opened in 1970. But sadly it was to close in late 1973 after some fatal accidents and legal wranglings, not helped by the 'Oil Shock'.   

Hokkaido Speedway circuit map.jpg

Edited by HS30-H
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