A 1970 Z car approaches $30 grand!

[Carl Beck]

Hello jtmader:

In five years the price you paid for the Z's you mention - will look like an absolute bargain. In addition to that, if you go shopping five years from now - you'd be looking for a year or more to find any for For Sale in like condition.

Some of the old saying prove true over time - "You can't pay too much for a really great car, nor too little for anything less."

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Mike B]

It looks like the sale did not go through on the car that started this thread. It is listed on eBay again. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-1970-DATSUN-240Z-ALL-ORIGINAL-W-49-089-MILES_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6187QQihZ020QQitemZ300254477293QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Not sure how accurate this line is "I AM CURRENTLY RESTORING THE SECOND 240Z EVER TITTLED IN THE WORLD ". I know he is referring to HLS30-00017, but that may not be the second 240Z ever titled in the world.

-Mike

[lonetreesteve]

I know myself as an owner of a 1972 VZ (actually 37 produced) and an early (vin # 238)mint condition '69 production 240Z that I expect the value of these vehicles will dramatically increase in the next 5 - 10 years. I paid big dollars for these 240's (in the $30K range) but was presented with an opportunity to own them and couldn't pass it up. I hope the values do go up (as I promised my wife!) but like all of us I just love these cars and going on those Sunday morning drives. Jeff Mader (1970 240Z, 1971 240Z, 1972 VZ and 1982 280ZX Turbo)

Hi Jeff,

Can you post some pics of your cars?

[Poindexter]

It looks like the sale did not go through on the car that started this thread. It is listed on eBay again. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-1970-DATSUN-240Z-ALL-ORIGINAL-W-49-089-MILES_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6187QQihZ020QQitemZ300254477293QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Not sure how accurate this line is "I AM CURRENTLY RESTORING THE SECOND 240Z EVER TITTLED IN THE WORLD ". I know he is referring to HLS30-00017, but that may not be the second 240Z ever titled in the world.

-Mike

My heart skipped a tiny beat when I saw it listed again. But there's no negative feedback given to the previous "bidder" who didn't complete the sale? I thought it sold last go-round. Must have been dreaming.

And I too am waiting to see some pictures from jtmader and AggieZ. I can't get enough looking at well-restored cars- or even valuable dis-assembled ones! It's part of my education, learning what makes for value in these cars.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Poindexter

[Tarmac]

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

Publilius Syrus - 100 BC

I guess that explains the difference between a $3k and a $30k Z-car

[Poindexter]

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

Publilius Syrus - 100 BC

I guess that explains the difference between a $3k and a $30k Z-car

Really? That's all? Too bad that's not the question anyone was asking. It's about what *specifically* causes the differences of a few thousand between cars- with all else being equal. :cross-eye

[Tarmac]

Really? That's all? Too bad that's not the question anyone was asking. It's about what *specifically* causes the differences of a few thousand between cars- with all else being equal. :cross-eye

2 equal cars. Identical. The difference in sale price is ether the buyer, or the salesman.

That said, the clean z-cars seem to go for more east of the Mississippi. Probably because the eastern cars rusted to pieces year ago.

The car listed in this thread is very nice, but no way will you get $19k, let alone $31K, here in Tucson.

[Poindexter]

2 equal cars. Identical. The difference in sale price is ether the buyer, or the salesman.

That said, the clean z-cars seem to go for more east of the Mississippi. Probably because the eastern cars rusted to pieces year ago.

The car listed in this thread is very nice, but no way will you get $19k, let alone $31K, here in Tucson.

I didn't make myself clear. My bad. First off, none of these cars for sale is mine, nor do I have any stake in anything other than that car in my sig.

The point I was endeavoring to investigate was the incremental value that a specific bit of work would add to a car. Much like "they" say you would get back, say, 80% of the cost of a pool were you to build one on your property, or 70% return on investment for a kitchen remodel.

All new proper zinc bolts in the engine compartment- cost $350 = increase in value of a car perhaps as much as $500, for example. I'm using made up numbers- as I have no idea of the true values.

Simply a basic ROI question. (Return on Investment) This of course leads to a better understanding of whole car values.

Why one car can be worth $19,000 in one place, and $23,000 in another is one example of a simpler line of inquiry.

More complicated - is it worth doing X work on a car if it will only yield 60% of X when you go to sell?

What work will return more than the average cost, leading to a "master list" of higher-priority work that should be performed and what should be avoided.

Another example- should I keep all of my old dingy engine bay bolts and hard fuel lines (yet 100% original from the factory floor) or should I replace them? How about hose clamps? How would that affect the value? I'd love to have nice clean parts up front- but not if it hurts the future value. I am kind of obsessed about keeping my current car as original as possible- or am I chasing my own tail, in that some things don't matter? I'd like to know that too. How does "original" affect values- in light of the old saying about how you can restore a car several times but it is original only once?

I am trying my best to get a handle on the Z market- now, to create a long-term pricing history, to get a better understanding on the ebbs and flows of Z car values over time- and what specifically affects them, because I can imagine making a very enjoyable "retirement" business of restoring Z cars one day in the future- if the numbers can be made to work out. As a former options and stock trader, I tend to look at markets precisely, mathematically, coming up with some sort of valuation equation for appreciating versus depreciating assets. Most tangible assets can be put into those 2 categories- a most basic requirement for any business. And I have such a plan for a dream garage, but only if it can be made to produce some kind of revenue to help pay for itself- at least a tiny bit.

These kinds of questions can be best answered most accurately by the core of very capable people populating this board who have a long and detailed experience in these cars. Many cars for many years. Their vast experience is priceless.

I hope this makes things much clearer.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Poindexter

[ljbryan]

To me I would rather have a restored car that looks like new, drives like new, etc. than have a non-restored car with 49000 miles on it. I need in the cars I drive for the car to be as perfect as possible, to look as good as it did new, as possible. Thats just me. I have looked for a long time to buy a like new, restored car, and I finally found it on e-bay last month.

Values of old desirable cars are very hard it seems to me to guage. Most of the Z cars I kept looking at had been modified a lot. Being original was important to me. I saw very few cars, like the one I bought, that had been finished to a very high level. I am not a mechanic so I needed to buy one that was finished. I found very few of these cars as I looked. Most were modified in someway, poorly painted, or were needing restoration in several areas.

The early Z's were such beautiful cars. I am surprised that more have not been restored like many of the mustangs and corvetts have been. I think that restored cars which are well taken care of will increase in value over the next few years. There are just not many of them for anyone to buy. I was really pleased to finally find my car. I hope to drive it and enjoy it for many years to come. See my album for pictures of my car.

Larry Bryan

[Poindexter]

*snip*

Values of old desirable cars are very hard it seems to me to guage. Most of the Z cars I kept looking at had been modified a lot. Being original was important to me. I saw very few cars, like the one I bought, that had been finished to a very high level. *snip*

The early Z's were such beautiful cars. *snip*

Larry Bryan

My point exactly! What if a particular car *was* finished to a very high level, but still was essentially all original?? I feel very strongly about these cars, and I just don't want to clean them up too much. I'd imagine that cars like that were in the rarest of all conditions. However they'll never drive like a modern car, and I don't want to try to make them do it. I drove a friend's fuelie Vette a few weeks ago, and it handled like crap around corners, but boy did it move out in the passing lane, yet it still had that cachet, it was historic in its own way. Just like when it came out. I wanted the same experience that a new driver felt, bias ply tires and all. Sloppy suspension, higher-profile tires and all. I didn't want to modernize it and lose the original experience. To another car with many imperfections, that had no resemblance of the stock car, that one I would tear apart and put back together looking and working better than new. You get the difference in my mind? I wouldn't want to do that to a car that was still in great enough shape- that's the slim difference I'm pointing to. Cars in great yet unrestored condition a very rare commodity these days, and one I wouldn't want to change.

But seriously, how ever you choose to experience your car and other cars too.... in fact, how each person confronts the whole car culture, is IMHO so unique- which is precisely the subjective portion of valuation.

To me, finding an older car, still in great shape, unrestored, close to showroom condition, with no modifications (except perhaps for safety's sake) and of course having been driven- and well- for the better part of 40 years is what attracts me. Not a Show Car. A real driver! Strong, quick and agile, something you can put your foot into, and feels the g's in a corner, clip a few apexes on the way to the store, fling it around a bit, maybe take the long way- every day maybe- just to enjoy driving on a particular road. I consider myself very lucky to live near one of these, a damn-near magical stretch 6 miles long. I can't even imagine what it would be like to live near a classic drive like "Tail of the Dragon", some place world famous. Although that has its drawbacks too I'm sure.

I also bet we all have a lot of friends who think we're nuts over these cars, from owners with the slightest involvement in their cars- but enough to post here, to the people who actually make their living from Z cars, in one way or another. A lot of those people, especially those that sneer down their nose at what they can only see as "old cars" just seem to be missing the point. To them any time spent on cars is time wasted. Maybe it's a willingness to "get your hands dirty" kind of thing. On the other end of the spectrum are the few that have restored or "refreshed" their cars to amazing standards, taking years and hundreds of hours of work. There are quite a few of those on here.

Your car, Larry, is sweet too. Clean, straight and if she drives like she looks you're a lucky guy.

So when I see a beautifully restored classic car- like I see on here, or almost weekly at my local Cruise-In nights, I'm jealous in a way. I'll attach a few pix of some of the beauties I see all the time, and wish I owned too. I'd like to have something so clean, yet so original in appearance, with everything working and performing perfectly, and no bangs, clunks or wheezing. But there's still something special about a car who gets driven quite often, takes a few knocks and scrapes, yet ends up in front of you essentially unchanged, like a time capsule: no mods, no new paint, the same old chrome, the same weathered seats, oils smears under the hood from the 70's. Perhaps it's my way of being a cheapskate and not restoring her. Or maybe I just like these cars most with all of their years over them, not too perfect. It's definitely a special category, because- as we well know, hokey as it may sound- you can restore a car many times, but it's original only once.

So look at the pictures below. Sweet cars. I'd love to have any one of them. Probably the same nice cars at similar cruise-in nights in every state (and province!)

Then think again how you would feel if I told you one of them was original and unrestored! Wow. The license plate of that 60 Jaguar sums it up pretty well I think.

BTW, I'm proud to say that the last 2 are of my car, with 38 year old paint, old bumpers and various knocks and dings... and almost as nice everywhere else that you'll you look.

Edited September 9, 2008 by Poindexter

[skunkbud280Z]

If the owners dry this market up a little bit then the prices will rise. I agree, they go too cheaply, so stop selling them that way!

If I had a '70 240Z in mint condition, either someone would be paying me $35-40k or someone wouldn't be buying my Z.

Put another way, part of working the market is passive. That is, we get the accepted "values" for things from the aggregate market forces we are slave to, and concede to them in our buys and our sells. This is observed by nearly everyone as is evident by reading the replies in this thread. The other part, and this part is often completely overlooked by everybody, is active. If all of you (us) Z fanatics could collectively agree to bloat the prices of these cars together (by stubbornly refusing to sell them for reduced prices, buying them for higher prices, et al), the net result would be a market that completely dries up. A dried up market with no Z cars for sale is going to jack the demand and as everyone with some economics under their belt knows, demand is the prime mover of price. Making the market "want" the Z car more is a job that many of you Z owners oversee, whether you knew it or not.

There are less "legal" ways of driving prices higher that I won't get into here. They would involve an absolute trust between Z owners that would be impossible to instill through simple rhetoric on a message board. But in theory...there are ways....

Edited October 1, 2008 by skunkbud280Z

[grnsky]

Good point Sblake,

Will create another thread.

Edited August 24, 2010 by grnsky
create new thread.