Unusual Kenmeri QLD

[khughes]

hmm.. Ray is not in Japan right now... i saw him today... at least i think i did...

[g72s20]

EKW had an S20? Did they even know what it was? How much was it sold for?

Did someone score a bargain, or did they have to sell a kidney? Is that the S20 you have Alan?

So Ray's selling the C110 with the RB20 (with the fake dizzy) and putting an S20 in an S54? Seems like and odd character this Ray fella.

Speaking of S54's anybody hear on the grapevine what happened to the 2 that were for sale in Tassie.

Hmmm, S20 replica cam cover that bolts onto an RB20/25.......

Yep!!

I remember the add in "AutoAction" around 1986-87 when it was in broadsheet format. The EKW ad was a full page and amongst the engines was the S20. From memory was either $6000 or $8000 ...not sure anymore. I can remember the frustration of knowing(even then!) how hard to come by it was, and the impossibility of affording it anyway:cry:

Funnily enough, at the time I had one Nissan Skyline GT-B S54Be-3 and one Prince Skyline GT-B S54Be2. The Be2 had the motor out at the time, and ignorance being bliss I thought" Yeah!! A Prince GT with a real twincam, that's what I'll do!! maybe mum'l lend me the moneyLOL Ahh well, considering it's home today I'd say it worked out well:classic:

Here is the Email from EKW;

[I]Thanks for the interest.Jim

The motor was sold to an enthusiast from England in the late 80's early ninties.

The motor had been sitting a while and had actually siezed.

The customer rang from England and then got a mate of his to fly from Perth to Melbourne to check it out for him.

After his mate confirmed the engine was what it was he agreed to pay $8000 for it (seized)

I remember preparing it for shipment to England.

At a guess I would assume the one you have mentioned being restored in England is one and the same.

Good luck with your car

Just as an uside. I think this motor came from a 200Z / 240Z. The early model Z (the performace model) had a different front on them (we called it a frog front and it looked similar to a E type Jag.

We actually brought 2 of these fronts out (front being just the bolt on panels.) The first we sold not long after it arrived while the 2nd came in with the motor in question.

We had the 2nd one stored for years but after we sold the motor we sold it to a guy with a show car who we believed later shipped it to Malta of all places.
[/I]




REGARDS

Ray Broughton

E.K.W. GROUP OF  AUTO PARTS RECYLERS

[HS30-H]

EKW had an S20? Did they even know what it was? How much was it sold for?

Did someone score a bargain, or did they have to sell a kidney? Is that the S20 you have Alan?

Mr C,

Yes, that's the one that ended up with me - but I bought it here in the UK from the people that bought it from EKW all those years ago. See story below.

g72s20,

I think Ray Broughton's recollections are a good example of why we sometimes need to take a pinch of salt with the stories we get given. They don't entirely match up with the side of the story that I got, and it is fairly clear that he doesn't really understand the model of car that engine originally came from, and that he might be confused about the status of the engine when it arrived in Australia from Japan. I reckon it is fairly clear that it wasn't installed in a car when they got it, and that it had been removed from a car in Japan and sent to Australia as just an engine and trans.

The story I got ( and I have little reason to doubt ) was from Paul of Fourways Engineering here in the UK. Paul's mother lives in Australia, and on this particular trip to visit his mother he also planned to buy some used parts from companies such as EKW to ship back to the UK for Fourways' business use ( used Z parts at that time being both cheap and relatively plentiful in Australia, as well as usually in better condition than our rusty English junk.......... ). Paul visited EKW and rounded up a bunch of stuff to ship back. He spotted the S20 engine on a pallet and was told that it had been brought in from Japan with a batch of used engines that were purchased from a dismantler in Japan. Paul called his boss Geoff back at Fourways, and told him about the S20 ( and asked him whether it would be worth purchasing ), the result being that he got the green light and he added the S20 to the other stuff he had bought, and shipped it all to the UK. After it arrived in the UK they never really got around to using it for anything, and it sat dormant literally for years. I spotted it in Fourways' storage barn some years back and asked for first refusal should it ever come up for sale. Eventually I did get that first refusal ( Geoff kept his word ) and I brought it home, but without the transmission - which had disappeared somewhere into the big spares mountains at Fourways. I sourced a proper 'A' type five speed with the correct S20-type bellhousing from Japan ( at no small expense! ) only for the original trans to turn up out of the blue at Fourways when they were having a clear up. Just my luck, but at least I have a spare.

The engine and trans had all the hallmarks of being removed from the car in the Japanese dismantlers - most likely from a crashed car judging from the witness marks of impact damage on the offside of the engine. The harness wires, exhaust and fuel lines had been cut through, and all fluids had been drained. A label tucked into the exhaust tube gave a clue to the Japanese dismantler too. Manufacturing date of the engine block ( 2nd November 1969 ) and the engine block number itself gave a clue to the likely manufacturing date of the 432 that it was originally fitted to; clearly a pretty early build - and I find it a fascinating 'what if' to think that the original car might have been possible to repair, but was likely considered uneconomical at their market value in the Eighties. What a shame.

I can't imagine that EKW took this engine out of a car themselves ( the evidence I see and hear makes this seem very unlikely ) and indeed they don't appear to really understand what model the engine type was found in. They seem to be thinking of ZGs rather than 432s, and if this engine and trans was actually in a car that they sold separately then why would they have effectively 'chopped' it out so roughly? The story doesn't stack up. Maybe that's just due to the amount of years ago that all this happened?

Anyway, after a long process and steep learning curve the engine is almost completely rebuilt now ( just have to reunite the head with the rest of the assembly ). Internally it was in reasonably good order, with no evidence of seizure; the bent distributor shaft was what was stopping it from turning freely, and I reckon this might have been a legacy of the crash that I suspect caused the engine to be taken from the original car. It looks to have been fairly low mileage, but there was a lot of evidence of poor state of tune in the form of severe carbon deposits. All waterways were in excellent condition with no corrosion of the aluminium or iron, but the waterpump body was cracked and the impeller shaft bent ( more crash damage? ). Alternator was smashed ( and early Mitsubishi unit that I wanted to save - but it is sadly fecked ). Crank pulley was also damaged by a big single impact, and needed replacement. I have also replaced the distributor due to its damage.

Some parts have been easy to source, and some more difficult - but they have all been too expensive for my liking!

I'll take some more photos of it soon to update the rebuild stages in the Gallery.

Alan T.

[g72s20]

WOW!...What a great story so far, 20+ years on and still intrigueing:bunny: Thanks HS30-H,

Your observation of Mr Broughtons scant knowledge of the origin of the bits he was getting from Japan became obvious to me also. I did attempt to explain to him the significance of the various parts, including pictures and references but all too late I think.

I don't believe he meant to infer they removed the engine, rather it arrived with the second G nose? I did have a phone conversation with him as well so my take on this may have had a bit more input than the email alone.

I would love to read see more of the progress of all aspects of the Z432 project.

[aarc240]

Well, I finally got to revisit the gent who told me that cars were sequentially numbered.

Bear in mind he is now close to 80 and was a mature individual and Datsun dealer when he visited the Nissan works on a number of occasions in the late 60's and onwards. He is also still a very active, intelligent and lucid individual.

I let him read through a printout of this forum topic without making any comment to see what his opinion/reaction would be.

Aside from going red, spluttering some unprintable expletives and very pointed remarks about smartasses who hadn't climbed out of short pants when these cars were being built, he was actually very interested.

Anyway, after letting him calm down I got a better idea of the production methods used by Nissan.

Yep, I got it wrong that a GC110 could follow a KHGC110!

Nissan actually had three seperate 'lines' for C110 cars, one for K code hardtops, one for sedans and a completely seperate 'line' for GT-R's.

Export market cars were actually built on the same 'line' as domestic cars in batch runs.

So, all K codes received sequential numbers, all sedans a seperate sequential number series and the GT-R had its own series.

As Nissan were yet to start recording on the Car Identification Plate even what transmission was fitted to a car, the above recollections are very likely to be correct.

The main point is that a GT-R was effectively an individually handbuilt car.

The likelyhood of a GT-R receiving such a high serial number as this exanple carries and that number being recorded on the Car Identification Plate or stamped into the firewall is virtually non-existant.

Something he also pointed out as being a complete misrepresentation of the facts was the use of the term VIN or 'Vehicle Identification Number' in association with cars of that era.

I have since been able to obtain the exact wording used by Nissan at the time (direct from Nissan) and I quote:

"IDENTIFICATION NUMBERS

The car and unit numbers are stamped and registered at the factory.

The car and engine identification numbers are used on legal documents.

These numbers are used for factory communication such as Technical Report, Warranty Claim, Service Journal and other information.

CAR IDENTIFICATION PLATE

The plate contains the car type, engine capacity, maximum horsepower, wheelbase and engine and car serial numbers."

A true VIN actually identifies a lot more and is a whole different and messy ball of string.

Nissan did also confirm that there was another P engine code used on C110 cars - for the G18 engine of all things! Further, they stated that engine would not have been used in a K code chassis anyway as there was never a short wheelbase K code.

So there were TWO P code engines!

A PC110 is a short wheelbase sedan with a G18, a KPGC110 a GT-R hardtop with an S20 and a PGC110 a GT-R sedan with an S20 (if they ever built any).

And someone wants to imply that the factory only ever did sensible things??

As for sourcing an S20 to go into an S54 chassis, I don't even want to think about the idea of an S20 in an early Prince!! Ugggh.

Art C.

[aarc240]

Further to the last post (and I had to phone him when the thought occured to me).

The short wheelbase sedans and wagons in the C110 series were built in a seperate facility.

[HS30-H]

Aside from going red, spluttering some unprintable expletives and very pointed remarks about smartasses who hadn't climbed out of short pants when these cars were being built, he was actually very interested.

Well, if one of these "smartasses" got something wrong I invite you to correct it on this thread. Here's your opportunity to put down some good information to be brought up in future by users of the SEARCH function. But be careful, as you might get somebody labelling you a "smartass" too..........

Nissan actually had three seperate 'lines' for C110 cars, one for K code hardtops, one for sedans and a completely seperate 'line' for GT-R's.

Export market cars were actually built on the same 'line' as domestic cars in batch runs.

So, all K codes received sequential numbers, all sedans a seperate sequential number series and the GT-R had its own series.

Hold on, I think it was a little bit more complicated than that. This talk of "lines" is a little misleading, and I don't see what the number of "lines" had to do with the number of body serial number sequences ( ?? ). As mentioned before, each distinct prefix type had its own body serial number sequence. Are you saying that - for example - the KC110, KPC110 and KGC110 models all shared a body serial number sequence ( "So, all K codes received sequential numbers......" )? I'm sorry, but I do not think for one minute that this is correct. Perhaps you misunderstood? The production figures and body serial number sequences published by the Japanese motor vehicle ministry show that it is not the case.

The main point is that a GT-R was effectively an individually handbuilt car. The likelyhood of a GT-R receiving such a high serial number as this exanple carries and that number being recorded on the Car Identification Plate or stamped into the firewall is virtually non-existant.

That we can agree on. But it is not news is it? The PGC10, KPGC10 and KPGC110 models are such a specialised and well documented subject that the body serial number sequences are common knowledge amongst enthusiasts. You are only 'confirming' a fact that you were effectively disagreeing with earlier in this thread.

Something he also pointed out as being a complete misrepresentation of the facts was the use of the term VIN or 'Vehicle Identification Number' in association with cars of that era.

I have since been able to obtain the exact wording used by Nissan at the time (direct from Nissan) and I quote:

"IDENTIFICATION NUMBERS

The car and unit numbers are stamped and registered at the factory.

The car and engine identification numbers are used on legal documents.

These numbers are used for factory communication such as Technical Report, Warranty Claim, Service Journal and other information.

CAR IDENTIFICATION PLATE

The plate contains the car type, engine capacity, maximum horsepower, wheelbase and engine and car serial numbers."

A true VIN actually identifies a lot more and is a whole different and messy ball of string.

,

That's all straight from the C110 series export model factory service manual! Have you only just noticed it?

Some of us are very well aware that the term "VIN" ( Vehicle Identification Number ) is a more modern term, and that the 'VIN' on modern cars contains far more information than that seen on the cars of the period we are discussing here. But the reason we use the term 'VIN' is just for convenience sake ( so that everyone knows what we are talking about ). You only have to turn to the first few pages of a factory service manual to see the 'Model Variation' list, and the meanings of the prefixes and suffixes. The fact that the suffixes hold a lot of information on the model variant, and yet were never attached to the car, is unfortunately seldom acknowledged on forums like this.

If I start using the real terms that Nissan ( a Japanese company! ) used in the period, namely 'Katashiki' and "Shadai Bango", wouldn't that just confuse you a little more, and give you even more reason to label me a "smartass"? That's why we use the colloquial vernacular of 'VIN' etc.

Nissan did also confirm that there was another P engine code used on C110 cars - for the G18 engine of all things! Further, they stated that engine would not have been used in a K code chassis anyway as there was never a short wheelbase K code. So there were TWO P code engines!

I'm tempted to welcome you once again to the 'Model Variation' page of the C110 export model factory service manual ( welcome! ) as you don't appear to have noticed it before. Heaven only knows what kind of euphoric epiphany you will experience should you see the Japanese home market model variation page. Maybe you ought to sit down before looking at it?

.......and a PGC110 a GT-R sedan with an S20 (if they ever built any).

No, I don't believe they ever built any. Unless you know better?

And someone wants to imply that the factory only ever did sensible things??

I think it is well known that the factory ( factories ) occasionally did things we find difficult to get our heads around, but we are standing on the outside and we - essentially - have no God-given right to all of the information that might make things a little clearer. We are often reduced to the level of archaeologists trying to decipher the Rosetta Stone. That's just the way it is. Personally I find it fascinating. The weakest links in the chain ( the ones that are often seen to be the least 'sensible' ) are ourselves - the amateur enthusiasts.

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Nissan did also confirm that there was another P engine code used on C110 cars - for the G18 engine of all things! Further, they stated that engine would not have been used in a K code chassis anyway as there was never a short wheelbase K code.

Apart from the 'KPC110' of course. Maybe you should ask your source at Nissan about that, as they would seem to have forgotten it?

The existence of this model would also appear to blow your following statement out of the water:

So, all K codes received sequential numbers..............

See chart of K-prefix C10 model types below. Not C110 series admittedly ( I don't have the C110 chart to hand, but somebody else participating in this thread does - so hopefully they will pipe up ) but it does at least illustrate the fact that the KPC10 and KGC10 ( and the KPGC10 - but we already knew that ) had their own different body serial number sequences. The C110 series followed suit, I'm sure.

Alan T.

[Mr Camouflage]

Yes, I type "VIN", because its easier than typing "Chassis number".

[g72s20]

Seen a few references to this model, but have no real idea of its significance.

Reference is "Skyline. World Car Guide 25" NEKO Publishing

[HS30-H]

'GC10-TK' was the four door version of the GT-X, introduced in March 1973. A last-gasp sales push before the introduction of the new C110 series later in the year.

The 'TK' suffix is not seen anywhere on the car - only on the paperwork accompanying it.

g72s20, your car is a 'KGC10-TK' ( two door GT-X ) I believe?

[aarc240]

'GC10-TK' was the four door version of the GT-X, introduced in March 1973. A last-gasp sales push before the introduction of the new C110 series later in the year.

Does that refer to introduction of the four door version of the C110 only?