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gotta sell my 69 fairlady

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    People seem to think that because we are discussing this now (in 2005) that the desire for things like a 5 speed wasn't known at the time the 240Z arrived on these shores. That's not the case. It was often discussed in trade magazines, and at race events by enthusiasts as well. Also, I wonder what was the percentage of Manual Transmission equipped 240Z's v.s Automatic Transmission equipped 240Z's? 50/50? 60/40? 70/30? Maybe 40/60? (I don't think so, but I really don't know) You sure don't find many of them (Auto Trans Z's) around these days. The Auto trans seemed to be more accepted in the 280Z, 2+2, and ZX models.

    I must point out that the 240Z was/is a 2 Seat Sports car, not a 4 Seat Muscle car (like the the Ford Galaxie 500's, the Plymouth Fury/Road Runner/Barracuda, the Dodge Charger/Challenger, the Oldsmobile Cutlass/442, the Chevrolet Impala/Nova. or the Rustang. The Z was smaller and weighed far less than the cars previously mentioned and seated only 2. The Z cars competed directly against the European Sports cars imported to North America, and indirectly against a few of the smaller American car's (but the Corvair was gone about the time the Z car first arrived). The Z was not marketed as a family car, or Muscle car. It was a Sports/GT, and a 2 Seater at that. Apples and Oranges IMO. It carved out it's own niche in the market largely from Baby Boomers who were coming of age, had no children, and wanted something exciting and different. They were disatisfied with the quality and style and range of products from Detroit. A lot of us (in that demographic) already had manual trans equipped cars and considered them desirable.

    I don't really think that tarriffs had much to do with the ability of Japanese auto imports to compete in North America. The way I recall the situation, Nissan shipped as many Z cars as they could manufacture to the USA. They were (no doubt) manufactured to a certain price point, but that point did not seem to be a hinderance to the marketplace. No threat to the "Big Three" was perceived at that time by anyone (least of all the Big Three themselves). No threat was recognized for some time, (around the mid to late 70's AIR) well after the 240Z had established it's (and Nissan's) presence in the North American marketplace. Even then tariffs didn't stop (or slow) imports, the threat of tariffs was used as a wedge to "encourage" Nissan, Toyota, and Honda establish plants in the US but that's about it.

    Another interesting point is that about the time Mr. K left the USA was when the Z cars began to morph into larger, more cushy "American" styled cars.

    I do agree with the statement that......."When you're selling an item with a 6 month wait, you can literally produce what you want and the demand will snap it up." No doubt about that. I believe that this is what kept the Z car from being offered with upgraded equipment more than anything else.

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    Carl S wrote:

    >People seem to think that because we are discussing this now (in

    >2005) that the desire for things like a 5 speed wasn't known at the

    >time the 240Z arrived on these shores. That's not the case. It was

    >often discussed in trade magazines, and at race events by

    >enthusiasts as well. Also, I wonder what was the percentage of

    >Manual Transmission equipped 240Z's v.s Automatic Transmission

    >equipped 240Z's? 50/50? 60/40? 70/30? Maybe 40/60? (I don't think

    >so, but I really don't know) You sure don't find many of them (Auto

    >Trans Z's) around these days. The Auto trans seemed to be more

    >accepted in the 280Z, 2+2, and ZX models.

    Hello Carl.

    You are of course correct, there were enthusiasts that wanted a 5spd. and of course, finding nothing else wrong with the 240-Z the automotive magazines writers did have to say something negative (just to appear balanced). Although I thought that the cheap diamond patterned vinyl provided them with something negative to say ;)

    If the enthusiast wanted a 5spd. he had only to tell his Dealer. It was easily ordered through the Parts Dept. and easily installed by the Service Dept. A brand new 5spd. cost $375.00 in 1970/73. (of course you could change the gear sets as well). If you were poor.. you went to the junkyard and got one out of the 2000 roadster, then purchased the parts necessary to convert it to the Z from Datsun Competition and installed it yourself.) I know several of people that did that.... most simply changed the rear gear.

    Nonetheless the 240-Z really was aimed at a far larger market as you suggest. The 240Z was by design a "Sports/GT", not a pure "Sports Car" in the more British sense of the term. Nor was it strictly a "Grand Touring Car"... It was by design a well balanced combination of the two, that was intended to have far broader appeal than either individually.

    The 240-Z was aimed at putting traditionally American "non sports car buyers".. into their first Sports/GT. Mr. K didn't want to just capture market share in the Sports Car market.. he really wanted to greatly expand the market, to include new buyers. Mr. K wanted to sell Sports/GT's to people that had never bought them before.

    Most Americans didn't buy the traditional Sports Cars because they were for the most part underpowered, harsh riding and cramped. Coming from Great Britain, Italy and Germany they did not enjoy a reputation for quality nor reliability. They were all but strictly "enthusiast's" cars.

    The 240-Z was also aimed at gaining market share in the "Second Family Car" market here in the US. Much the same as many compact cars were at the time from the Big Three. You didn't "Sell" the "compacts" from Ford, GM, Chrysler as "Family Cars" (at least that was not how they trained you to sell them) ... you sold them as Second cars for the family. Believe me, I sold a ton of 240-Z's rationalized as the perfect second car for the family.. The 240-Z offered more "utility" than any mere sports car of the era.. and as much utility as a Pinto or Vega (hatch backs).. 95% of their time driving, Mom or Dad were in the car by themselves anyway, so a two passenger car made perfect sense as a second car. (please sign right here ...).

    Features and the benefits of them, had to be rationalized in the buyers mind, before they would sign on the dotted line... The 240-Z was loaded with features and benefits that made it easy to rationalize as the second family car. (a side benefit was it was COOL... and BEAUTIFUL...a more Positive Image for the driver and it offered Datsun reliability)

    Since I sold these cars for a couple years.. I can only tell you about our Customers... Most (75% or more) had never even considered buying a "Sports Car" before they saw the 240-Z.. they simply liked the looks of the 240-Z and it was in the price range of other cars they were looking at. Of our 151 Z Car Original Owners... only about 32 of them had owned a Sports Car before...

    The Z was everything the traditional sports car weren't. The Z was roomy, rode well on it's fully independent suspension, was powerful and smooth, and it had Datsun's reputation for reliability.

    We received maybe one out of 20 240-Z's with A/T... I don't know if that was typical or not. But it seemed to be. A few people simply had spouses that refused to drive a stick shift... so the compromise was the Z with an A/T. I do not recall any of my customers wishing for a 5spd. (some of the people I raced or autoX'ed with did).

    Carl S wrote:

    >It carved out it's own niche in the market largely from Baby Boomers who were

    >coming of age, had no children, and wanted something exciting and different.

    >They were disatisfied with the quality and style and range of products from

    >Detroit. A lot of us (in that demographic) already had manual trans equipped

    >cars and considered them desirable.

    In a general sense I'd agree that the Baby Boomers were an important segment. More so for the influence they had on their parents. However, by it's original definition the Baby Boomers were born between 1948 and 1956..Now it seems to be defined as 1946 to 1962.. In 1970 the oldest Baby Boomer was 24 and not quite yet out of College.. or just out looking for a first job. They were also just the tip of the iceberg for the huge swelling of the population to follow. From 1970 to 1973 they really weren't that large a segment of the buyers.

    Most of the people that I sold 240-Z's too were between the ages of 28 to 38. Most(when I say most here I mean at least 80%) were married, most had at least one child. The vast majority had above average incomes, in the professions or trades (school teachers, engineers, architects, carpenters, draftsmen, contractors, small business owners etc.). I was 25 at the time, and I can tell you that I sold very few 240-Z's to people my age. Most people my age were buying 510's, 1200's and Pick-up's. (all below $2,500.00).

    For the most part my buyers were simply looking for something "special" to reward themselves with, while still making a rational purchase. I'd say that 95+% of them never raced, never auto-crossed, never used their Z as a "Sports Car". (just as 95+% of SUV never leave the paved highways).

    I would certainly agree that they were dissatisfied with the offering from Detroit at the time and they were looking for something "different".

    Carl S wrote:

    >I don't really think that tarriffs had much to do with the ability of Japanese

    >auto imports to compete in North America."

    You are correct. In 1970/73 there were no tariffs on Japanese automobiles coming into the US. Protective tariffs were common in Europe, carried over from the reconstruction after WW-II. A tariff was later placed on "commercial vehicles".. which caught the Pick-up (so they were simply shipped without their bed, then "assembled in the USA")

    Carl S wrote:

    >Another interesting point is that about the time Mr. K left the USA was when

    >the Z cars began to morph into larger, more cushy "American" styled cars.

    Actually, the same process of market research that lead to the 240-Z for the US, also lead to the 280ZX for the US. While you and I didn't like it as much... the 280ZX sat new sales records. The Z evolved with the generation of people that originally purchased it. As they got older, the feedback they gave Nissan was that they wanted more luxury (power windows, power steering, cruise and GOOD A/C)... The mistake that Nissan made was not coming to market with another car that the younger generation wanted... to keep them in the Datsun/Nissan fold. Of course the other mistake was to change the Brand Name at the same time... da....

    I personally believe that if Mr. K had stayed in the US, those major mistakes would not have been made by Nissan.

    Carl S wrote:

    >I do agree with the statement that......."When you're selling an item with a 6

    >month wait, you can literally produce what you want and the demand will snap it >up."

    I'd phrase that somewhat differently to reflect the actual situation. "When you're selling an item with a 6 month wait, you ARE producing what the customers want.. don't screw with it!! ;)

    anyway, just my perspectives...

    kind regards,

    Carl B.

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    ...Regarding the numbers of cars based on reported serial numbers.

    Were these ACTUAL production figures or were they based on the projection of serial numbers to be assigned to that model type / class?

    As shown at Zhome.com, there are instances where the last "production number" reported exceeds and sometimes overlaps onto the next series of numbers. Conversely, there are instances where the serial numbers seem to far outweigh what has been shown to be the case. N.B.: The "first" 500 Z's were 1969.... but apparently there are no records nor reports of the extremely low serial numbers, which gives #26 and 27 added import.

    Hi Enrique,

    Since nobody else ( as far as I am aware ) has posted any serial / VIN number information on this thread apart from me, I presume you are referring to the figures that I posted - which relate to Japanese market models declared manufactured in 1969. Correct?

    I posted production figures supplied directly by Nissan Shatai ( the people that made the things ) and also Japanese government ministry records which show the VIN numbers of cars declared manufactured during the 1969. All of the numbers I posted are for JAPANESE market cars, as one of the first posts on this thread quoted "300" cars manufactured for the Japanese market during the 1969 calendar year - which was clearly wrong.

    Compare these figures to what you see on 'zhome.com' regarding the "first 500" at your leisure. I don't recall seeing ANY mention of the 1969 S30 and S30-S models on that site, and one would be forgiven for imagining that they did not even exist. The irony of seeing Carl Beck posting on this thread - completely ignoring the subject under discussion in the title of the thread, surprise surprise - was not lost on me. Gave me a wry smile, actually. But nevertheless, here is a 1969-build Fairlady being very relevant - in its own thread - and providing interesting conversational matter......

    As far as I am aware, zhome.com does not show any information on production quantities provided by Nissan Shatai, or from any Japanese government ministry ( I wonder if a Japanese ministry would have VIN number records for exported cars? ). It seems that the information on the "first 500" ( that's a nice round figure isn't it? ) HLS30-U models on zhome.com is compiled mainly from US-based sources, and somewhat anecdotally to boot. As a guide to what was received in the USA and Canada it may very well be a good source, but what was actually made in Japan could be another thing entirely.

    Regarding the figures from Nissan Shatai - these are the quantities that Nissan Shatai recorded that they manufactured. We don't have any 100% reliable information that indicates whether all of these cars were assigned a VIN number, or which of them actually made it into the ownership of a private individual ( although Kats has had a very valiant stab at deciphering the numbers for the "Export" cars quoted ).

    As for the 'Shatai Bango, Ichi Ran Hyo' figures submitted to the Japanese ministry by 'Nihon Jidosha Kogyo Kai', these relate to VIN numbers assigned to Japanese market vehicles, broken down by VIN prefix type and year of manufacture. Pull them apart at your leisure. As I pointed out when I posted them, they don't completely correspond with the Nissan Shatai figures but they DO purport to list actual VIN numbers stamped onto car bodies. They are better than nothing, and I think the 'truth' ( whatever that is ) probably lies in how the figures are deciphered and what is counted ( and not counted ) in the Nissan Shatai figures.

    If you want to argue that the figures I have posted could be incorrect, then you are welcome to make that observation. However, this thread was started in reference to the car wearing VIN number S30-00144 which is CERTAINLY one of more than 900 'S30' VIN prefixed cars to have been manufactured before the end of 1969, and was almost certainly manufactured during November of that year.

    Alan T.

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    Alan:

    Yes I was referring to the information you gave, not to question nor impugn it's validity, but so that a better clarification could be read and...in essence....stored for future reference within the same environment as it was discussed in....this forum.

    As you have sometimes pointed out, a large segment of the information available on the internet with regards to the Z, is truncated, non-verifiable, and sadly incomplete where it isn't conjecture. While it's easy to cast off the validity of Zhome due to inaccuracies that have been pointed out (the first 500), a point needs to be made that it gained it's reputation for being a fountain of knowledge because people passed it on as a reference for the material....BECAUSE THERE WERE NO OTHER SOURCES.

    As we have these "discussions", let's clarify to enhance the information available and try to maintain a better standard of information.

    In my opinion, your post is exactly what I enjoy about these discussions. It is informative, the information presented is self-supporting and what is more, is verifiable with the level of information given. That is what I think you would like Zhome to have, unfortunately not everyone has access to the data as you've had due to your job. (Wanna discuss Doors? That's what I sell.) So your reply was perfect!

    The only reason I commented was that at a manufacturing company I worked at years ago, the ONLY serial numbers assigned to ANY of the valves manufactured were given to those that were SHIPPED. Internal test, use or .... were not serialized at all. In the initial run-up of a valve specification, it wouldn't be unusual to see the first 100 or more, go to testing. These weren't serialized, except for the internal control marks. If we had serialized each one, the first one out the door might have had number 1234. In those situations, sometimes in the change over, (as the model valve was being superseeded) you would still have orders in house (being manufactured) for the model that was being replaced. Rather than count up the total of orders in house, orders in process, and orders being expected from existing quotes, a "range" of numbers would be tacked onto the "end" of the serial number.

    Simply put, we'd be up to number 4,567, and at a rough guess we could expect no more than 400 future valves to ship, so we'd "pad" the number to 5100, i.e. over 100 MORE than the actual run.

    We were interested in knowing approximately how many of those valves were out there so that we could supply replacement parts before we could rely on that model valve being gone from use and no longer require the spare parts inventory. The serial number gave us the product make-up based on when in the total manufacturing process it was made. Remember, as they went OUT the door they were serialized and not till then.

    I don't know the method by which Datsun measured their numbers. Since it involved automobiles, I presumed that their record controls would be much more stringent than ours were. As a result, when the numbers were "fuzzy", and based on my breadth of experience, I questioned whether they were production or posted (shipped, in my old job).

    Your post helps clarify that.

    Enrique

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    >Alan wrote:

    >Hi Enrique,

    >Since nobody else ( as far as I am aware ) has posted any serial / VIN number

    >information on this thread apart from me, I presume you are referring to the

    >figures that I posted - which relate to Japanese market models declared manufactured

    >in 1969. Correct?

    >

    >I posted production figures supplied directly by Nissan Shatai ( the people that made

    >the things )

    Hello Alan:

    Is what you supplied, related to the production numbers supplied by Nissan Shatai, something different than the picture of the Production Schedule supplied to Kats, and which he published on this forum in an earlier discussion? Did Nissan Shatai supply different information directly to you?

    >and also Japanese government ministry records which show the VIN numbers of cars

    >declared manufactured during the 1969.

    Reviewing the Posts.. I do not see any VIN numbers. Where did you put them? All I see is a reported total, broken down only into two categories... ie. the number of 432's and all other. Most certainly not a complete listing of VIN's.

    If I understood Enrique's post, that was what he was getting at.. we don't see a complete listing of VIN's released by the factory.

    For those following the thread, a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is comprised of two parts, the first being model information and the second being the chassis serial number..ie. HLS30 00500 would be a VIN.

    >All of the numbers I posted are for JAPANESE market cars, as one of the first

    >posts on this thread quoted "300" cars manufactured for the Japanese market

    >during the 1969 calendar year - which was clearly wrong.

    Actually, if you want to get specific, it's you that are wrong. The statement was.."It seems the first batch of 500 240z heading for america and the 300 or so Fairladys that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969."

    As written the statement is correct... the first 500 240-Z's as well as the first 300 or so Fairldays that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969. The actual total numbers may have been higher... but the statement makes no reference to totals nor limits, minims nor maximums.

    The additional information related to the totals.. was interesting and IMHO should have been offered as "additional information", more so than a correction of wrong information.

    But then reviewing your Post... "All" of the numbers you Posted were most certainly NOT for JAPANESE market cars, as you also listed and commented on the "Export" numbers as well.

    >Compare these figures to what you see on 'zhome.com' regarding the "first 500" at your

    >leisure.

    Yes, I invite everyone to do just that. Please see:

    http://zhome.com/History/69ZArticle.html

    Please define and report specifically any information there that is "inaccurate". Every effort has been made to report clearly what we actually find. Where the owners of these cars have allowed, we also list them with additional information on the Z Car Registers. There you find not only the VIN's, but the Date of Manufacture, the Original Engine Serial Number, the Owners and their e-mail addresses.

    Where you quote reported totals by categories for the JDM cars. We list the actual complete VIN's of the cars found to be still in existence. The title of the Article is; "Finding The Remaining 1969 Production Year 240-Z's"

    A brief review of the article will also show that I discuss the fact that VIN's above 00500 were found and are reported. Nonetheless, the statement "the first 500 Datsun 240Z's were produced in 1969 is still correct. Quite possible the number is something greater than that.. but as EScanlon pointed out.. we still do not know how many of the units shown on a Production Schedule, actually received chassis serial numbers. For that matter we do not know exactly when that picture was taken, nor if that is a forward forecast (which production schedules usually are) or documentation of actual units produced, or some combination of the two.

    >I don't recall seeing ANY mention of the 1969 S30 and S30-S models on that site,

    >and one would be forgiven for imagining that they did not even exist.

    As I have repeatedly told you Alan.. I personally have only a minor side interest in the JDM Nissan Fairladys. So I have absolutely no motivation to spend MY time publishing information just to please you. Quite frankly it's silly of you to expect me to.

    I told you honestly and forthrightly that in my opinion, and the opinions of most automotive historians the real story of the Z Car, is the story of the DATSUN 240-Z.

    The JDM Fairlady's are simply an interesting side note in the overall history of the Z Car. About 10% of the total, sold only in Japan, they represent a few additional sales of what was from the beginning intended by Nissan to be an Export model. (as were all Sports Cars from Nissan after WW-II).

    As I offered in our first e-mail exchange on this subject in Nov. of 2001, if you think the information is worth sharing with the Z Car Community, then write interesting articles, document the facts as best you can, .. and we would be glad to publish it on the Z Car Home Page. I'm sure many people would be interested. I'm always interested in learning more about them, just not interested in spending my time doing the research and documentation.

    All the information on the Z Car Home Page, intended to be shared with the Z Car Community, has been freely contributed by people with an interest in the subjects they research and write about.

    On average "the Z Car Home Page" is visited 45,000 times per month, and an average four different articles per visit are called upon. (numbers taken three years ago, before we removed the hit counters -I'm sure it has increased by now).

    Instead of constantly criticizing the work of others, bemoaning the fact that for 90% of us the JDM Nissan Fairlady Z's are simply an interesting side trip to our main interests in the Datsun 240-Z's that we own ... I'd suggest that if you actually want Fairlady Z information on the Z Car Home Page; you simply do the work that everyone else does. Write the articles, gather the pictures, encode the html formats and submit them.

    As I do exercise editorial control over the site, I will publicly state that I will be glad to publish well written and factual information related to the Fairlady Z's submitted by anyone willing to do the work.

    I will farther state that I will not support a wacked out opinion that Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan, just got lucky with their Z Car and just happened to sell more than expected in the USA. Nor that the Z Car was actually intended to be anything other than an export model, aimed squarely at the US market. (as extensively documented by Mr. K and Mr. Matsuo themselves in numerous places).

    >The irony of seeing Carl Beck posting on this thread - completely ignoring the subject

    >under discussion in the title of the thread, surprise surprise - was not lost on me.

    I wouldn't expect it to be lost on you Alan, as you have now posted four off topic Posts to this thread yourself. The topic was a request for the value of one Fairlady Z located in the US... For that matter I haven't seen anyone answer the question in any specific manor.

    So I will, in my opinion it would sell for between $500.00 and $1500.00 USD.

    >Gave me a wry smile, actually. But nevertheless, here is a 1969-build Fairlady being

    >very relevant - in its own thread - and providing interesting conversational matter......

    Yes, if you disregard the original request .... which every one of your Posts, and most others including mine did.. ie. what is the car worth?... or where are links that I can find the information at??". I will grant that it is one of the few threads we see that "was" specifically about a Fairlady Z, even though it was about selling it ....

    FWIW,

    Carl

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    Carl, you have got to be kidding about the value of this car. Here we have an extremely early Fairlady Z and you think it is worth what a normal 240z is worth in need of a restoration. That is absolute blasphemy! If this were a thread about an early 240z, people would be interested, but nowhere near as interested as people are SINCE it is a Fairlady Z. Get with the program; most people love Fairlady Z’s. I prefer not to criticize people, but you have just put down everything that I believe in as far as Z’s go. The difference between you and Alan, is that you get defensive and say that Fairlady Z’s are an afterthought and that they don’t matter because they were only sold in Japan. With Alan, it is clear that he has an interest for the home market cars, but he still talks with the utmost respect about export models.

    I have talked with Matsuo-san personally and he told me that the Z was meant to be a worldly car; one that would be acceptable in all countries. Thus, each export market had a slightly different variation. Where do you get that it was only intended for the US? It is very arrogant to say that. It is quite clear that the domestic market got the best of the variations. Not only did they get the best, but also, they got the most pure of them all. You know all the specifications; so I don’t need to spoon-feed you which engines, bodies, and other options that the JDM cars have that make them SUPERIOR to the export cars.

    Your site has very little information on Fairlady Z’s, and the information that it has seems as if it was extracted from Brian Long’s book. It is sad that there is not a website (not forum) that is truly dedicated to the Fairlady Z’s that is in English. We have all these Internet capabilities, yet most of the world outside Japan is still in the dark about these magnificent cars; I am still in the dark about them as I am learning slowly. Carl, you are a person with a wealth of knowledge on the subject of the early Z’s, but it seems that you would not mind just ignoring everything Fairlady Z. You say you do not mind people posting on Zhome about JDM cars, but you are not very assuring.

    You also may argue about the early Works rally cars as being 240z’s and not being home market cars, but they are much more of a 432-R body than a 240z.

    I love Z’s in general, but I am most interested in Fairlady Z’s as I strongly believe that they are the purist form of a Z. I don’t think I will ever part with my 260z, but I plan that it will be my first and last export model. This is not only for my interests, but for the interests of others who like me, have been in the dark about Fairlady Z’s.

    -Ben

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    Some people are taking this 240Z v.s Fairlady too seriously. Different versions of essentially the same car (S30). One "better" than the other? Better for what? For whom? What was deemed "better" by the factory (Nissan) for the various different selling markets may still apply. "Most" people love the _ _ _ _ _ _ version? Anything to back that up? Maybe the lack of an English language website about "these cars" indicates a relative lack of interest in them outside the home market? How many people outside the US are interested in Edsels, or Buicks? Enough to support a website about them written in Arabic?

    I think Mr. Beck encouraged people to provide data for publication on his website. It's (IMO) unreasonable to expect him to expend his time and effort on something that he doesn't wish to.

    Value of a JDM car (which located in the USA) that needs restoration may be compromised by the serious difficulty in finding parts to accomplish a proper resto on it. Look at how much trouble people have in sourcing parts for #0026/0027, and #0215 North American market cars (Chris' and Mark's cars)

    None of this is meant to devalue anyone's interest in any version of S30.

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    Y'all make me laugh. Thanks.

    A 1969 produced Fairlady - VIN 144 - in poor condition, not running, with floor and frame rail rust issues, requiring full restoration but quite salvageable is worth between $3,500 and $7,000 in the United States. It may be worth more on the East coast than the West coast, but it is only worth what someone is willing to pay and accept at any given time. Those numbers are close to what the last four double-digit VIN cars in comparable condition I have seen trade for. This Fairlady may very well start, but I am not under the impression that she is a driver. Princess 27 was a dead toad and I paid $2,350. Carl Beck, you’re dreaming! Nice condition drivable Fairladys have been selling in the high teens to low twenties over the last year-and-a-half.

    A buyer should expect to spend over $30,000 to restore the car to show condition and I will use the Vintage Z program quality as a guideline. Easily $30,000. The same car completed is worth $35,000 and up. If you all think I would part with my "common" low VIN cars after they are complete for anything less, you need to go home, close the doors and windows and have a good cry. The last few Vintage Zs have traded in the high $20s to low $30s.

    Chris

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    Actually, I would have to agree with Carl's vauleation of this car. It was only late last year that another early Fairlady sold on eBay for about this...and we all know how people tend to over pay on eBay sometimes getting caught up in the excitement of the bidding.

    I also must agree with Bambi's statements about sourcing parts for a Fairlady restoration...personally I have a series I and find if VERY difficult to locate some parts for this car and it's a US market car.

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    ........ The last few Vintage Zs have traded in the high $20s to low $30s.

    Chris

    I'll skip comment on the rest of the post, but would you care to elaborate on the above quote? I've seen one V..... Zcar sell for mid $20's ($27K IIRC, and it was advertised for sale for years), and haven't seen or heard of ANY even approaching $30K in years.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4533097490&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

    currently at $20.1K

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    Geez, I hope I didn't start a flame war....

    Two thoughts to the side of the topics in discussion:

    Let's not direct remarks about individual inaccuracies in prior postings, sites, memo's, books, etc. at INDIVIDUALS as being malicious or with malicious intent. I believe most of the inaccuracies that have been made regarding the Z, the Fairlady, the Z432R, the origins of the design, the authors of the original concept, the intended target market and others, are due to simple lack of adequate information having been handed out by Datsun/Nissan originally.

    That individuals in their altruistic fervor to compile information into one source inadvertently received bad information that was then posted, does NOT imply that they willingly and knowingly posted bad information.

    When someone comes along and points out the inaccuracies, or omissions, or ..., then it is perfectly natural to question the credentials of the individual making those allegations.

    Questioning that individual's reputation is not intended to malign that reputation, nor should it be considered a slur. It is perfectly reasonable to ask "And WHO are you?" when challenged with the statement "What you **** is wrong!". To respond antagonistically when challenged begets the doubt in accepting the answer and/or credentials.

    So let's discuss the inaccuracies, and correct as many as we can, by re-posting here, or by posting links, or by whatever level of verification is generally felt to be needed. It is the BLIND acceptance of items that leads us to argue the validity of them. Failing to challenge something, because of perceived "taboo's", (don't want to insult, social pressure, etc.) is why a lot of information is written inaccurately.

    As a group, those of us who are most interested in origins, details, numbers, etc. need to have these discussions, so that we may hopefully eliminate omissions, and correct inaccuracies. Let's not point fingers and call names, let's go forward from here and fill in where others haven't.

    =======

    In discussing the WHY's, "How come?", WHERE etc of humans, especially when relating to things that happened in the past, it is imperative that the look back not don the rose-colored glasses that living in the present can give you.

    Case in point; Hitler is pretty much viewed as the epitome of human evil. If in examining Germany and it's society during the 1930's you make assumptions as to why something happened during that time, biased by your dislike for Hitler, then you will have made a gross error.

    During that time frame, Germany saw Hitler in a totally favorable and acceptable light. Let's not quibble over small items, the fact is that he was first ELECTED to his position in government. That he moved up in the government is atributable to his evil, but not that the society as a whole KNEW he was evil and did nothing. Many of them felt extremely let down when the truth came out.

    With that thought in mind, in hindsight, it is easy to presume that since the Z sold so well in the U.S., that it was destined for it's market. That they TARGETED our market, in those days, was a given. The U.S. market at that time was one of the most desired, profitable, and burgeoning markets in the world. Of course you'd want to be involved. That the car was also sold in other markets, with some features added to improve it's appeal to those markets, is simple marketing.

    You can't sell shaved ice in Alaska during winter, but add flavored sugar syrup, and now it's a Sno-Cone, and some kid's going to want one. However, shaved ice in Acapulco is used by the ton to cool shrimp, fish, salads, etc. That you can also find a Sno-Cone in Acapulco is because that is also a sellable product in that market.

    Trying to determine the reason some items were offered and not, is something that was very much determined by the level of sophistication in that market AND it's acceptance of that product.

    An aboriginal tribe in the depths of the Amazonian Jungle, will assign God status to the first man that shows them a cigarette lighter. To them, he will have just performed a miracle. Once they've been exposed to, and used, matches, recognizing them as a man-made product, then introducing the lighter would generate interest, but not wonder at the new miracle. Conversely, if disposable lighters were first introduced to them, then who in that market would want to buy matches when they get introduced later?

    That the U.S. did not receive 5 speed gear boxes when the car was first being introduced, regardless that other markets did have that option, was because those who were electing to market the car in the U.S., felt that the market might not understand, appreciate (as in assigning a $ value to) and most important of all, accept those additional features.

    The bottom line in discussing what would or would not have been sold has to rely on one very distinct Sales Axiom: You can't sell something to someone who is NOT willing to buy.

    If you look back at the archives of magazines you may have in your garage. Look through the advertising, you'll find very few ads for Japanese vehicles. You will also notice that the average American car that was being offered, was NOT the compact, lightweight, gas-economizing, performance tuned, sports-car. Yes, there were vehicles in that category, but they were seen as minor off-shoots of the main market.

    The "AVERAGE" vehicle, if it could be described, was a big heavy, gas-guzzling, pleasure-cruise BOAT of a car. That's what the U.S. "Baby Boomers" were buying, because as a group, they were into their early "Family" phase. Yes there were individuals ahead of that curve, and others who've lagged behind, and they comprised the sales of the sub-market off-shoots, but the main part of the bell curve was buying family rigs.

    {for those of you outside the U.S., the Baby Boomers generally defines people born during the "Baby Boom" experienced after WWII and Korea.}

    Datsun very bravely entered the U.S. market with it's original inexpensive Bluebird cars and trucks, then the Fairlady Roadsters and sold some, and then gambled on a bigger slice with the Z is because of the growing acceptance of Japanese products by the American public. One of the reasons Honda entered the automobile market in the U.S., was probably due to the growing market share that Datsun was beginning to enjoy. However, if anyone recalls the original Civic, you'll recall that it was basically a motorcycle with a passenger compartment. It wasn't till much later that it's sales took off.

    The American public, AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME, as a general statement of the group, did not feel the need to buy something smaller, lighter, and most importantly essentially, a simplified version of their automotatic behemoths. That a few individuals out of the group whole, went against that generalized trend, neither contradicts nor belies the trend of the group as a whole.

    The cost of manpower difference between U.S. manufacturer's vs Japanese manufacturers was a chasm so deep as to be called an abyss. Japanese manufacturers could literally sell for pennies on the dollar the labor invested in their car, and still make a profit. The U.S. government did in fact step in and impose tariffs, import quotas, and import duties on the vehicles being brought in, specifically targeted to the Japanese car manufacturers because of these differences.

    Check the old magazines again and you'll find numerous articles on how the govt. was working to "protect" Detroit and it's ramnifications.

    Many of those same obstacles to market were still in place when the Gas Shortage that was experienced in the U.S. rocketed the price of fuel to the point where the public felt a need to search for alternatives to expending gas frivolously.

    That is one of the poignant reasons that more fuel efficient and inherent in their design, smaller and lighter vehicles began to sell well. At that point in time, the market changed.

    IF THE MARKET HADN'T CHANGED, THE Z MAY HAVE BEEN ANOTHER ROADSTER, RENAULT LeCar, OR ANY OF THE OTHER VEHICLES THAT NEVER SOLD WELL IN THE U.S. OR ANYWHERE.

    That the market did change, is where we Z lover's benefited. Talk to a Roadster owner and ask him about the availability of parts, bemoaning the Z's lack of OEM parts, and the need for aftermarket stock replacements, and you'll discover that aftermarket reproductions are very commonly used. OEM parts were scarce to begin with, because of the lack of sales, and now they're virtually gone. The Z has the luxury of sometimes finding donor cars in bone-yards, the typical Roadster in the bone-yard is usually a candidate for restoration. Yes, this is slightly exagerated but my point applies.

    With the hindsight afforded to us by time and our love for the Z, it's easy to assign ulterior motives and otherwise denigrate the perceived lack of features, options and lack of product as malignant, when in fact, at that point in time, they were hoping that their marketing gamble would succeed.

    However, that in later periods they did not address the lack of those features, products and options etc, is either ignorant arrogance, or a failure to recognize potential. Then again, it might be as simple as a company experiencing exponential growth that exceeded careful monitoring and cultivated control.

    2¢

    Enrique

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    Mar0804.jpg

    Carl, can you explain the idea that Fairladys were not produced until Jan 1970?

    It has been stated that the first run of the 240z are sometimes found to be titled as 1969 because of the sales date, even though its a 1970 model, WHY ? Because they were sold/ titled in late 1969.

    I see the same situation here .The date on this title was simply transfered from the first title. If the car was produced, titled and sold in 1970 why would it ever be titled as a 1969? If it was a Jan 1970 or later build it would have been titled as a 1970.

    This car only had two owners, a former USAF Officer ( passed on) and it second owner, another USAF Officer. Since the first is no longer with us I have to go on the accounts of my father, the second owner. He told me the car was first purchased before Christmas in 1969 as a present for the late officers wife while stationed in japan.

    The above information would tend to support that belief that the first Fairladys were being produced along side of the 240Z in late 1969.

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    The date on this title was simply transfered from the first title. If the car was produced, titled and sold in 1970 why would it ever be titled as a 1969?

    I wouldn't necessarily consider the title to be authoritative. For instance, the title on my car lists it as a 4-cylinder. I suspect some ignorant DMV worker just assumed that because it was a Japanese car.

    The fact that your car has a specific VIN and a specific manufacture date is good enough. After all the so-called year of the car is somewhat arbitrary. We know that there were overlaps during the transition periods between model year.

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    I wouldn't necessarily consider the title to be authoritative. For instance, the title on my car lists it as a 4-cylinder. I suspect some ignorant DMV worker just assumed that because it was a Japanese car.

    The fact that your car has a specific VIN and a specific manufacture date is good enough. After all the so-called year of the car is somewhat arbitrary. We know that there were overlaps during the transition periods between model year.

    My 65 Nova is titled as a 64, based on its first date of sale, ( and the fact that the car physiclay existed in 1964) I just have never heard of it being done in reverse.

    No big deal realy. Carl says its worth $500.00 , I just figured the rear vertical defogger glass was worth that much. Guess Ill give it the pro street treatment, how many RHD tubed fairladys are there anyway?

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    No big deal realy. Carl says its worth $500.00 , I just figured the rear vertical defogger glass was worth that much. Guess Ill give it the pro street treatment, how many RHD tubed fairladys are there anyway?

    Well, that may be what Carl is willing to pay so that's what it's worth to him. Some might be willing to pay more; others less. Perhaps the best way to determine a true market value of something is to just put it on eBay and see how high people are willing to go.

    Your second sentence above seems intended to provoke a reaction out of people. It's your car and you are free to do with it as you like.

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    Well, that may be what Carl is willing to pay so that's what it's worth to him. Some might be willing to pay more; others less. Perhaps the best way to determine a true market value of something is to just put it on eBay and see how high people are willing to go.

    Your second sentence above seems intended to provoke a reaction out of people. It's your car and you are free to do with it as you like.

    I just felt that the valve statted ( $500.00 ) was as realsitc as my desire to destroy it. ( by cutting it up.) I was being a smart arse.

    All honesty I dont want to sell it, I want to restore it. I know the cost involved, $15,000-20,000 as I have restored a couple cars already. I just have to prepare my self if it has to go I want a fair price and want it to go to someone who will give it a good home.

    I dont care if its a classic, rare or just another car. I Like it and thats all thats important.

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    Were these ACTUAL production figures or were they based on the projection of serial numbers to be assigned to that model type / class?

    As shown at Zhome.com, there are instances where the last "production number" reported exceeds and sometimes overlaps onto the next series of numbers. Conversely, there are instances where the serial numbers seem to far outweigh what has been shown to be the case. N.B.: The "first" 500 Z's were 1969.... but apparently there are no records nor reports of the extremely low serial numbers, which gives #26 and 27 added import.

    Hi Enrique,

    Your full post was very interesting and thoughfully put together, but do you mind if I concentrate my answer mainly on that part of it which I quote above?

    My first post on this thread ( I think it was post #11 on the thread ) contained information from two sources in Japan regarding reported production quantities and chassis numbers ( 'Shatai Bango' in Japanese ) for the 1969 Japanese market Z cars. I posted this information firstly to correct the statement made by NovaSS that "300 or so" Fairladies were made in 1969 ( I think he actually wrote "300 or so Fairladies that stayed in Japan" ), and secondly to BACK UP his assertion that his car was manufactured in November 1969.

    As you may know, our friend Kats visited some staff members of Nissan Shatai last year, and they gave him some copies of production records that contained details of both "Export" and "Domestic" S30-series Z cars that had been produced by Nissan Shatai during the 1969 and 1970 calendar years ( they are broken down by calendar years ). We have discussed these on this site on several previous threads, and they seem worthy of being taken seriously. Kats e-mailed copies to me, and - the World being small as it is - I also received copies from mutual friends in Japan.

    I stress, they apparently record the quantity of bodies / cars that Nissan Shatai made during the period recorded. It is still not clear exactly how many of these bodies / cars were assigned a series production chassis number ( "Shatai Bango" ) and how many of them were NOT sold to the General Public. We have also discussed this and other related points at length. Please note that they list Z car production broken down into just TWO types - namely "Domestic" and "Export" versions. As far as the 1969 calendar year goes, I would take that to mean 'S30' and 'PS30' prefixed models for 'Domestic' and 'HLS30' and - arguably - 'HS30' for the 'Export' types. If Nissan Shatai made even one 'Export' HS30 during 1969, then I think we should count it.

    The second set of figures I posted were taken from documents supplied to me personally as a member of "CLUB S30" of Japan. These are a list of chassis numbers ( 'Shatai Bango' ) recorded as issued to cars by the manufacturer, and reported to official Japanese ministries by the "Nihon Jidosha Kogyo Kai" ( my translation - take it how you will - would be 'Japanese Auto Manufacturers Association' ).

    These figures apparently list the 'Shatai Bangos' issued to Japanese DOMESTIC market models during the period they cover, broken down by VIN prefix type ( S30, PS30, HS30, GS30 etc etc ) and by calendar year. For example, in year 1969 they list 'S30' VIN numbers from 'S30-00001' through to 'S30-00953' INCLUSIVE as having been issued. That's 953 bodies / cars.

    Note that they DO NOT cover 'Export' models.

    I made the point that the Nissan Shatai numbers and the Nihon Jidosha Kogyo Kai numbers do not add up to the same total. I also made the point that it might be possible to explain this if you take into account that they essentially list quantities under different criteria ( one is 'bodies made', and one is 'bodies / cars issued with a 'Shatai Bango' ( serial VIN number ).

    Everybody is free to poke holes in these figures at their leisure, but I would remind everyone that they are arguably more credible than those published in a piece of Nissan advertising / coffee table book, published retrospectively ( as repeated and known to be total nonsense on zhome.com under the heading "Production Figures" at zhome.com/History/zproduction.html )

    The Japanese lists are compiled from records filed AT THE TIME ( at the end of each calendar year ).

    If anyone wants to argue that NovaSS's car ( S30-00144 ) was NOT made in November 1969, then bring it on. I'll argue the case most strongly FOR.

    I hope it is now clear WHAT those figures are, WHERE they came from, and WHY I posted them.

    Alan T.

    Edit: sorry - can't insert hyperlink

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    I just have to prepare my self if it has to go I want a fair price and want it to go to someone who will give it a good home.

    I dont care if its a classic, rare or just another car. I Like it and thats all thats important.

    I don't think getting a fair price will be a problem considering that a number of people here have already expressed a keen interest in the car and are the kinds of people who would, in fact, attempt a proper restoration. That's what I would call a good home.

    As others have mentioned, finding proper parts for the earliest Z cars can be a real problem. Trying to restore your car here in the US will be even more difficult given the fact that it's a JDM RHD car (those parts just aren't available here like they would be in Japan) and that fact that RHD cars we produced in smaller numbers in general. I may well be wrong here but I'm assuming that the overall parts supply is directly proportional to the number of cars produced of a given model and with older cars being more difficult to source than newer cars.

    Also, notice that member "kats" is doing a very thorough restoration of a LHD car in Japan and has access to many of the original Nissan executives. Even he is having difficulty finding certain "proper" parts:

    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903/working.html

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    Hi NovaSS:

    First let me say that I'm a bit confused by the title. I thought you were Mike Harris, and that we had exchanged information about this specific car when we registered it on the Fairlady Z Register at Z Home some years ago... yet the title shows W. A. Robert jr.

    OK now to your questions:

    You wrote:

    >Carl, can you explain the idea that Fairladys were not produced until Jan 1970?

    >

    Nope, I can't explain it.

    I believe that you might be confusing the Datsun 240-Z with the Nissan Fairlady Z.

    I never stated, nor implied that Nissan Fairlady Zs were not produced in 1969. Indeed if you review Z Home you will see articles there on the Z 432's stating they were shown at the first auto show in 1969.

    If you review the Fairlady Z Register on the Z Car Home Page, you'll see your car listed there with Model Year of 1969... (it's been there since May of 2000).

    I have stated that there were no Right Hand Drive DATSUN 240-Z's produced in 1969. That was based on many facts, not the least of which is the fact that the lowest VIN sold to the public, that we have found and verified, for the RHD 240Z's is HS30 00004 in Australia. I have communicated extensively with the person that inspected it in 1970, then later bought and restored it. He and I are in full agreement that the car was most likely produced in late Jan. or early Feb. of 1970, based on his known history of the car, his farther research and documentation etc. (we could not verify in any way the HS30 00003 that was on ebay).

    Having seen HS30 240-Z's with VIN's of HS30 00350 and above, advertised as 1969 Production Year cars... I've tried to inform people that the sellers of these cars are mistaken. I believe both buyers and sellers want honest information. It was a common mistake based on previously confused information. (thinking that the HS and HLS series cars shared a common sequence of serial numbers... which they did not).

    >It has been stated that the first run of the 240z are sometimes found to

    >be titled as 1969 because of the sales date, even though its a 1970 model,

    >WHY ? Because they were sold/ titled in late 1969.

    I do not know where it has been quite stated that way. It has been stated by me that the some of the Datsun 240-Z's produced in 1969 were titled as 1969 Datsun 240's. Not because of their sale date, but rather because of their date of manufacture listed on their Manufacture's Statement Of Orign (MSO's).

    In 1969/70 it was common practice in many countries to keep "Model Year" the same as "Production Year". Thus their cars produced in 1965 were sold as 1965 Models, their cars produced in 1966 were sold as 1966 Models etc. (makes logical sense).

    The US was one of the few counties that brought new Model Year cars to market ahead of the beginning of the calendar year. So here in the US you could by a 1966 Chevy/Ford in Sept of 1965 or later.

    Titles for automobiles are issued by the individual States here in the US ... so the Selling Dealers have only a Manufactures Statement Of Origin (MSO) to start the process of applying to the State they are in, for an automotive title to be issued, which is then transferred to the buyer upon the sale. (in many countries this is handled at the Federal level).

    Many Foreign Car Dealers here in the US, followed the practice of their Manufacturer's Countries when designating the "Model Year" of the cars they sold. So when applying for a State Title, they listed the "Model Year" as being the same as the Date Of Manufacture given on the MSO.

    At about 1969/1970 with the increased competition of imports gaining market share, and therefore attracting ever more and more buyers that did not normally buy foreign cars.. The Dealers realized that by the time they received their "new" Models... it was Feb or March of the Calendar Year (due to release in Jan. and shipping times from the overseas factories), and they were now five to six months behind the US models coming to market..In turn the Customers expected significant discounts, as in their minds half the model year had already passed, and the domestic dealers were already discounting the "new" models.

    Nissan and their Dealers realized this just like all other major importers. So in the late 60's they started shifting their production schedules, and releasing their new models earlier, year by year.

    Being a completely new model, you can see from the schedule that Kats provided that the 1970 Model Year Z's actually started serious production in Oct. of 1969. (not uncommon for a completely new model start up) Once full production of the cars was rolling, you will note that the 1971 Model Year (the late model year) Series II Z's started production in Jan. of 1971. This was normal practice. ...But the Series III Z's (1972 Model Year) started production in 08/71. From that point forward Nissan and most other Manufactures outside the US shifted their production schedules to keep their Model Years, in line with the US Model Introductions.

    While all this was first happening around 1969/70, the Authorize Foreign Car Dealers were in many cases were a few months behind, so they continued business as usual (keeping Model Year the same as the Date of Manufacture) Once they saw the shift taking place.. most fell in line with it and started selling the cars they received in Sept. as their "New Models" and titling them as such. Which State Laws allowed them to do.

    Because this was not a coordinated change, you see today that we have a large overlap in the VIN's of the Series I Z's.. some being titled as 1970 and some being titled as 1971 Model Year cars. (this may be where you saw model year determined by Date Of Sale?? ie.. cars sold after 1 Sept. 1970 were mostly titled as 1971 Model Year cars.)

    This situation was ended when the Federal Emissions and Safety Standards started to drive new requirements, year by year in 1971/72. Now it would be against the Federal Law to sell a 1971 240-Z as a 1972 Model Year... even if they were identical in build, as cars are certified with the Feds year by year now.

    It would not surprise me that when your Fairlady was brought back to the States, the title clerk at the local DMV, took the Date Of Manufacture off the paperwork, and applied it as the Model Year (common practice for imported cars back then).

    The Dealer that originally sold HLS30 00020 titled it as a 1969 Datsun 240, I suppose in keeping with the then common practice, and it is still titled/registered that way today. You will notice that I did not question your Fairlady being a titled as a 1969 Model....

    anyway, hope that answers your questions.

    kind regards,

    Carl

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    Hello Alan:

    Is what you supplied, related to the production numbers supplied by Nissan Shatai, something different than the picture of the Production Schedule supplied to Kats, and which he published on this forum in an earlier discussion? Did Nissan Shatai supply different information directly to you?

    Nope ( see my previous post ). I got the same set of figures that you ( presumably ) got, but through several different sources, including a direct e-mail from Kats ( thanks Kats ).

    Reviewing the Posts.. I do not see any VIN numbers. Where did you put them? All I see is a reported total, broken down only into two categories... ie. the number of 432's and all other. Most certainly not a complete listing of VIN's.

    Ah, that will be the famous 'Beck Patent Blinkers' in full effect. You are trying to make a silly semantic point by pretending to be Mr Magoo again.

    To refresh, I quoted ( for 1969 calendar year production ):

    *S30 ( Fairlady Z & Fairlady Z-L ) = Chassis Numbers S30-00001~00953

    *PS30 ( Fairlady Z432 & Fairlady Z432-R ) = Chassis Numbers PS30-00001~00072

    For my used term "Chassis Numbers" - please note that I am referring to the body serial number and model variant type combination, as stamped into the firewall sheet metal, and stamped into the plate affixed in the engine bay. No doubt you will want to re-educate me as to what I should be calling this according to your personal interpretation ( biased heavily by customs in your home country, just like I am ), but as we are essentially discussing JAPANESE domestic models here, lets nip that in the bud and let ME tell YOU that I am talking about 'Shatai Bango' - OK?

    If I understood Enrique's post, that was what he was getting at.. we don't see a complete listing of VIN's released by the factory.

    For those following the thread, a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is comprised of two parts, the first being model information and the second being the chassis serial number..ie. HLS30 00500 would be a VIN.

    See above. You want me to list them one by one for you? S30-00001, S30-00002, S30-00003, S30-00004 de da de da de da.........

    Actually, if you want to get specific, it's you that are wrong. The statement was.."It seems the first batch of 500 240z heading for america and the 300 or so Fairladys that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969."

    As written the statement is correct... the first 500 240-Z's as well as the first 300 or so Fairldays that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969. The actual total numbers may have been higher... but the statement makes no reference to totals nor limits, minims nor maximums.

    You see why I love you so much? Its because you come up with nonsense like this in an effort to destroy what you don't agree with. Over 900 Fairladies were made before the end of 1969. Just how is saying that the "the first 300 or so Fairladies that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969" an accurate representation of the truth, let alone what was actually meant by NovaSS ( and which he confirmed in a subsequent post )? You really are the ultimate twister. Did you work as a speech writer for Tricky Dicky Nixon?

    But then reviewing your Post... "All" of the numbers you Posted were most certainly NOT for JAPANESE market cars, as you also listed and commented on the "Export" numbers as well.

    I compared figures to 'Export' models in the Nissan Shatai figures for good reason. You obviously don't want to understand why.

    Please define and report specifically any information there that is "inaccurate". Every effort has been made to report clearly what we actually find. Where the owners of these cars have allowed, we also list them with additional information on the Z Car Registers. There you find not only the VIN's, but the Date of Manufacture, the Original Engine Serial Number, the Owners and their e-mail addresses.

    Well the "first 500" seems to be an arbitrary figure for a start, but you know damn well that it would be too long-winded and time-consuming to pinpoint anomalies one-by-one and then argue them through with you. I've been there before. Let's just say that my gripes with your site ( and you know what I mean by 'your' ) on the subject of its one way street view, and America Uber Alles stance ( summed up by the banner at the top of the home page - which I note you have corrected the spelling mistakes in since I pointed them out to you ) are well known to you. I can sum up the mindset of the site by pointing at title headings such as "Z Production" and "The True History of the Z Car", when in fact it would more accurately be "HLS30-U Production" and "The True History of the HLS30-U" etc etc etc. And you know what I'm talking about, and you know that I know why you do it.

    I'm NOT talking about the registers of early cars / original owners and the data supplied by owners - which I think is an admirable project worthy of praise by all. So stop trying to twist it.

    Tea break. I'm going to put the kettle on. There will now be a brief intermission. Popcorn, choc ices and Acapulco Sno-Cones will be available in the Foyer. What flavour would you like, Enrique?

    Alan T.

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    Yes the title says. W A Robert, he is my father. ( nothing like an USAF Officer with the initals of W.A.R. LOL ) My real name is Mike Harris AKA Nova SS. I moderate over at Steves Nova Site,(www.stevesnovasite.com) the most active Nova board on the net.

    I have not yet transfered the car into my name as I waiting to see if I have to sell it or keep it.

    I would like to thank ALL of you guys for all the information requarding the early Z cars. Everyone has made a postive contribution, even if there is some disagrement on some minor issues. I now have a better basic understanding of what the gentlemen a Datsun went through to get this car on the road.

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    NovaSS wrote:

    > ...snipped.

    >.. Carl says its worth $500.00 ...

    Hi NovaSS:

    I know you just may be razzing me.. but actually I intentionally did NOT say "it was worth $500.00".

    More correctly I said..." in my opinion it would sell for between $500.00 and $1500.00 USD".

    You ask for our thoughts, and I gave you my honest opinion. I did not assign a "worth" to the car, rather what I believe would be the range within the market at which it would actually sell.

    I felt it was better to arm you with what I felt was the truth.. than to let you keep it until you actually needed the money, only then to find out you couldn't sell it for as much as you had hoped or others hand thought.

    As far as I know, right now anyone can buy HLS30 00040 for $5,500.00 or $6,500.00 . It is a very solid, all original California Z (meaning never wrecked nor highly modified and not badly rusted) running car.. a very good candidate for full restoration. I can not see anyone paying the mid point of Chris valuation..$5,250.00 for your Z, when for the same money they could buy an easily restorable, solid bodied Z. Supply/demand and market competition for few buyer dollars...

    Chris said he paid $2350.00 for #27... also with extensive rust damage. But Chris also received hard to find new OEM parts with the car - IMO well worth $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 on ebay. Parts which he could apply directly to his #26. Also the brag factor of having sequential serial numbers is well worth a few hundred bucks to any of us.. deduct the value of the new parts and what did he really pay for the car?

    It is also possible that someone out there desperately needs some parts off that car.. and at the same time winds up bidding against another equally desperate and determined bidder on ebay.. it's possible.. but I believe not really probable. Put it on ebay with a reserve of $5,100.00 and if it doesn't bring that.. sell it to Chris.

    Like everyone else.. just my perspective of the current market...

    FWIW,

    Carl

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    NovaSS wrote:

    > ...snipped.

    >.. Carl says its worth $500.00 ...

    As far as I know, right now anyone can buy HLS30 00040 for $5,500.00 or $6,500.00 . It is a very solid, all original California Z (meaning never wrecked nor highly modified and not badly rusted) running car.. a very good candidate for full restoration. Like everyone else.. just my perspective of the current market...

    FWIW,

    Carl

    Carl,

    Could you please direct me to this car? Direct info to: Volgolf@aol.com

    David Spillman

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