Carl Beck

Hi Kats: Thank-you. I am most happy that the Z Car Enthusiasts in Japan could see the BRE Baja Z. It was not widely known here in the US, as coverage of the Baja competitions were limited to a few speciality publications circulated mostly in California and the Western States at the time; I'm sure it was all but unheard of in Japan. Getting back to the subject of Mr. Tamura. At dinner with Mr. Tamura and Mr. Yoshida, did they both seem to agree that Mr. Tamura should be credited with the final or finished styling of the original Z Car? I also worry that the use of the term or name "A550-X" could represent at least two different designs, unless pictures of them were used to clearly identify them, by the people speaking. It seems that Mr Yoshida is saying that both the metal prototype and the fiberglass prototype kept at Yamaha are both part the A550-X Project. Mr. Matsuo's statement; "I never felt A550-X was a great looking car,I thought the car was in just on the half way of its completion." I would say that if he is talking about the metal prototype, that was delivered to Nissan, then Yes - that was NOT great looking, and Yes it was half way to its completion. If you showed the picture of the Fiberglass Prototype kept at Yamaha - then I do not understand how Mr. Matsuo could look at that car and think it was not a great looking car. Also it is most certainly finished - it could be driven around... As I look at sketches of the Fiberglass Yamaha A550-X and now see sketches from Mr. Yoshida's notebook - I see two cars that look very very much alike. {picture below} What do you think? FWIW, Carl

Hi Alan: On the above point - we are pretty much in agreement. For the people following along -I'll add to your summary: I think it is important we keep in mind that there is a significant difference in one's expectations, when the decision to hire a "Designer" or hire a "Design Consultant" is made. When Prince Motors hired Michelotti or when Nissan hired Pinnfarina, they hired a Designer and contracted him to deliver a finished design. When BMW hired Goertz, they contracted him to deliver a finished design. In all three cases these men had a more-or-less clean slate, although all were constrained by the ability of their employers to produce any specific design. That is quite different than hiring a Design Consultant. The process of Consulting involves working with someone, or some team, with the intention of not doing the work for them, but rather leading them to improve their design processes. This is usually facilitated by improved talent, tools and techniques applied to the design process. One idea being that if you improve the entire process, you will automatically improve the output of that process. Agreed. I would only add - that because of his immense personal ego, his all but complete lack of success in formal education, combined with a very real high intelligence level - - Mr. Goertz looked down his nose at most people surrounding him. In Goertz's mind - "peasants are such fools and so easily mislead" The group of fools were for the most part the Automotive Press that surrounded him in New York and gave him a public voice. Followed by too many authors of books on the subject - that also failed to do due diligence in their research. The first mention of Goertz working for Nissan that I have, is an Article titled "a designer decries THE SAMENESS IN '66". It was published in Automobile Quarterly. I think Mr. Goertz understood the role of "consultant" and/or "critic" fairly well - although I agree that he saw himself as "a designer" first and foremost. - - - - Quoted From The Article - - - - "A consultant points out the possible direction a design might take"; Goertz explained. "A staff designer must then work out the final concept based on what is selected and what modifications are to be made. The consultant has one great advantage in not being a regularly employed staff desiger. He can say to the president of the company, "you are wrong", and not worry abou losing his place in the company chart. A staff designer would be required to submit a proposal to his chief, who might then discuss it with a second vice-president, who would in turn consult with a first vice-president, until it finally reached the top - completely different from what it was originally." Mr. Goertz emphasized that though an outside-designer might not be allowed to proceed with and build the design he creates, his ideals and suggestions could well be influential in determining the style and configuration of future designs. - - - - - End Quote - - - - - - Speaking only for myself - I know that Mr. Goertz life story is one of very great UP's and Down's". I have to admire his self confidence, intellect and artistic ability. All of which he used in great measures to take care of himself. Smart enough to see the hand writing on the wall, at age 19 in Germany - he fled to the US via England. Became an American, served in the US Army during WW-II - while his Mother and Older Brother {the real Count} stayed in Germany only to wind up in Death Camps for Jews. Through his own hard work {which included managing his image} he did become a fairly well known Industrial Designer {among tens of thousands of nameless, faceless working industrial designers}. Much of his design work is admired to this day. For all of that, I have to say that there is much about the man, that I admire. On the other hand - he was a self-centered egomaniac. A cunning manipulator of people that foolishly thought of themselves as his friends. He was bitter about the manor in which his peers in the design community treated him. In that regard, I actually pity him. Such talent, opportunity and success never lead him to very much real personal happiness. Respect? - - No, I think that had I been face to face with Mr. Goertz, I would have seemed very disrespectful to him. I'm sure he would not have liked me one bit. I think it is interesting that his description of how things work in the corporate world given in 1966 - line up with Mr. Matsuo's story told years later. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Will: I wondered what happened. I saw you across the way - a few minutes later I couldn't find you!! Got side tracked several times talking to people too. Glad you got to stop by - even if it was a short visit.. Great pictures as always. FWIW, Carl B.

$650.00 for a complete rebuild including parts and labor - is normal around here. $175.00 to $250.00 for a 5spd. that needs to be rebuilt. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Kats: Wonderful new information - Thanks! - it is great to see Mr. Yoshida's notes. Also very interesting to hear that Mr. Yoshida worked on both the Silvia and A550-X. Up until now, the only person that I recall, said to have worked on both Projects from Nissan was Mr. Kimura. That may be a clue about Nissan's legal statement to Mr. Goertz. Very good job Kats. You should have been a Private Investigator {Private Eye} to track down all these people ;-) FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Kats: When you have dinner the 31st. You might want to ask your dinner guests if they knew anyone at G.K.Design. G.K.Design did some work with Yamaha - and that final good looking prototype at Yamaha, may have had some of G.K.Design's work rather than Mr. Goertz. Also - search www.nissan-glabal.com/JP/CITIZENSHIP/ and see if you can find Mr. Setsuraku. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Kats: Neither one. Mr. Matsuo tells us that by the time he took over the Sports Car Styling Studio - Mr. Kimua who had worked with Mr. Goertz, had left and that nothing from the Yamaha/Nissan project was carried over. Mr. Goertz himself tells us that the design groups within Nissan were segmented, so that ideas and concepts were intentionally not shared between/among them. {this is done to promote individual creativity and produce a broad range of alternatives} What I am saying is that "IF" the Yamaha A550-X was indeed work directed by or created by Mr. Goertz at Yamaha - and years later he saw the Datsun 240Z for the first time - I can see and understand why Goertz believed it was an evolution of his design. If Mr. Goertz showed pictures of the finished Yamaha A550-X to others {like the press in NY} and they then saw the Datsun 240Z for the first time - they would also believe it was Goertz work. Especially if none of Matsuo's work was provided at the time. Take the Yamaha A550-X and as Mr. Matsuo said - raise the hood line for the L24 that Katayama wanted, then make the car wider for the Automatic Transmission behind the L24 - and the result would be pretty close to the overall "styling" of the Z Car with headlight covers blended in. Even the grill looks the same. On the other hand - if the Yamaha A550-X was actually done by someone else at Yamaha.. and you look only at the metal prototype built to Goertz specifications ie the Nissan 2000GT - it looks NOTHING like the final form of the Z Car. I'm just wondering if Mr. Goertz was a complete fraud -claiming work that wasn't his - - or if he simply believe that what he was looking at when he saw the Z - was the direct result of his work. So I'd really like to know if the A550-X was in fact Goertz styling... Knowing the truth might help to explain the "Goertz Myth" in a way that the Goertz Believers could accept. FWIW, Carl B.

At #12,500.00 ????? or did I read that wrong? Carl B.

That is the 4th type - pretty rare to have a NOS set. Carl B.

Hi Kats: You ask if AC would have sold as well - - I replied that I thought it would have. I didn't say that I liked them as well as the final form. At dinner the 31st. Please ask Mr. Tamura and Mr. Yoshida what they can tell us - about this prototype produced at Yamaha - it has a Nissan Logo on the hood. Mr. Goertz wrote in his autobiography... "The metal prototype produced to my design and specifications was shipped to Nissan and the project came to a halt" - - See First Picture Below... that is the picture released by Nisssan of the metal prototype. Then, later in the same book, Mr. Goetz writes ..."In addition to the metal prototype developed by Yamaha to my design, Nissan made a Fiberglass version of it"..... {Goertz does not show pictures of either one} Mr. Goertz tells us that he continued his work at Nissan, after the Joint Nissan/Yamaha Development Project was ended. Working on a couple different cars, which included a possible replacement for the 16000 roadster. Shin shows us a Fiberglass prototype at Yamaha - -in his book "Toyota 2000 GT". Pictures of this car are always shown at Yamaha. - See the Second Picture Below... Several years ago - this second car was shown on the Yamaha Web Site in their "History Section" - it has been removed since then for some reason. It has always been shown with the NISSAN logo on the hood... The question is - where did the fiberglass prototype originate? Was this an evolution or refinement of the Goertz design, completed at Yamaha, before Goertz left Nissan? Or was this a design originated and completed by Yamaha? In either case Mr. Goertz seems to have believed it was his work.

Hi Alan: If the picture you are talking about is the one the Chris Posted - Yes, that was taken at the New York International Auto Show. The man standing beside Mr. Goertz is Bob Sharp. Mr. Kawazoe let Mr. Goertz put the Goertz Logo on one side of the car. At the time, Sharp and Kawazoe were convinced that Goertz was behind the design. After all these years and research - I believe that Mr. Goertz did believe that the Datsun 240Z was the direct evolution of his work. Given his massive ego, I don't see how he could have believed otherwise. Given the Nissan Logo on the hood, of the final evolution at Yamaha's Design Center, of what Goertz claimed was his work - I can at least see the basis for Mr. Goertz belief. I hasten to add for everyone - the final Goertz/Yamaha Prototype stayed at Yamaha, as Nissan had only contracted for Yamaha to build one working prototype - which was delivered to Nissan after the Joint Project was cancelled. That first iteration of the Nissan 2000GT, looked quite different. I reversed the image of the HLS30 in the picture below - to put it in the same orientation as the Yamaha prototype. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Kats: Yes - I believe that had the Z Car been produced with the styling of either ACearly or AClate, the same number of Datsun 240Z's could have been sold here in the U.S/Canada. While neither of the two styles are as refined as the final form - they are both relatively modern and good looking. Styling of a Hatchback/Fastback Coupe was only one factor that drove sales. Others, as important were performance, reliability and utility. Driver and passenger ergonomics also offered a huge advantage over other Sports/GT's in the same class. Datsun 240Z sales here in North America, for all four model years of 1970, 71, 72 and 73 were only 155,000 units. Put another way - during the 1970 Model Year alone, people bought 198,229 Mustangs and 124,901 Camaros. The size of the U.S. market was such that it could have easily absorbed two to three times the number sold here. While the Datsun 240Z was a huge success for Nissan and the Datsun Dealers at the time, it represented a very small percentage of the potential new car market here in North America. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Mark: Welcome to the group. Looking at the pictures, I think you lucked out. There is no battery in the car and no coil - so it didn't leak and eat the frame rail. Also no one at this point has tried to turn the engine over by cranking the starter. {I hope}. Don't let anyone throw a battery in the car and start cranking. That has the potential to do far more damage than than just sitting idle for 25 years. There is a good thread titled "Waking the sleeping beast". I suggest you read it. Before you do anything else. http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22619&highlight=Awakening Go slow - and you may save yourself a lot of hassles and expense. Then the next order of business is to clean it up - use mild soap and water - that will take 90% of the crud off. Take care not to be too harsh with the vinyl and door panels. They will most likely be dry and brittle. After you get the top layers of grime off - you can use a bit stronger solution of cleaners on tough spots. If the dash isn't already cracked - you'll want to clean it, then rub it down with Vaseline Petroleum Jelly. Let that soak for a day, then remove the excess. There is a good chance that the carpet will be dry rotted - but sometimes they are not. Carefully remove them and vacuum - to see what you have. You will more than likely have to replace the tires, the rubber hoses for coolant, fuel and brake fluids. You might want to pull the radiator and have it boiled out and pressure checked, before you put fresh fluids in. Expect the rear wheel cylinders to be shot - likewise the front calipers will most likely have to be at least removed and cleaned, the pistons hang up. You most likely will wind up replacing the brake master cylinder, along with the clutch master cylinder. Left siting for years they corrode and the seals go bad. good luck, Carl B.

Did anyone happen to capture any pictures from behind the Garage? Where the food was being prepared and served? If so I would like to have a copy... thanks, Carl B.

Hi Alan: Actually - that time line came from Nissan originally, and I edited some of the later data listed. Nissan had it at one time on their web site - of course all the Nissan web sites have been changed over time. I did not put the "goes on sale" there, that was indeed Nissan's term. To answer some of the questions about the event - I have written a couple of friends that may have attended, so I'll wait to see what their reply looks like. I will say that at the time - Mr. Goertz was still in good standing with Nissan. Mr. Goertz was a friend of both Bob Sharp and Mr. Kawazoe - so it would not surprise me to see him present. One thing I have ran into is the lose use of terms in lue of proper names ie. "The New York International Auto Show", "The New York Auto Show" and the "New York Show"...makes it hard to determin which show is being discussed. As I understand it - the "New York Auto Show" features all the new models for sale, and is promoted by the Auto Dealers Association, whereas the "New York International Auto Show" is the event for the Manufacturers, and their displays move from major city to major city around the country. I looked it up once, not too long ago - but as I recall the "New York International Auto Show" was held in Jan. I'll get back on this when I hear back from a few friends. Who knows perhaps they can shed some light and/or dig out some old photo's. FWIW, Carl B.

I would have bought that in a heart beat... great find... Carl B.

Hi Guys: Looking at the pictures below - would you say that these are pictures of the same person taken perhaps a few years between, and showing the face at a slightly different camera angle... Or would two people working at Nissan Design just happen to look so much alike? The eyes and nose look the same, the height of the person looks about the same and eye brows look about the same - although one pictures shows a guy messed up at work and the other shows a guy dressed for a picture with his hair combed... Same guy or not? FWIW, Carl B.

I think most people believe that. Unless your name is Albright Goertz - in that case cars are born in the mind of one person if they are to be successful. According to Mr. Goertz only mundane, carbon copies come from environments where "teams" and/or "committees" are involved in the design process. Mr. Goertz would allow no-one to interfere with "his" designs. He tells us that in several articles related to the subject of design and reinforces it in his autobiography. One of the striking differences between Goertz and Matsuo is their personal design philosophy. Where Goertz speaks often of his opinion that design is a matter of a singular focus, much the same as the art of Painting. Matsuo tells us a story of how he and his team, adapted too and incorporated the suggestions and requirements that came his way though-out the design process. Indeed the car they finished was all but completely different than the car he started with. Finished styling is a matter of very subtle changes in form or line making a huge difference in the over-all visual impact. Goertz made what I would consider minor changes to the existing Silvia design - but the changes he made pleased the eye of Management and got the car out of the design studio and into limited production. For that reason Goertz is credited with the design. If Mr. Tamura is proven correct - that is to say that he alone was responsible for the fine body lines that comprise the finished prototype of the Z Car - - he may well prove Mr. Goertz correct. On the other hand - if the Z Car final design evolved over time per Mr. Matsuo's story, with different team members contributing, with design requirements changing, and still such a beautiful end result was achieved - then it proves that Mr. Goertz was full of B.S. Related to the process of design within Nissan, Mr. Matsuo acknowledges right up front that just prior to his taking responsibility for the styling of sports cars - Nissan's design processes were undergoing significant change. Mr. Matsuo writes: "Anyway. this period saw the introduction of full-sized clay models being employed in the styling room. along with the use of pastels and marker pens for sketches. The whole process of automotive design was in the midst of a radical transformation at the Nissan works" That is why I believe it is fair to say that Mr. Goertz did provide some benefit to Nissan as far as his design consulting contract goes. Overall - I believe Mr. Matsuo's story of the Z Car, mostly because when you lay it out on a time line, it is collaborated by events reported elsewhere, by other people. This will be a very interesting story to follow. thanks Kats!! Carl B.

Hi Alan: Very interesting picture indeed. The picture in the book (below) seems to have cut Mr. Tamura out... or perhaps it was just an oversight.?? Nonetheless, having worked with many "teams" of people on many design projects - I understand and agree that you can expect to hear different perspectives from different team members related to who contributed what and when. I do wonder why Mr. Matsuo seems to want to acknowledge everyone in his story of the Z Car - yet so little mention of Mr. Tamura. An interesting turn of events - and it will be even more interesting to see what comes out of Kats interviews with the people involved.. Anyway I look at it - there seems to be major disagreement in this area between Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Tamura. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Stephen: He seems to be seeking mention now. Yes - I see Mr. Matsuo's story of the Z Car as being very "team" oriented - he mentions several of the members as they either started with him, or came along a bit later. He calls Mr. Yoshida his "right-hand man" etc. Mr. Matsuo writes that in the Summer of 1967 Mr. Yoshida was transfered to another Dept. - and Mr. Matsuo had to continue with the Plan A prototype by himself. It was only when it came time to incorporate changes and so on that he was aided by Mr. Tamura. That is a very long way from Mr. Tamura having done the final or finished "styling" of the car. I guess we will know more as Kats interviews all the people that he can. I just don't think it is time replace Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Yoshida with Mr. Tamura, as the person that styled the beautiful body lines of the Z Car. Without a whole lot more investigation. If we can't believe Mr. Matsuo on such an important fact - can we believe anything? I don't see this as a small misunderstanding or slight difference of opinion at this point. Could turn out that way... we'll have to wait and see.. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Alan: First - thanks for the Post - very interesting subject. To your question above - I doubt anyone can provide evidence at this point. I don't find anything that states that the 240Z "went on sale". Many of the articles from that period say to expect to see the cars at the Dealerships after the first of the year. The Article in the New York Times published the 23rd of Oct. 1969 reporting on the event held the 22 Of Oct. 69 in New York city - said in part. -- - Quoted in part - as fair use - to comment on a recent N.Y.Times article - - - - Datsun Enters the Middle-Priced Sports Car Market - The Nissan Motor Company Ltd., which has built it reputation on economy cars, is making a determined bid for the middle-priced sports car market. The company showed its Datsun 240Z sports car at its international preview yesterday at the Pierre Hotel. The car is expected to be competitive with Detroit-built sports-type of cars and European sports cars. It will sell here for $3,500.00 and includes such features as independent rear suspension, front disk brakes, overhead cam engine and flow-though fresh air ventilation. The company designated its newest entry as "an all new, personalized, two-passenger fastback" and said it was Datsun's answer to the high-performance personal car market. - - end quote - - - -- FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Kats: It would seem that Mr. Matsuo's assessment of Mr. Tamura's contributions are far smaller than Mr. Tamura feels were true. Mr. Matsuo seems to be saying that the styling was pretty much complete - but due to changes to accommodate the L24 for Mr. K, changes requested by Engineering to accommodate the independent suspension and add more track width to accommodate snow chains etc. Mr. Matsuo writes: "When the time came to incorporate the necessary changes to the body width and so on, I was aided by Mr Tamura with the measurements, but it was very difficult to retain the proportions of the vehicle. Having solved all the detail problems, a clay model was presented towards the end of the Autumn." All in all - it sounds like Mr. Tamura simply scaled up the original design more so than actually having done the "styling". I would wonder why Mr. Matsuo gave Mr. Tamura such little mention if Mr. Tamura had contributed so much. Do you plan to talk to Mr. Matsuo about this? FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Kats: Great story... Can you tell us which one of these men is Mr.Tamura? Or if he is not in that picture - do you have any pictures of him working on the car? thanks, Carl B.

Hi Bill: Thanks again for Hosting a very special gathering. It was a perfect day for the event, and the food, ah the food... I'm still stuffed. Special thanks to your son Bill, who worked around the clock as well. I got to meet a few more of our "Internet" friends, and see some very nice Classic, Collectible and Special Interest Cars in addition to the Z's. Of course there is never enough time to spend with everyone. Sorry I didn't get a chance to talk to the owner of one of my favorite cars - the Caddy XLR that was there - it was striking. Of course your 71 is still one of the most beautifully done competition cars to be seen anywhere. I wonder how many people noticed that HLS30 00016 still has its original 1969 dated spark plug wires. We could spend an hour looking at the incredible detail work that went into the Z Wolf and the Blue Oval Z. I got a few pointers from John Thomas... he pointed me home and said to stay there ;-) Good to see Ol' Miss won. There was a Peal White Feb. 71 production car there that had both the side and rear deck lid fresh air vents - and I recall seeing a couple of them come into the Dealership that way. I had just started to talk to the owner when my attention was diverted to a CR-X... ah just not enough time. I saw Will {hls30.com} there, but before I could get over to see him, he was lost in the crowd again. The Fuel Injection system on Derek's Z was amazing... neat to see it go from casting prototype one year - to a running engine the next. Beautiful job... It's worth the trip just to see your Z Garage... thanks again for having us all.... it's these types of "enthusiasts gatherings" that keep us all interested in and enjoying the hobby. kind regards, Carl

Hi Arne: Yes - the 71 to 72 Model Year transition is an interesting time. Nissan lists the 72 Model Year as starting with HLS30 46000. However we have several cars that had "most" of the 72 features and which were sold as 72 Models - with build dates of 08 of 71 - mixed in with cars that were indeed 71 Model Year cars. It "seems" that if the car got the newer Type B tranny and rearward mounted differential - it was sold as a 72. Of course the early 72 Model Year cars did not get the self retracting seat belts, nor did they even have the pocket in the floorboards for them. They still had the vertical rear window defroster lines and on the center console they did not have the red seat belt warning lights... At the Dealership - we were getting both Late Model 71 and early 72 Z's on the same truck load.. FWIW, Carl B.