Jump to content

IGNORED

1970 240Z Works Rally - the road to restoration


Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, kats said:

I have two old films , 1958 Australian rally, and 1970 Safari rally. I wish I have them digitalized so I can show you. 

Perhaps a letter to the manager of the new (?) Nissan Heritage Zone -- listed as a part of the Global Headquarters Gallery in Yokohama -- might find them willing to support the cost of digitizing the two reels of historic film.  The NHZ includes a small reference library and would seem a logical curator for films such as these.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


3 minutes ago, Namerow said:

Perhaps a letter to the manager of the new (?) Nissan Heritage Zone -- listed as a part of the Global Headquarters Gallery in Yokohama -- might find them willing to support the cost of digitizing the two reels of historic film.  The NHZ includes a small reference library and would seem a logical curator for films such as these.

Thanks Namerow, one thing I am worried about is how I can protect these if Nissan says ‘ they are not belonging  to you ! Get them back to Nissan ‘ .

 I will start a new thread for this when I succeed to digitize.

Kats

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

So Nissan provides the early 240Z to race teams in the USA expecting them to go racing with them.

More specifically, NMC USA - either officially or semi-officially ("come and take this damaged car away...") - provided a handful of HLS30Us to race teams in the USA. Bob Sharp's first car appears to have been a personal deal between Kawazoe san, via Usami san, and Sharp. A damaged show car, no less. 

15 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

The engines are prepared for race use and high-rpm use and Nissan doesn't tell them the crankshaft is not fit for the purpose.

You're projecting quite a lot here. Your "...not fit for the purpose" is doing a lot of heavy lifting (some understatement here...). Says who? The cars in question were not provided or sold as race cars. You might as well point out that the fuel tanks, suspension, brakes, transmissions, differentials, wheels, tyres and cigarette lighters were also "...not fit for purpose" in race cars. These were road cars and they required preparation even for production-class racing. The other cars they were competing with often had their own weak spots and requirements for evolutionary parts, even the Porsches.

15 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

The cars race, the crankshaft breaks yet you want us to think it's not Nissan's fault.

As far as I understand it, the crankshafts suffered from a harmonic (something very common in straight sixes) which caused damage to flywheel bolts, flywheels and clutches under prolonged high rpm use. The crankshafts themselves did not "break" and they were - clearly - being expected to perform far beyond their original design parameters. So, yes. Hardly Nissan Japan's fault. 

Without knowing what was going on between NMC USA and NMC Japan - remembering that we are constantly told that the L24 was specified "for the USA" in a car that was "designed for the USA" and that the engine was the personal choice of Yutaka Katayama, which is of course nonsense - I'd say it is jumping to conclusions to blame the engineers back in Japan. 

15 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

Realising there is a problem they then change the crankshaft and fit it to all cars going forward rather than using the one you state has "fitness for expected use". Sorry not buying that explanation whatsoever.

That's a fairly simplistic - if not bowdlerised - version of events. Plenty of details on these cars were subject to evolution, improvement and supersession. Mr Brock and his followers may well believe that his employees 'discovered' a design fault and were part of the cure, but Nissan were already on the case - just as they were with many other details on the cars.

If you follow the part numbers, the homologations and supersessions they give a good picture of what was going on crankshaft-wise, particularly when you look at homologated crankshaft weights. You seem to want to paint the early L24 crankshafts as some kind of mistake, but I believe you need to take other factors - not least production costings, late specification of a sedan engine for a sports car due to the need to mitigate power-sapping anti-pollution devices and the whole question of who was in charge/responsible for the specifications in the first place. Apparently NMC USA and their president get to collect plaudits for success but dodge any finger of blame for perceived problems?  

Meanwhile, those same engineers at Nissan were planning and developing their Works race and rally LR24 engines...

15 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

Wonder which crankshaft the rally 240Z were fitted with?

E3141 8-bolt crankshafts with sufficient counterweighting for competition use, made from higher strength steel (NCM45) than the stock L24 crankshafts:

Works LR24 crank-15.jpg

     

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 9/11/2022 at 6:30 PM, xs10shl said:

If I may be selfish for the moment and bring the topic away from crankshafts, I'd like to point out that this is actually #70 - if one looks closely, one can see the "6" in the carnet plate, where there should have been a "5" for car #62.

Just an FYI, in case you didn’t see them in the Datsun Showroom at the time:
 
That image and another was printed on one half of a Showroom Poster - each image was about 3w’x2h’. So the total size of the Poster was about 3’ wide by 4’ high. The images were printed head to head,  or top to top. The Poster was then folded in half - and hung over a support wire that ran wall to wall across the center of the showroom.
 
There were two or maybe three different Posters - that featured the EAS Rally 240Z’s and the Monte Carlo 240Z's. 
Edited by Carl Beck
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Carl Beck said:
Just an FYI, in case you didn’t see them in the Datsun Showroom at the time:
 
That image and another was printed on one half of a Showroom Poster - each image was about 3w’x2h’. So the total size of the Poster was about 3’ wide by 4’ high. The images were printed head to head,  or top to top. The Poster was then folded in half - and hung over a support wire that ran wall to wall across the center of the showroom.
 
There were two or maybe three different Posters - that featured the EAS Rally 240Z’s and the Monte Carlo 240Z's. 

Thanks Carl for sharing that information.  Unfortunately I was just a toddler, so I missed out! it would be something special to have that poster collection now.

Laughing a little bit to myself here about the display you describe, because there were probably very few US customers who even understood what rallying entailed. Most probably asked themselves why on Earth would they ever want to off-road their brand new Z, ha!  Times have changed- today, everyone wants an SUV.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

@Tweeds had a question about the mud flaps, so here is a little info on the evolution of the Works mud flaps.  I've only included the early configurations that I know a little something about - I'd imagine there are other setups as well I'm not as familiar with.  These are also not the greatest pictures, but they'll give some idea about the various styles the early cars employed.

The first picture is 8D-420, an early test vehicle.  Was this dual setup used in competition? it appears to be designed for serious gravel roads. 

The second picture is the early setup used through 1970 and 1971, which consisted of two outer metal straps, approximately 5/8" wide, bolted together and thru-bolted onto the car.  These were accompanied by an inner, thicker metal bracket, which roughly held the mud flap in place, and could likely carry the weight by itself. I say "roughly", because there are several period photos showing the flaps having been moved backwards from their standard position during a rally stage. My guess is that the Works team were probably concerned about the mud flaps catching on something while driving, so they implemented a kind of outer "spring" system, that would give way, allowing the flap to move rearward, should it become entangled on a branch or rock.

The third picture is from the 1972 Monte-Carlo car #5, and represents a later flap system employed for 1972, where the flap was more firmly fixed in place to the lower panel using a bracket.

8d420.jpg

696.jpg

RF-071.jpg

Edited by xs10shl
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@HS30-H great picture.  Folks also can see the clever later exhaust routing, which added considerable ground clearance.  In addition, something I had not noticed before on the earlier cars - a rear c-chaped bracket, which I assume is for one of those mobile jackstands?  A device like that would only be possible with the re-routing of the exhaust.  It's clearly very bent out of position,  to the point where it's likely not usable, but it's mere presence may have saved the fuel tank from whatever the car backed into.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Here's a fun little detail seen on the early cars.  The rear light pods were affixed from the rear of the car (sometimes using sheet metal screws?), so they could be removed from behind and outside.  I imagine there were several reasons for this: surely, to facilitate the changing of a bulb without having to open and unload the trunk.  Perhaps also: to provide an easy way to swap out the entire assembly, should it be damaged during the rally. 

I'm not entirely confident that the lights were always affixed with screws, as I have not seen them affixed this way on another car.  For example, the included picture of an earlier car does not appear to have screws, but it does have the quick-change rear panel installed.  From what I can see with my car: they appear to be original to the car, or at least installed in-period.  That said, it's possible that the lights were held in place using other means, such as being just loosely glued in place, and could therefore be pulled off by hand, without tools.  But this is just a guess.

From what I can tell, all the rally cars campaigned in 1970 and 1971 had this feature.  I don't exactly know with what car the practice ceased, but around late 1971, Nissan stopped fitting a rear panel which could accommodate this feature. I assume they also eliminated the "external-change" feature along with it, but perhaps they just eliminated the custom rear panel. Another possibility is that the feature remained, but that Nissan perhaps altered the lenses to be removable from the housing. Again, this is just speculation. If someone is willing to go tug on the rear lenses of Nissan's cars and see what happens, perhaps we can get a few answers!

 

01E62D4A-78D8-401F-8675-24DA667BF6A8_1_201_a.jpeg

0F74EA26-F726-4A9F-B3F3-78B876EC409E_1_105_c.jpeg

696.jpg

Edited by xs10shl
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm surprised that they ran with the rear interior panel.?!?  What I just noticed is the enlarged tail light opening in the exterior finish panel.  Also on the car in your post 81.  They must have wanted access to the housing from the outside of the car.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 26th-Z said:

I'm surprised that they ran with the rear interior panel.?!?  What I just noticed is the enlarged tail light opening in the exterior finish panel.  Also on the car in your post 81.  They must have wanted access to the housing from the outside of the car.

Yep, an enlarged tail light opening in the rear exterior panel, thru some time in 1971, I believe. (I referred to it as a "valance" in my post, but I edited the post for consistency.) 

Works rally interiors that I've seen were almost fully trimmed out, perhaps to keep with the illusion that these were production cars. The interior panels themselves of course don't weigh much, and the Works team used rubber mats in place of carpeting/sound insulation.  The panels also served as protection for the wiring harness, fuel lines, etc., and to keep miscellaneous spares and tools from falling into the wrong places.  Period photos of trunks that I've seen were crammed with all kinds of supplies needed for field repairs - oddly enough, not so different from the strategy I employ when I go on a road trip!

Here's a picture of my car during MC '71, showing the same rear tail panel, featuring enlarged holes for the tail light assembly. (credit: Nissan Global Media)

002.closeup.jpg

Edited by xs10shl
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, xs10shl said:

Yep, an enlarged tail light opening in the rear exterior panel, thru some time in 1971, I believe.

In fact it seems it was restricted to the 1970 RAC Rally and 1971 Monte Carlo Rallye batches of Works cars, as the 1971 East African Safari Rally batch and onward batches of cars didn't have the cut-away finisher panel holes.

There was clearly - as is so often seen on these cars - an evolutionary process going on here. The very first batch of cars sent overseas - for the 1970 RAC Rally - featured the cut-away finishers, but not the extra self-tappers. Instead they had threaded studs inserted where the normal fixing screws would thread into (those pesky...) captive nuts in the plastic lamp housings, and butterfly nuts were used to hold them in place. This allowed the lamp units to be removed fairly quickly without having to take off the finishers:

696-Lamp-fixing-1.JPG    

Obviously the 1971 Monte Carlo Rallye batch (an event where rear quarter damage was more likely) improved on this with the addition of spring nuts on the body and self-tappers passing through the plastic lamp housings, so it was no longer necessary to fiddle around undoing butterfly nuts inside the car. Better!

However, for the 1971 Safari they reverted to uncut rear finishers. The finishers were secured by self-tappers (rather than the stock plastic rivets) so could at least be removed fairly easily. 

9 hours ago, 26th-Z said:

I'm surprised that they ran with the rear interior panel.?!? 

That area of the car was a good place for storage. They tended to store the onboard jack near there, as well as a host of spares, ropes, jack base, shovel etc housed inside a fabricated pocket. LOTS of storage on these cars: 

1223-Storage-1.JPG

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A view of the rear interior of the car.  There's a few things to see here that are not frequently seen- I won't go into all the minutiae, other than to point out a few obvious features: a few of the features which I'd label "stock PZR" from the parts manual (for lack of a better description) include the spare tire cap and 4-point seat belt shoulder strap mounts. Then there are a few obvious Works features, such as the roll bar mounts, some drilled access holes, and a Works fuel delivery system. There are several more details that enthusiasts can spend the weekend spotting!

Also visible is a rusted rear quarter panel, which helps make this Lightweight Spec even lighter today than when new.  Most of the trunk area appears quite servicable, but that rusted area will need to be fixed, with new metal.

Of note, the 4 silver rivet nuts now occupying the existing spare-tire hold-down mounting holes on the spare tire cap are my "quickee" addition to the car- that's unlikely to be how it was done in period. I had a show deadline, and I needed to affix the spare tire bungee brackets using the same existing holes. The only options that I could see were to either remove the gas tank to access that area, or add a few rivet nuts - a 2 hour job vs 5 minutes. Done and done!

Also, the fuel pumps are obviously brand new - a prior owner had installed later pumps of a non-original make and type, probably decades ago, so I put these on the original brackets, so the car could be displayed.

IMG_0744.jpeg

Edited by xs10shl
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am so excited about to see this picture.After spending hours of looking at the picture  I found a Z432-R doesn’t have a pair of shoulder strap mounts for the passenger side . The difference between them is a persons on board.Maybe it doesn’t a thing to be mentioned , does it? 

Here are the pictures which I took recently, 1969 Z432-R . 

I have a question. Do you see the two brackets at the duct opening for the blower motor ? 
I am thinking the brackets could be only for PZR. If so, how about a PZR body Works car like yours . I am curious about it. Also , a mounting bracket for an igniter, do you see it in your car ?

Kats

DA35C72F-8C93-4034-8FDB-135B4D4B83C7.jpeg

AF0358C8-7687-4C17-A9E8-AC18984BEB85.jpeg

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kats I'll be on the lookout for the brackets when we get the dashboard off - might be a little while yet before we get to it.

Curious about the Z432-R without the passenger shoulder harness mounts.  Did you happen to notice if the braces under the hole location were installed?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, xs10shl said:

@kats I'll be on the lookout for the brackets when we get the dashboard off - might be a little while yet before we get to it.

Curious about the Z432-R without the passenger shoulder harness mounts.  Did you happen to notice if the braces under the hole location were installed?

Yes , I checked it and confirmed nothing there. Please see this picture, a passenger side (Left seat ) rear deck. 
Kats

7D25CA25-9535-4FCC-A784-B4C4EBFC8C29.jpeg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/5/2022 at 6:42 AM, kats said:

I am so excited about to see this picture.After spending hours of looking at the picture  I found a Z432-R doesn’t have a pair of shoulder strap mounts for the passenger side . The difference between them is a persons on board.Maybe it doesn’t a thing to be mentioned , does it?

Yes! 432-R was certainly 'driver focused' and standard equipment 4-point Takata harness was only provided on driver's side. Similarly, 432-R only got a headrest on the driver's side.

Early Works rally 240Zs were a kind of 'hybrid' of 432-R bodyshell parts mixed with upgraded details, Sports/Race Option parts and hand fabrication. The bodyshells were built in small batches designated as rally cars and therefore could incorporate a little extra attention and detailing on the line at Hiratsuka (such as the extra doublers for the passenger side four-point harness shoulder strap mounts under the 'cheesegrater' deck panel) before being transported as bare shells to the Works rally shop at Oppama where the build-up could begin. 

 

Attached photo shows stock 1970 432-R rear 'cheesegrater' deck with shoulder harness mounts on driver's side only:

 

PZR rear deck-1.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@HS30-H Your comments made me revisit some old PZR pictures. I had not payed too much attention before, but all my photos also show only the Z432-R driver-side mounting holes. Unclear to me whether it was possible to spec out a Z432-R with L+R harness mounts, or whether it was only the Works cars.

Edited by xs10shl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, xs10shl said:

@HS30-H Your comments made me revisit some old PZR pictures. I had not payed too much attention before, but all my photos also show only the Z432-R driver-side mounting holes. Unclear to me whether it was possible to spec out a Z432-R with L+R harness mounts, or whether it was only the Works cars.

You would only have been able to fit 4-point harnesses on the driver's side, as there were no shoulder strap mounts/anchor points on the passenger side. Mounts could feasibly be added after the fact (I've done this on my 432-R replica project car because I wanted both sides the same) but they need a doubler underneath or - preferably - the welded-in L-shaped factory reinforcements and captive nuts as seen on the driver's side.

So this is another one of those Works rally car-specific differences. The Works rally team fabricators were able to specify non-standard additions and modifications literally before the bodyshells were welded together.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Today's upload shows a view from the front of the car.  On the right side of the car is the FIAMM air horn assembly.  To my eye, this (plus the accompanying compressor) appears to be a basic unit, most frequently seen on a period Ferrari.  Just based on pictures I've seen of other Works cars, there doesn't appear to be a standard compressor unit that Nissan incorporated, and the horn location appeared to vary from car to car.  It's actuated via the standard horn pad on the steering wheel, and alternatively through a foot button on the passenger-side floor, akin to how a windscreen washer fluid button would be placed on an old car.  Also shown are the oil cooler, fog light electrics, and hot air tubing, which runs from the headlight buckets to the heater box in the cabin. 

Of particular curiosity is a nondescript 1"x5" vented box located on the left side of the car, which is a part of the main headlight circuit.  This box contains what appears to be four resistive wires wound around 4 insulators, and is controlled via a large 4-position dial on the center console, which is labelled "HEAD RHEO" in period photos (which I take to mean "Headlight Rheostat"). [EDIT: On examination, this label is an example of me mis-remembering.  The console label actually reads "HEAD SELECT". But I have always assumed the design of the wire in the box resembles the feature-set of a 3-position rheostat, so I have been operating on the assumption the dial was a rheostat control.] This same dial is visible on several of the early Works cars, but appears to be implemented differently (and potentially not-at-all) on some of the later cars. 

Here's how it's wired: when the console dial is "Off", the headlight circuit is completed via ground: the headlights operate normally using the settings on the stalk, and the dial/box is not part of the circuit.  When the dial is placed in one of the three "on" selections, the headlight circuit is routed from the stalk through this box in one of several different settings, introducing what appears to be an "in-line" load of various resistances on the headlight circuit.  Just to be clear, the stalk continues it's role as the master headlight setting, but this dial serves as a way to further adjust headlight settings after it's been turned on by the driver, presumably by adding resistance to the headlight circuit. As of now, my box is not working properly, and the lights don't come on when it's in one of the three "on" positions (perhaps due to an open circuit?) so I cant yet determine exactly how it's intended to work.  This box is one of several head-scratchers that I have yet to fully understand the true nature and function of.  Any ideas?

If anyone is curious to see how this box is wired, I've attached the wiring diagram for you to look at, with the relevant sections highlighted.

IMG_0894.jpeg

Wiring+Diagram.jpg

IMG_8626.jpeg

Edited by xs10shl
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, xs10shl said:

Of particular curiosity is a nondescript 1"x5" vented box located on the left side of the car, which is a part of the main headlight circuit.  This box contains what appears to be four resistive wires wound around 4 insulators, and is controlled via a large 4-position dial on the center console, which is labelled "HEAD RHEO" in period photos (which I take to mean "Headlight Rheostat").  This same dial is visible on several of the early Works cars, but appears to be implemented differently (and potentially not-at-all) on some of the later cars. 

As mentioned privately, I honestly think this is case of mistaken identity. The dash control labelled 'Head Rheo' is - surely? - the dimmer switch for the navigator-specific auxiliary lighting ('P' Light illumination for maps, timers and Haldas). I don't see any reason why it would be necessary to have a rheostat-controlled dimming function of headlamps, spot lamps and fog lamps on a rally car. 

I've got one of the 'mystery' boxes too (leftovers from Works activities here in the UK) and - notably - the wire colours are different than on yours. I have three reds and a black going into a square 4-spade male connector: Diode Assy-1.jpgDiode Assy-2 .jpgDiode Assy-3.jpgDiode Assy-4.jpg

Referencing a factory carnet import inventory for the 1971 RAC Rally, I see Works part number 'Y9821-22438 Diode a**'y' which seems to fit the bill as it is listed amongst other auxiliary lighting parts. 

Would it not be more likely that this Diode box acts as a one-way 'gate' in the lighting system of the car, helping to protect against switching combinations that would otherwise overload/mess up the wiring? I'm absolutely not any kind of expert on auto electrics, but it seems to me that there's a lot going on with the Works rally car lighting system that is not apparent to us on the outside looking in, and certainly so with regard to the different combinations of lighting possible with the column switch, the individual fog & spot lamp switches, a master lighting switch and the push-to-pass momentary switch that (I think?) you have on the end of your car's indicator stalk?

 

Edited by HS30-H
Forum software likes 'Boobs' but not 'A**'y'...
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@HS30-H Thx for the info. Part of my confusion is that I mis-remembered the labelling on the console, and when I re-examined my pictures, the dial was labelled "HEAD.SELECT", and not "HEAD RHEO".  My confusion lay in the fact that the internals of the box appeared to contain resistive wiring, making me think of it as being some sort of rheostat. 

In sort, the stalk is as you described, and works as expected when the "Head Select" switch is off.  It's also possible that there is a jumper cable I'm missing that somehow wires combinations of the 6 lights together in one easy-to-us switch - and that how I've got it wired now is incomplete. 

I've included a closeup of the console dial here for others to look at, with the "HEAD.SELECT", so folks know what is being discussed. Sorry for the dark picture, it wasn't very bright to begin with.

console dial.jpg

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Works Lightweight cars made extensive use of fiberglass panels and acrylic windows to reduce curb weight.   As an example, the rear deck is made of fiberglass, with an ultra-thin acrylic window bonded to the frame.  It's quite light - I can hold it with my thumb. 

IMG_0958.jpeg

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Who's Online   2 Members, 0 Anonymous, 62 Guests (See full list)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Guidelines. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.