Somewhere along the line I remember seeing a quality control checklist used by Nissan for the program. Maybe that would provide some insights? Google search links me to what appears to be the New Zealand Z Car Club and no permission to view the attachment to the forum post which is a copy of the checklist.

I vaguely remember seeing it on here somewhere but cant find it.

24 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

The ad copy says that it came with Restoration literature. There's a picture of what looks like photocopied pages. Is there anything in there about the engine details? Or is it just vague statements about remanufactured engines?

@Zed Head I am aware of 2 promotional brochures related to the Vintage Restoration Program. One is red with "Rebirth" on the cover the other is yellow with "Spirit". I was able to purchase a yellow one from eBay, it contains an overview of the history of Z models up to the 300ZX and a little about the race cars. There is a copy of the yellow brochure online here

The vehicle came with a photo copy of the red brochure. If anyone is aware of either a digital copy or physical copy of the red brochure, I would certainly be interested in it. The Red brochure states the following regarding Engines:

The engine and transmission are completely disassembled, cleaned and analyzed. From the engine block to the smallest nut and bolt, the parts are laid out on tables, so they can be inspected and, if necessary replaced. When available, genuine Nissan parts are used. And in cases when non-Nissan are used, quality non-OEM parts are approved by Nissan engineers, specifically for use on these restored cars. All external engine parts such as the block, oil pan and air cleaner, are painted their original factory colors. Many ancillary components, including the alternator, starter motor and fuel pump are replaced with new units or ones that have been re-manufactured to our stringent standards.

@zspert thank you for the recommendations, I will pursue a full compression test and valve clearance checkout.

@HS30-H thank you for these great pictures!

I don't want to hijack the theme of this thread being about BaT and other online listings too much, but If anyone is interested, there are some really neat videos of the vintage restoration process in the links below:

Original Z Program Footage - This is video from Pierre'Z Restoration Program for Nissan

3 more Z program cars from Pierre'Z Restorations (I think my car might be shown at 10:44 mark but not sure)

Autoweek July 1997 - Z restoration program with Pierre Perrott at Pierre'Z Service Center.

Edited 19 hours ago19 hr by deanhuff

4 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

AER Manufacturing in Carrolton, TX remanufactured the engines.

3 hours ago, Zed Head said:

There are different levels though. Sometimes valve seats are checked for wear and just recut, or if they look okay they might just be lapped. Sometimes they are removed and replaced. That's the question at hand. If they were all removed and replaced as part of the rebuild, and the program was done after hardened seats were introduced, then they probably have hardened seats.

An old AER document probably has the information.

So the engines were reportedly 'remanufactured' at AER Manufacturing, but the photos from two different Japanese magazine articles on the VZ Program show a partly assembled engine (in one) and two in-process cylinder heads (in the other), clearly not at AER.

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

I'm here for the puzzle.

There often seem to be missing pieces - or pieces that don't fit - in the VZ Program story...

45 minutes ago, 240 in OZ said:

Somewhere along the line I remember seeing a quality control checklist used by Nissan for the program. Maybe that would provide some insights? Google search links me to what appears to be the New Zealand Z Car Club and no permission to view the attachment to the forum post which is a copy of the checklist.

I vaguely remember seeing it on here somewhere but cant find it.

The document is 34 pages long, it doesn't mention who did the work. It also doesn't mention who did the body restoration, paint and assembly. There were at least 5 Datsun restoration companies involved in the program. There is a master sheet listing all the cars and the companies responsible for each one.

Two of them confirmed to me the engines and gearbox were sent out to be rebuilt, that's from people involved in the program and not armchair experts who had nothing to do with it. Now that doesn't mean every single engine was sent out, the early ones may have been built up to check the process and parts required. If you watch the videos @deanhuff linked to you can see the different companies involved. @zspert was one of those who worked closely with Pierre and also supplied parts to the program. I tend to listen when he speaks!

Edited 20 hours ago20 hr by SpeedRoo

@SpeedRoo Thanks for the addition, I scoured the internet and found the checklist document via the wayback machine

Cylinder head checklist #4 states "new seats"...so it looks like hardend valve seats were in the protocol.

Edited 18 hours ago18 hr by deanhuff
referenced SpeedRoo username incorrectly.

Hi Dean

Thanks for finding the document I was referring to. Based on this, chalk one up for me!

That document should be downloaded then uploaded to the Resources area before it disappears. I saved a copy. Not sure which category it might belong in. Maybe the Vintage program should be a separate category.

https://www.classiczcars.com/files/

or

https://www.classiczcars.com/articles/

3 hours ago, deanhuff said:

@Zed Head I am aware of 2 promotional brochures related to the Vintage Restoration Program. One is red with "Rebirth" on the cover the other is yellow with "Spirit". I was able to purchase a yellow one from eBay, it contains an overview of the history of Z models up to the 300ZX and a little about the race cars. There is a copy of the yellow brochure online here

The vehicle came with a photo copy of the red brochure. If anyone is aware of either a digital copy or physical copy of the red brochure, I would certainly be interested in it. The Red brochure states the following regarding Engines:

The engine and transmission are completely disassembled, cleaned and analyzed. From the engine block to the smallest nut and bolt, the parts are laid out on tables, so they can be inspected and, if necessary replaced. When available, genuine Nissan parts are used. And in cases when non-Nissan are used, quality non-OEM parts are approved by Nissan engineers, specifically for use on these restored cars. All external engine parts such as the block, oil pan and air cleaner, are painted their original factory colors. Many ancillary components, including the alternator, starter motor and fuel pump are replaced with new units or ones that have been re-manufactured to our stringent standards.

@zspert thank you for the recommendations, I will pursue a full compression test and valve clearance checkout.

@HS30-H thank you for these great pictures!

I don't want to hijack the theme of this thread being about BaT and other online listings too much, but If anyone is interested, there are some really neat videos of the vintage restoration process in the links below:

Original Z Program Footage - This is video from Pierre'Z Restoration Program for Nissan

3 more Z program cars from Pierre'Z Restorations (I think my car might be shown at 10:44 mark but not sure)

Autoweek July 1997 - Z restoration program with Pierre Perrott at Pierre'Z Service Center.

Love the videos, lots of detail on how they built the cars up. Great find after all these years.

Have uploaded the file to the archives.

7 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

Two of them confirmed to me the engines and gearbox were sent out to be rebuilt, that's from people involved in the program and not armchair experts who had nothing to do with it.

The classiczcars.com knowledge base was pretty much built on the experience, expertise and forensic investigative curiosity of "armchair experts". Much of the historical data and official documentation you now take for granted - and quote from - made its public debut here thanks to enthusiastic amateurs.

In contrast, one of your "people involved in the program" has knocked out a couple of hardback books - to great fanfare - but which are packed with enough misconceptions, mis-captions and plain old mistakes as to make them all but worthless for entertainment let alone reference material. You'd be well advised to take care in choosing your gurus.

Just a few posts ago, the claim was made that "AER Manufacturing in Carrolton, TX remanufactured the engines." Sounds quite definitive, doesn't it? But...

8 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

Now that doesn't mean every single engine was sent out, the early ones may have been built up to check the process and parts required.

Thanks for the, er, clarification but the word "may" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Is it anything more than a guess that the incomplete engines photographed by two different Japanese magazine photographers just happened to be some of these "early ones", rather than any other explanation? At the very least the contrast between the two statements illustrates that a little pragmatism is required when investigating the 'facts' behind the legend.

The more I've read about the 'VZ Program' over the years, the more it seems to be revealed as something less than the well-planned and executed operation that its PR at the time would have us believe. A really great idea, less than ideally planned and executed, ending short of its original targets. The resulting cars are great in and of themselves and the story has paid dividends in terms of column inches, but overall the 'Program' seems like the proverbial swan - floating serenely on the surface whilst paddling furiously below...

I always enjoy it when our resident armchair expert (RAE) from across the pond makes assumptions that turn out to be wrong. To assume he knows the people I speak to for my background information is the level of arrogance, Just as he has done here: "In contrast, one of your "people involved in the program" has knocked out a couple of hardback books - to great fanfare - but which are packed with enough misconceptions, mis-captions and plain old mistakes as to make them all but worthless for entertainment let alone reference material. You'd be well advised to take care in choosing your gurus." I've never spoken to or been in contact with that person, nor do I have his books. Yet again RAE has gone far off the beaten track. Even the people I have spoken to didn't have a lot of good things to say about the program manager you refer to.

It's obvious from the photos from the Japanese magazines they are early cars, the cars in the pictures are instantly identifiable from the master list of the Vintage Z build. If you watch the videos @deanhuff posted links to you can see them at Pierre's shop. It's no great mystery but documented evidence. Just as they put the engines in conventionally at the beginning of the program, they got more efficient fitting rebuilt engines supplied by AER from below by lowering the car onto the assembly. Oh I forgot, RAE worships at the house of Japanese superiority and how could they be wrong having put some photos in a Japanese magazine. The VZ program was an American program, done in the USA and sold in the USA, not sure how the Japanese had much if anything to do with it.

48 minutes ago, SpeedRoo said:

I always enjoy it when our resident armchair expert (RAE) from across the pond makes assumptions that turn out to be wrong. To assume he knows the people I speak to for my background information is the level of arrogance

Another weird flex from you. I have no idea who the people you speak to for your "background information" (woohoo) are, nor did I assume to know them. If you think I did then you might like to do some re-reading. Arrogance? The person talking about "resident armchair experts" might want to look in a mirror occasionally.

And what's this "across the pond" thing about? Is it supposed to be some kind of slight? This forum has active members from across the globe and is much the better for it.

I mentioned the author of the two books in the context of certain sources being - arguably - less reliable witnesses than would be ideal, even given their proximity to events. The point being made seems to have sailed over your head.

1 hour ago, SpeedRoo said:

It's obvious from the photos from the Japanese magazines they are early cars, the cars in the pictures are instantly identifiable from the master list of the Vintage Z build. If you watch the videos @deanhuff posted links to you can see them at Pierre's shop. It's no great mystery but documented evidence. Just as they put the engines in conventionally at the beginning of the program, they got more efficient fitting rebuilt engines supplied by AER from below by lowering the car onto the assembly.

The whole reason I posted the photos from the magazine reports - with the engines/engine parts at Pierre's - was because of the post from Zed Head throwing doubt on the idea that they had been fully rebuilt. Obviously they were. But then the claim was made - baldly, without qualification or caveat - that AEM rebuilt them. Dangerous if swallowed whole. Both positions were wrong. You get my point about gurus? Probably not...

1 hour ago, SpeedRoo said:

Oh I forgot, RAE worships at the house of Japanese superiority and how could they be wrong having put some photos in a Japanese magazine.

Huh? Again, I posted the photos in response to a suggestion that the engines were not properly overhauled. The inference was that corners were cut (specifically in relation to valve seats) and the period magazine shots from Pierre's workshop tell a different story. Documentary evidence, for which I was thanked (gracefully) by an interested party whilst the person who made the suggestion of non-overhaul blithely moves on, otherwise unchallenged (LOL).

I don't know what the fact that the magazine articles happened to have been published in contemporary Japanese titles has to do with anything, except that you seem particularly exercised - if not slightly overexcited - by it. They showed the point I was making. Simple as that.

Oh and "...worships at the house of Japanese superiority..." is a good one, even if it exists solely in your imagination. These are, after all, Japanese cars so it seems germane to take the Japanese side of the story - at the very least - into account. I certainly wouldn't recommend ignoring it, even though the cars and the people who built them came from "across the pond"... Blind spot for you, perhaps?

1 hour ago, SpeedRoo said:

The VZ program was an American program, done in the USA and sold in the USA, not sure how the Japanese had much if anything to do with it.

Ha ha ha! Classic. One for the archives there. Comedy gold. Thank you.

Thinks: I'll park it up next to 'The Factory'.